God is not willing that anyone should perish, so why doesnt He make everyone believe in Jesus? Is it true that God has given everyone the ability to choose and that He wont force anyone to believe in Jesus? Why did God give lucifer the ability to choose to rebel against Him?
God is not willing that anyone should perish?
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depthdeception
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God created us with self-will because God desires us to share in the community which the persons of the Godhead enjoy. To be relational is to have self-will; it is the mark of the imago dei within us.
Any theological system which denies this does not have the slightest understanding about the nature of the image of God, and will inevitably dissolve into a thorough pantheism...that is, if its adherents are interested in being intellectually honest about their presuppositions.
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nobdysfool
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OK genius, what exactly is the image of God? And please provide solid scriptural support for whatever your answer is. I have asked this question many times here, and not one person has even attempted to provide a scriptural definition.
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depthdeception
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Re-read my post, genius. I said explicitly what I think the imago dei is. It is self-will, the capability of existing in relationship with others.
I would make an argument from Genesis 1 and 2. In Genesis 1, it is out of an internal dialogue within the Godhead that the determination to create humans "in the image of God." The plurality in this verse--whether referring to the Trinity or God's dialogue with angelic beings--insinuates relationality and is seen as one of the primal motivating reasons for creation.
Moreover, even more poignantly in Genesis 2, it the isolation of the man that brings about the determination to place the man within community by the creation of the woman. Additionally, the continuity between the two is emphasized in that their biology--as well as community--is immutable, for the two are to become one flesh, the interpenetration of their persons being realized in the community and exchange of self-will that will mark their relationship, even as it images the community and exchange of self-will that demarcates the unity of the three persons of the Godhead.
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Who are the ones he is patient towards? In the context, it is clear. Some count his coming as slow:
2Pe 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
But the Lord is not slow in His coming; instead, He is patient, waiting for all of those who would believe to come to Him. So the any and all are the ones who will come to Him. This text is not saying the Lord does not wish for any without qualification to perish. You have to pull it out of context to get that.
Who are the ones he is patient towards? In the context, it is clear. Some count his coming as slow:
2Pe 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
But the Lord is not slow in His coming; instead, He is patient, waiting for all of those who would believe to come to Him. So the any and all are the ones who will come to Him. This text is not saying the Lord does not wish for any without qualification to perish. You have to pull it out of context to get that.
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bibleblevr
Regular Member
God doesn't want people to perish, in the same way that a person watching the movie "Titanic" doesn't want the ship to sink. But lets face it, it would be a pretty crummy movie if all that happened is, the ship goes out to sea and comes back safely. The sinking ( and subsequent deaths) are necessary for the movie to be worth watching.
whether or not people can have "free-will" to choose or not, is a moot point in many ways. Imagine the must hardened atheist of all time. God can look down at him and say to himself," I think I will send a person to give him a tract" God knows quite well that a tract will not change this mans mind. God could also decide to send an angel to him and tell him God is real. God would know if this would tip him over the edge or not. God has everything imaginable to save this man, at his disposal. The atheist's "free-will" would not stand a chance If God sucked him up to heaven and brought him in the throne room of the Father. There is no possible way the atheist would deny God after that! I don't care if he has free-will or not!
God could choose to give the necessary evidence to turn any nonbeliever into a believer. By not doing this He destines them to hell, simple as that. Think to yourself, what caused you to decide you should become a Christan? was it a sudden realization of the truth of Christ? if so where did that come from. what was it? what ever it was, God knew that if he gave you an ounce less you would not have chosen him. But, through his grace, he gave you the nudge so that you believed.
Satan was given the ability to rebel, so that he could inadvertently do God's will. If Satan wasn't here, then man would never have sinned, and if man had never sinned, then Jesus would never have died, and Jesus's death was the plan from the beginning.
1 Corinthians 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
God destined His son to be crucified before the world begain. Satan thought he was winning when Christ was nailed to the cross, However, Satan did not know that this act spelled his defeat.
