The Official Discussion:Is There A Pre,Mid Or Post Trib Rapture Or Not

There is no scripture, I mean NONE, that says Jesus is coming back for a secret rapture.

II Thes. 2 tells us when Jesus is coming back, and it says Jesus is coming back at the end, when he comes to destroy the antichrist with the brightness of his coming. This is told in direct reply to the Thessalonians who were told that Jesus was coming back any moment. Paul said, NO, NO, NO. Paul said, I told you before, Jesus is NOT COMING BACK UNTIL THE MAN OF SIN COMES, and here i is how you will recognize him, and also the great falling away and the great delusion. And then Jesus will come back and DESTROY THE ANTICHRIST.

Ergo,we will be here as long as the antichrist is here. Other scripture says also when it will happen and describes it, every eye will see him, etcetera, Matthew says "After the tribulation of those days," etcetera. I mean it is plain as day. The pretribbers take a few words like "come up hither" in Revelation and make a religion out of it. I guess they are scared and it helps them sleep at night maybe?

The Rapture is real. II Thessalonians tells us when. I Thessalonians tells us how. In the twinkling of an eye we will all be changed, resurrected. The church has always believed in the rapture, that those who are alive when Jesus comes back will not die, but be changed.

Just the Truth is correct!

Jesus said, "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

If He raises us up on the last day, everything else happens before that day. So I "voted" for Option 3.

A Brother In Christ said:

the departure from earth ... aka Rapture is a mystery truth and a judgement of the church in the dispensation of grace

the church does not need to know of the Day of the Lord because of this fact .. 1 thes 5:1-2 why is this important because the Jews are promised to experience Judgement of the law during this time ... minor prophets books

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visionary said:

this is not what Jesus prayed for...

John 17:15 (King James Version)

15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

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can't just take one verse.... context of the bible as a whole
there is multiple judgements
there are multiple resurrections
there are multiple time God comes to earth

what is God teaching...

why does God tell us that We HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW THIS... in 1 thes 5:1-2 we were taken out in 1 thes 4:13-18

simple

do we deserve this... no we all deserve HELL

with each group HE saves it is to HIS GLORY

A Brother In Christ said:

can't just take one verse.... context of the bible as a whole
there is multiple judgements
there are multiple resurrections
there are multiple time God comes to earth

what is God teaching...

why does God tell us that We HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW THIS... in 1 thes 5:1-2 we were taken out in 1 thes 4:13-18

simple

do we deserve this... no we all deserve HELL

with each group HE saves it is to HIS GLORY

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What?

A Brother In Christ said:

can't just take one verse.... context of the bible as a whole
there is multiple judgements
there are multiple resurrections
there are multiple time God comes to earth

what is God teaching...

why does God tell us that We HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW THIS... in 1 thes 5:1-2 we were taken out in 1 thes 4:13-18

simple

do we deserve this... no we all deserve HELL

with each group HE saves it is to HIS GLORY

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This is just blather. How about some clear scripture to back up your wishful thinking.

II Thes. tells us plainly, no doubts, WHEN Jesus is coming back.

When he comes to destroy the Man of Sin (ie antichrist) with the brightness of his coming. This was told by Paul in direct answer to the Thessalonians who had somebody spreading rumors that the Second Coming was imminent. Paul was annoyed and told the Thesalonians, NO, I told you before, Jesus is NOT COMING UNTIL THE ANTICHRIST COMES, AND HERE IS HOW YOU CAN RECOGNIZE THE ANTICHRIST, AND ALSO THERE WILL BE A GREAT APOSTASY, AND OTHER THINGS, AND THEN JESUS WILL COME AND DESTROY THE ANTICHRIST.

Okay? So that means, as a little kid could figure out that if we are going to be here until Jesus comes to destory the antichrist, that means we are all going to go through the Tribulation.

I know you don't like that, but you have not produced one single scripture to back up your wishful dreams of left behinding.

