The ethics of eating animals

Originally posted by Laura
The motivation of hunger may be the same, but humans have an advantage over a pack of wolves. We can make a nice vegetable lasagna instead.

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While I must admit a vegetable lasagna sounds pretty tasty (I'm starting to get very hungry reading this thread ), I still don't see the rational that a human killing an animal for food is somehow different than an animal killing an animal for food.

Romans 14:1-5
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

Actually, the entire chapter of Romans 14 speaks to topics just like this one, and how we are not to judge a person because of what they eat, or don't eat, if they esteem one day over the rest, or if they esteem every day alike.

Originally posted by Laura
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with using animals for food if they weren't treated so horribly. Maybe if they were killed in a humane way, it wouldn't be such an issue. These animals are TORTURED for the sake of humans, who could just as easily get their nutrients elsewhere.

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Simple solution: Get meat from a kosher butcher. They're killed as painlessly as possible.

You could also always ask your butcher how it's killed.

And a third solution is to raise your own meat, because then you'll know how it's killed (but I know that's not an option for everyone).

Hmmm.... 4th solution: Go hunting for your meat. You can be the one who chooses how it dies, and also cut down on the overpopulation of deer or geese in the area (preventing less suffering).

Just a couple of ideas.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

You are mixing things again, Laura.

- Are you implying that all the meat eaten, was first offered as a sacrafice to idols, before it was sent to the grocery stores? You are also mixing Mosaic Law with the New Covenant.

- Agreed. Cruelty to animals is not acceptable. But, you are mixing things.

- The key words in Roman 14 are, "by which your brother stumbles". I had already stated this in post #100. As a matter of fact, take a few minutes, and read the entire chaper 14 of Romans. Try to understand the overall picture of what is being talked about.

Originally posted by Laura
"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things." - Acts 15:28-29

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No sacrifices, no strangulated animals, no sexual immorality, check!

Originally posted by Laura
"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." - Proverbs 12:10

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Only time I was cruel to one of my animals was when I accidently dropped a perch on top of one of my parakeets, and I recently stepped on my dog's paw (both times were by mistake).

Originally posted by Laura
"It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak." - Romans 14:21

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Why is this verse out of it's proper context?


Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
Â_Â_Â_" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
Â_Â_Â_'every knee will bow before me;
Â_Â_Â_Â_Â_Â_Â_every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Footnotes

1. 14:11 Isaiah 45:23
2. 14:14 Or that nothing



Much better

Hope this helps!

Shlomo! (Peace!)

"No, I was referring mostly to the "meat of strangled animals" part."

What meat product, ending up at the grocery store, was strangled to slaughter it? (This ought to be good. I can't wait to hear this. )

"Speaking Biblically, do you think Jesus would approve of us eating meat, knowing how the animals are treated?"

What are you saying here? Are you saying that Jesus would approve of us eating meat, but only if the animals were treated better?

Originally posted by TheBear
What are you saying here? Are you saying that Jesus would approve of us eating meat, but only if the animals were treated better?

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Meat back in His day, especially around Judea, would have had a MUCH harder life than today's corn-fed cattle and other livestock.


Shlomo! (Peace!)

Originally posted by The Thadman
Meat back in His day, especially around Judea, would have had a MUCH harder life than today's corn-fed cattle and other livestock.


Shlomo! (Peace!)

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Good point.

Originally posted by Laura
I, obviously, take this verse a little more metaphorically than you.



I'm saying that I don't think he would approve of us eating the meat of an animal that was tortured. Looking at the nature of Jesus, I don't think He's one to take cruelty to any living creature lightly. I don't know if He would even approve of people eating meat, but still unsure about that one.

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Oh, I see. When your own quoted verses are shown to be inapplicable and do not support your position, the verses then turn into vague metaphores. How convienient.


Laura, I think you have a sincere heart and an honest desire to do what is right. However, I think you are championing a cause you do not fully understand. PETA is not an unbiased, neutral organization with nothing but objective research and findings. Quite the opposite, they are an extremist group, who mix some truth with a lot of hogwash, to generate revenues. That's right....MONEY!

If you personally do not want to eat meat, I respect that. If you think the Bible prohibits us from eating meat, we can discuss. But, I will have a lot more respect for your position, if you leave all the extremist propiganda at the door.

"We need your financial support in order to put a stop to animal cruelty."
- from PETA website

Ahhhh....."Send us your money!!" the battle cry of every special interest group.

Originally posted by LauraI don't know if He would even approve of people eating meat, but still unsure about that one.

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I'm quite sure He would, because I'm quite sure He did

Matthew 9:10
And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

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Matthew 10:10
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

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Matthew 15:37
And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full.

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Matthew 26:7
There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.

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Mark 2:15
And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

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And this is just after a quick skim of -two- of the Gospels.

Plus, remember how fish are caught and cleaned: First, they're strung up out of the water of long periods of time, then they are gutted and cleaned live.