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bibleblevr
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Please, in plain English, explain to me why a relationship can't exist without self-will. And by the way, what is the definition of self-will going to be defined as during this thread, for the purpose of clarity.
This reminds me of a discussion we had together on a previous thread, and we seem to be picking up at the exact place we left off.
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depthdeception
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To my understanding, self-will is actualized in the ability to freely and completely give oneself to another. Through the self-willingness of the triune persons, the Godhead given themselves entirely to one another, thus creating community-in-unity. To be created in the image of God, then, is to bear this primal aspect of relatedness, the capacity for self-giving and of receiving completely the other in the realization of human/divine community.
A relationship without self-will is merely proximal: e.g., I am related to my dog in that I live in proximity to my dog. While I might have momentary emotional opinions about the worth of my dog, my personhood cannot be penetrated in relationality by my dog--that is, my dog cannot freely give himself in relationship to me, nor can I receive this self-giving.
The same is true of humans and the divine. Without self-will, it is impossible that humans might give themselves relationally to God; in such a scenario where human self-will was negated, the divine/human "relationship" would be merely proximate, and not in any way mirror the relationality of the Godhead, in whose image humanity is created.
This is why human/human and human/divine relationships are unique, for within them is the special capability of "becoming one flesh/spirit", of the realization of the circle of self-giving and reciprocity-in-other-receiving that demarcates the life which the Godhead enjoys from all eternity.
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T
Terrence Theodore
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hope_is_last_to_die -
Hi brother. Listen, I'm going to say things that you probably have not heard before, but please consider them all. The ONLY reason I'm saying these things is because it must be said if you are guys are going to understand where we reformed dudes is coming from. Whether you agree or not is of no consequence, we just want you to understand why we believe what we believe.
God is not willing that anyone should perish,
I want to say out the outset, that God Does and Does NOT will people to perish. I assure you, this is not double talk. Rather, these seeming opposing truths must be said, because both are in scripture (as we will see soon). Second, when talking about "God's will" in scripture, we MUST determine as to whether we mean "what God 'would like' to see happen," or "what God allows to occur;" as BOTH these of these are described as God's "will" in scripture. Third, it is ABSOLUTELY imperative to have some knowledge of hermanutics (the art and science of studying scripture). Why is this so important? Frankly, it is important because our Bible was not written in 21th century American English, but some dead languages. Because of that, we must take into account things like "context," "meanings of specific words," and the fact that some words have "more than one meanings and the context determines the meaning;" certain "idioms," "customs," etc., etc. Forth, let do our grown work as to have some true foundation from which to go on. For this, we must see that God "does NOT" will anyone to perish, and at the same time he DOES will some people to perish. Consider some scriptures:
a.) "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)
b.) "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will" (Matt 11:25-26).
Now enough though I can prove via the context that 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking specifically about God's elect via the context of the passage, I do not care to (this is not an aim of now now). The reason I put it here for you to see, is because I know you already have it in your mind that God wants to save everyone. So lets start there - that God wants to save everyone. If that is truly the case - and remember here my aim is to humility break certain presuppositions - why does scriptures like Mathew 11:25-26 teach otherwise (read that scripture in the stories context to gain an even better view of what I'm trying to say)? You see, if in fact God does NOT will anyone to be lost, then we have a CLEAR contradiction here. We must come to the conclusion, therefore, that we're missing somethings. And that is all I aim to say now. I truly hope that what I said made sense, and it has at least challenged you, in a good way of course, to consider things from all possible sides. If what I've said here does not make sense to you, please let me know what specifically you don't understand, and I will help as best as I can.
so why doesn't He make everyone believe in Jesus?
God doesn't grant everyone faith because:
1. He doesn't owe anyone mercy, since we are all guilty and deserve his wrath. Mercy or grace (the very thing God saves us by), is by very definition, not earned and/or deserved. God freely gives it to those whom he wills.