Also, scripture tells us Jesus is coming at the Last Trump.

And Jesus plainly said in Matthew 24, 3 through 28describing the Tribulation, and then 28 says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her lifht, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of hte havens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of hte Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (ie the LAST TRUMPET), AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FRO ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

Jesus was describing the coming fall of Jerusalem in 70ad which came to pass just as He described it. Right down to the sun darkened and the moon without light and stars falling from heaven. There was even and earthquake. It is a matter of recorded history so look it up.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

Jesus was describing the coming fall of Jerusalem in 70ad which came to pass just as He described it. Right down to the sun darkened and the moon without light and stars falling from heaven. There was even and earthquake. It is a matter of recorded history so look it up.

hismessenger

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And all the tribes of the earth were mourning and all were looking at the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory as the Scripture says, in 70 AD with the sacking of Rome? And Jesus sent his angels and gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other as is told in Matthew and Mark? And this is likened to "lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west? So shall also the coming of the Son of man be?

The second coming of Jesus, the Bible tells us, will light the sky and every tribe will mourn mourning and be looking upon Jesus, and the "gospel of the kingdom" will first be preached in "all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come? You say this was all happening in 70 AD?

And the "end" was the destruction of a temple in Jerusalem? THAT is the end of the world?

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (Mark 13:19)? This, the destruction of the Temple, is the answer to the question of the disciples in 24:3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? The Bible says that Jesus will come early or there would not be one person left alive on the earth. This really all happened in 70 AD?

How can the destruction of Solomon-s Temple (which it is not totally destroyed even today because the Wailing Wall is still standing) be compared to the end of the world and how could anyone presume to call this the Second Coming of Christ? Did anybody see him coming in the clouds? What about the resurrection? When Jesus comes the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive will rise to meet him in the air. Did this happen in 70 AD?

The destruction of Solomon-s Temple was the period of the worst time the earth has ever seen or ever would see? Jesus came secretly in the night and knocked the temple down? This is the Second Coming we read of in the Bible? You cannot be serious, surely.

If you do not like the second coming scenario in Matthew and Mark and Luke, how about the one in II Thessalonians 2 I cited above? That one describes Jesus coming to destroy the antichrist with the brightness of his coming, and 1 Thessalonians describes the rapture, where those believers who are alive are transformed into their immortal bodies and where the dead in Christ rise first to meet him in the air. I suppose you say this also happened when Solomon-s Temple was sacked?

So do you believe the earth is just going to go on and on as it is, that we are now living in paradise, in the Millenium? If so, the 1000 years ended long ago, from 70 AD to today is almost 2000 years, not 1000 years. So when do you expect Judgment Day to come, you know, the Great White Throne Judgment? Or do you not believe in that?

Please answer these questions.

Just The Truth,

The sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds on Oct. 28th, 312 AD, known as the turning point of history. On that day the first Christian horseman appeared, riding a white horse and conquering with a bow. Ever since that day Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.
And Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.

interpreter said:

Just The Truth,

The sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds on Oct. 28th, 312 AD, known as the turning point of history. On that day the first Christian horseman appeared, riding a white horse and conquering with a bow. Ever since that day Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.
And Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.

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You are saying the first horse in the four horsemen of the apocalypse comes AFTER the Tribulation? Revelation tells us it comes prior to the Tribulation.

Are you a preterist like Hismessenger? What's your timeline?

Just the Truth said:

This is just blather. How about some clear scripture to back up your wishful thinking.

II Thes. tells us plainly, no doubts, WHEN Jesus is coming back.

When he comes to destroy the Man of Sin (ie antichrist) with the brightness of his coming. This was told by Paul in direct answer to the Thessalonians who had somebody spreading rumors that the Second Coming was imminent. Paul was annoyed and told the Thesalonians, NO, I told you before, Jesus is NOT COMING UNTIL THE ANTICHRIST COMES, AND HERE IS HOW YOU CAN RECOGNIZE THE ANTICHRIST, AND ALSO THERE WILL BE A GREAT APOSTASY, AND OTHER THINGS, AND THEN JESUS WILL COME AND DESTROY THE ANTICHRIST.