2. He aims in revealing himself in totality to His elect. He wants us to know him from Love to Wrath and all of his excellent attributes in between - e.g., "mercy/grace," "humility," "patients," etc. etc. The way God reveals himself in totality, is by creating a world in which he knew people would sin and thus incur his righteous wrath. Knowing that not would seek him, he saved some out of the equally wicked lump of mankind to display his grace (Eph 2:6), and left the rest to their own freewill to not come, and then punishes them to display his wrath - all for the sake of those whom he chose to love (Rom 9:22-23).
Is it true that God has given everyone the ability to choose and that He wont force anyone to believe in Jesus?
God does not choose to save everyone, but designates some sinners (these sinners are God hating and sin living) to his wrath. Consider these few scriptures to see what I mean: 1Sa 2:25 and Mark 4:11-12. Please read them!
Why did God give lucifer the ability to choose to rebel against Him?
The same reason he gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose to rebel against him. It was the means by which God would bring about his plans to make himself know to those in Christ. Had Adam and Eve never sinned, God would not be able to show himself in totality, as we would not/could not, know all of Him.
Hi brother. Listen, I'm going to say things that you probably have not heard before, but please consider them all. The ONLY reason I'm saying these things is because it must be said if you are guys are going to understand where we reformed dudes is coming from. Whether you agree or not is of no consequence, we just want you to understand why we believe what we believe.
God is not willing that anyone should perish,
I want to say out the outset, that God Does and Does NOT will people to perish. I assure you, this is not double talk. Rather, these seeming opposing truths must be said, because both are in scripture (as we will see soon). Second, when talking about "God's will" in scripture, we MUST determine as to whether we mean "what God 'would like' to see happen," or "what God allows to occur;" as BOTH these of these are described as God's "will" in scripture. Third, it is ABSOLUTELY imperative to have some knowledge of hermanutics (the art and science of studying scripture). Why is this so important? Frankly, it is important because our Bible was not written in 21th century American English, but some dead languages. Because of that, we must take into account things like "context," "meanings of specific words," and the fact that some words have "more than one meanings and the context determines the meaning;" certain "idioms," "customs," etc., etc. Forth, let do our grown work as to have some true foundation from which to go on. For this, we must see that God "does NOT" will anyone to perish, and at the same time he DOES will some people to perish. Consider some scriptures:
a.) "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)
b.) "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will" (Matt 11:25-26).
Now enough though I can prove via the context that 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking specifically about God's elect via the context of the passage, I do not care to (this is not an aim of now now). The reason I put it here for you to see, is because I know you already have it in your mind that God wants to save everyone. So lets start there - that God wants to save everyone. If that is truly the case - and remember here my aim is to humility break certain presuppositions - why does scriptures like Mathew 11:25-26 teach otherwise (read that scripture in the stories context to gain an even better view of what I'm trying to say)? You see, if in fact God does NOT will anyone to be lost, then we have a CLEAR contradiction here. We must come to the conclusion, therefore, that we're missing somethings. And that is all I aim to say now. I truly hope that what I said made sense, and it has at least challenged you, in a good way of course, to consider things from all possible sides. If what I've said here does not make sense to you, please let me know what specifically you don't understand, and I will help as best as I can.
so why doesn't He make everyone believe in Jesus?
God doesn't grant everyone faith because:
1. He doesn't owe anyone mercy, since we are all guilty and deserve his wrath. Mercy or grace (the very thing God saves us by), is by very definition, not earned and/or deserved. God freely gives it to those whom he wills.
2. He aims in revealing himself in totality to His elect. He wants us to know him from Love to Wrath and all of his excellent attributes in between - e.g., "mercy/grace," "humility," "patients," etc. etc. The way God reveals himself in totality, is by creating a world in which he knew people would sin and thus incur his righteous wrath. Knowing that not would seek him, he saved some out of the equally wicked lump of mankind to display his grace (Eph 2:6), and left the rest to their own freewill to not come, and then punishes them to display his wrath - all for the sake of those whom he chose to love (Rom 9:22-23).
Is it true that God has given everyone the ability to choose and that He wont force anyone to believe in Jesus?
God does not choose to save everyone, but designates some sinners (these sinners are God hating and sin living) to his wrath. Consider these few scriptures to see what I mean: 1Sa 2:25 and Mark 4:11-12. Please read them!
Why did God give lucifer the ability to choose to rebel against Him?
The same reason he gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose to rebel against him. It was the means by which God would bring about his plans to make himself know to those in Christ. Had Adam and Eve never sinned, God would not be able to show himself in totality, as we would not/could not, know all of Him.
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squint
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Where the Word is sown, Satan comes immediately to BLIND the minds of those who believe NOT. This does NOT mean automatic eternal torure.
No, it is NOT true that everyone has 'a choice.' No one has a 'choice' about the entrance of Satan/the Devil into their hearts. The only exemption to that was God Himself in the flesh.
And God clearly saves enemies of the Gospel AFTER death: Romans 11:26-32
Satan was a liar and a murder from the beginning. There was no truth in him. Satan was made to do what he does. When God is finished using that resistor and his clan, he will be set aside by God as the temporal power that he currently is. The notion that Satan chose his way to rebel is false. There is zero scriptural evidence that Satan was EVER Holy, then gone south by 'bad decision making.'
enjoy!
squint
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nobdysfool
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I saw that, but I am asking for scripture which shows that this is what God meant. And, please leave the post-modern psychological terms out of it.
depthdeception said:
Just as I thought, you don't really have solid scriptural support, so you rely on conjecture, and eisegesis. So you really haven't given solid scriptural support, you have told me what you think it "might" mean, IF your assumptions are correct, which you cannot prove either. So, you are left with some "could-be's", and "maybe's". Not enough to build any sort of doctrinal position on. Thanks for trying, though.
And yet we see all sorts of doctrinal positions declared on the basis of man being created in the image of God, yet no one can show with authority exactly what that means.
Anyone else want to take a crack at it?
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If God is not willing anyone should perish should we not take His Word? If God will something He is not like man will, his will will be done on earth as it is in heaven
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nobdysfool
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2 Peter 3:9 is taken out of context by most people. In context, you will see (if you have eyes to see) that Peter is speaking about a specific group of people who God wills should not perish but be saved. It is not a reference to all mankind, inclusively.
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nobdysfool
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Please do not take my word, how about being like the Bereaians
Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)
Stop blindly following tradition and look at Gods Word for our answers and what is scriptural. Satan cannot be Lucifer because no where does it say Satan is Lucifer and besides God created Satan.
Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..
Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)
Stop blindly following tradition and look at Gods Word for our answers and what is scriptural. Satan cannot be Lucifer because no where does it say Satan is Lucifer and besides God created Satan.
Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..
And we should just take your word for it???
I don't THINK so!
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depthdeception
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What is conjecture and eisegesis in what I have outlined? I dealt meaningfully with the key Genesis passages concerning the image of God and the relationality of God and humans in relationship to it. So where have I mis-stepped?
Please enlighten us all on what constitutes "solid scriptural support." As I mentioned before, I dealt meaningfully with the passages under question--I do not see where what I have suggested is somehow a gross encroachment on the fundamental intentions of the text.
Don't be naive. It is interpretation, after all. Appending an interpretation with "this is the truth" does not make it any less subjective, even though you might try to get away with that from others who do not know any better. Obviously, by virtue of providing an interpretation, I am offering opinions about the text. Anything that you would provide would be of precisely the same value, although given our past encounters, your conclusions would probably not be nearly as well-thought out, but would, undoubtedly, be louder and more egregious in their claims to truth. So I guess you have me there.
Again, what constitutes "authority?" I'm starting to get the sneaking suspicion that it means "what nobodysfool thinks it is." Yawn.
If you're such an authority, why don't you counter with some of meaningful content, rather than your complaints about others interpretations not lining up with your obviously overinflated opinion about your own interpretive ability?
Yeah, let's see you take a crack at it, since you apparently have the full corner on biblical truth.
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Have you really thought through your theory? God isnt able to reveal Himself completely apart from a rebellion by His created beings? Is this the almighty God of the bible?
God creating mankind with the ability to choose means that the responsibility for man's actions rests with man.
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