Okay? So that means, as a little kid could figure out that if we are going to be here until Jesus comes to destory the antichrist, that means we are all going to go through the Tribulation.

I know you don't like that, but you have not produced one single scripture to back up your wishful dreams of left behinding.

Also, scripture tells us Jesus is coming at the Last Trump.

And Jesus plainly said in Matthew 24, 3 through 28describing the Tribulation, and then 28 says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her lifht, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of hte havens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of hte Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (ie the LAST TRUMPET), AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FRO ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

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As I indicated before, you are abolutely right in seeing Matt. 24:29-31 as describing a post-tribulation event. But Matt. 24:31 is not speaking of the rapture at all. Keep in mind that the Olivet Discourse deals with Israel and the Gentile nations exclusively. Matt. 24:31 is describing a regathering of the elect of Israel on the earth. This event was already described in Deut 30:3-4:
Furthermore, there is no justification for jumping to the conclusion that the "sounding of the trumpet" in Matt. 24:31 is the same as that in I Thes 4:16, I Cor 15:51-52 or any of the seven trumpets in Revelation.

Just the Truth said:

Are you a preterist like Hismessenger? What's your timeline?

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Hismessenger is not a preterist... he is a futurist.
he can correct me if I'm wrong

HarrisonS said:

As I indicated before, you are abolutely right in seeing Matt. 24:29-31 as describing a post-tribulation event. But Matt. 24:31 is not speaking of the rapture at all. Keep in mind that the Olivet Discourse deals with Israel and the Gentile nations exclusively. Matt. 24:31 is describing a regathering of the elect of Israel on the earth. This event was already described in Deut 30:3-4:Furthermore, there is no justification for jumping to the conclusion that the "sounding of the trumpet" in Matt. 24:31 is the same as that in I Thes 4:16, I Cor 15:51-52 or any of the seven trumpets in Revelation.

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Just the Truth, notice that all of this thinking, all this nonsense, all this man-made doctrine coming from HarrisonS requires you to go into the Bible with the preconceived idea that God deals differently with the church and Israel...
even though the church IS the Israel of God
(Romans 2:28-29, Gal. 3:26-29, Eph. 2:11-22, Gal. 6:15-16)

that's the basis for pre-tribulation, and that's the only was they can make pre-tribulation work, and they still hold onto it...
even though Paul says a rebellion must occur first, and then the Man of Sin be revealed
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Super Kal said:

Just the Truth, notice that all of this thinking, all this nonsense, all this man-made doctrine coming from HarrisonS requires you to go into the Bible with the preconceived idea that God deals differently with the church and Israel...
even though the church IS the Israel of God
(Romans 2:28-29, Gal. 3:26-29, Eph. 2:11-22, Gal. 6:15-16)...

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The church is never called "Israel" in Scripture. It is true that believers are called "Jews" and "seed of Aaraham", but never "Israel". Check your above references again. The term "Israel of God" in Gal 6:16 is best seen as believers within the church who also happened to be ethnic Jews. Unfortunately, this phrase is often repeated as a proof text, but as they say, "A proof text without a context is a pretext." The teaching that the church is the "Israel of God" is unbiblical, and is a myth that was the outgrowth of Roman Catholic dogma.

The "left behind" series made several people MILLIONAIRES all on the promises of being "caught up" before all these things come to pass...

Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul are very clear as is the gift, we do NOT miss out on the Tribulation... now mind you, those of us who live on the North American Continent might not get to see the final conflict due to the fulfillment of the I Thess. 5:3 prophecy... but the teaching of missing out on all the pain and getting great gain is just plan ear tickling, self centered, carnal, "me me me, I I I" self appropriating agenda.

It leads the way for lethargy and complacency which is accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers that lurk about in the pathway of true righteousness.

For one, I am very joyful that it was shown to me before I had the opportunity of hearing or reading about it...

Love
your servant brother Jerry
YouTube - THE Rapture.vob

HarrisonS said:

The church is never called "Israel" in Scripture. It is true that believers are called "Jews" and "seed of Aaraham", but never "Israel". Check your above references again. The term "Israel of God" in Gal 6:16 is best seen as believers within the church who also happened to be ethnic Jews. Unfortunately, this phrase is often repeated as a proof text, but as they say, "A proof text without a context is a pretext." The teaching that the church is the "Israel of God" is unbiblical, and is a myth that was the outgrowth of Roman Catholic dogma.

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Galatians 6:13-16
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Galatians was written the to church.
WHAT WAS JUST SAID RIGHT THERE?
GOD JUST CALLED US ISRAEL

how long will you continue to live in your dispensational bubble and continue to put God in a box with your man-made doctrine?

I , with the help of course of our LORD popped the dispy bubble that surrounded my wife a year ago.
She's thanked us for it ever since.

HarrisonS said:

The church is never called "Israel" in Scripture. It is true that believers are called "Jews" and "seed of Aaraham", but never "Israel". Check your above references again. The term "Israel of God" in Gal 6:16 is best seen as believers within the church who also happened to be ethnic Jews. Unfortunately, this phrase is often repeated as a proof text, but as they say, "A proof text without a context is a pretext." The teaching that the church is the "Israel of God" is unbiblical, and is a myth that was the outgrowth of Roman Catholic dogma.

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We are the "Spiritual house" of Israel, not the Israel of God...1 Pt 2:5 ~ Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. This is the church. We aren't the Israel of God. These are the unbelieving Jews that are saved during the tribulation...2 houses..house of Jacob, house of Judah, and the Spiritual house being the church. Only 3 who are saved.

check your personal dispensational dogma again, harrisonS... the view that the church was Israel was around much longer than your "darbyism" beliefs... Justin Martyr even taught that the church was the Israel of God.

Big Mouth Nana said:

We are the "Spiritual house" of Israel, not the Israel of God...1 Pt 2:5 ~ Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. This is the church. We aren't the Israel of God. These are the unbelieving Jews that are saved during the tribulation...2 houses..house of Jacob, house of Judah, and the Spiritual house being the church. Only 3 who are saved.

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the SAME FREAKING THING was said to Israel in Isaiah 42:16... and guess what, that was a prophecy concerning Israel, and guess who fulfilled it?... that's right, THE CHURCH!
looks like dispensational premillennialism is eternally condemned, just like Charles Ryie stated in 1941

Just the Truth said:

This is just blather. How about some clear scripture to back up your wishful thinking.

II Thes. tells us plainly, no doubts, WHEN Jesus is coming back.

When he comes to destroy the Man of Sin (ie antichrist) with the brightness of his coming. This was told by Paul in direct answer to the Thessalonians who had somebody spreading rumors that the Second Coming was imminent. Paul was annoyed and told the Thesalonians, NO, I told you before, Jesus is NOT COMING UNTIL THE ANTICHRIST COMES, AND HERE IS HOW YOU CAN RECOGNIZE THE ANTICHRIST, AND ALSO THERE WILL BE A GREAT APOSTASY, AND OTHER THINGS, AND THEN JESUS WILL COME AND DESTROY THE ANTICHRIST.

Okay? So that means, as a little kid could figure out that if we are going to be here until Jesus comes to destory the antichrist, that means we are all going to go through the Tribulation.

I know you don't like that, but you have not produced one single scripture to back up your wishful dreams of left behinding.

Also, scripture tells us Jesus is coming at the Last Trump.

And Jesus plainly said in Matthew 24, 3 through 28describing the Tribulation, and then 28 says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her lifht, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of hte havens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of hte Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (ie the LAST TRUMPET), AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FRO ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

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1 cor 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.