Hope this helps!

Shlomo!

Originally posted by The Thadman
I'm quite sure He would, because I'm quite sure He did











And this is just after a quick skim of -two- of the Gospels.

Plus, remember how fish are caught and cleaned: First, they're strung up out of the water of long periods of time, then they are gutted and cleaned live.

Hope this helps!

Shlomo!

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Another voice of reason. Thanks brother.

Hello all,

Just a few points.

There was a discussion a few pages back about why it is ok for an animal to eat anothe animal and not for a human to eat an animal.

Again for the third time I quote genesis 1:29

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Before the fall. All humans and animals were vegetarian. It was result of sin that we became how we are today.

Using the argument is it ok for an animal to eat another animal... is it ok for a human to eat another human???? hey its all meat isnt it???

As for Schlomo's and Bears argument on the good conditions of corn - fed cattle today. Again i bring up the issues of Human rights.
About half the worlds grain is consumed by animals that are later slaughtered for meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of feedlot Beef. About 20 vegetarians can be fed from the land it takes to feed 1 meat eater. If all the grain fed to american beef cattle was fed to humans it would feed 1.3 BILLION people.

If not considering animal cruelty why not consider human rights.

The bear - As for PETA asking for money.. no i dont agree with that. But have you been to church lately??? have you ever been to a pentecostal church. A lovely service my friend went to the other day said "God doesnt want you to tip him, he wants substancial amounts of money, so empty your wallets for God." Meanwhile the pastors go home to their mansions in their BMW's.
People will be corrupted by greed in any organisation.

Again all these points i have addressed earlier but no one replied about Jesus eating meat. Take aside animal cruelty.
There is HUGE unever food distribution and globalisation today, there are environmental issues to do with meat such as dessertification and deforestation, water depletion and polution. If Jesus had come today instead of 2000 years ago then maybe he would have been a vegetarian. Back in those days most people farmed for themselves or supplied only to small towns unlike today when cattle are mass produced.

Again I post the following. Please read it... i think it was overlooked last time, because i got no comments. I know its a little long.

Forest Destruction - Half of the annual destruction of rainforests is caused by clearing land for beef cattle ranches. In America about 260 million acres of forrest have been cleared for a meat centered diet. Each person who becomes vegetarian saves one acre of trees per year.

Agricultural Inefficiency - About half the worlds grain is consumed by animals that are later slaughtered for meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of feedlot Beef. About 20 vegetarians can be fed from the land it takes to feed 1 meat eater. If all the grain fed to american beef cattle was fed to humans it would feed 1.3 BILLION people

Soil Erosion and Desertification - Overgrazing of beef cattle and other meat animals results in high levels of soil erosion. One pound of beef from cattle raised on feed lots represents a loss of 35 pounds of top-soil. In Autralia cattle grazing contribute substantially to desertification.

Air Pollution - The meat industry burns up a lot of fossil fuel, pouring pollution into the air. Calorie by calorie, it takes 39 times more energy to produce beef than soybeans. The petroleum use in the USA would decrease by 60% if people adopted to a vegetarian diet. Methane is produced directly by the digestive process of cows. This green house gas is considered very dangerous because each molecule of methane traps 20 times more heat than a molecule of carbondioxide. Overall the effect of methane emmitted by cows is not enough to justify fears of cows destroying the world. But over-population and unnatural production of cattle produces unneccessary amounts of methane gas.

Water Pollution - About 50% of the water pollution in the usa is linked to livestock. In feedlots and stockyard holding pens there is a huge concertrations of animal excretment and urine this wate is 10 -100's of times more concerntrated than raw domestic sewerage.

Water Depletion - The beef industry is wasting the diminishing supplies of fresh water. The livesrtock industries in the USA takes about 50% of water consumed each year.


Laume

I used to be a vegetarian for most of my youth. When I became older I then started to eat meat/fish. I prefer to eat fish now as red meat, chicken, etc. tend to make me feel quite sick...and even with fish I am quite restricted to cod, salmon, kippers, tuna.

I think that to condemn someone for eating meat is wrong, but there is quite a valid point about the health issues concerned with the consumption of animal flesh. We seem to have no limitations on what we eat, going on the premise that "all things are good to eat".

Research shows us that with meat and fish there are many toxins contained in their blood which although harmless to the animal, when heated or cooked by humans can cause various ailments in the human digestive system. I suppose that is why Middle Easterners tend to subscribe to the kosher/halal way of draining the blood from animals.

I have been to an abbatoir and my goodness that really put me of eating red meat. Yuck!!! Also I found that read meat made me really sluggish, tired and took and an eternity to digest...LOL..(you still digesting that cow!!)

By all intent and purposes (although silence should not be the premise for any theology) it would appear that by the tone of Bible men sacrificed but did not eat flesh before the Flood. Or is that a whole new thread on its own (Dave cowers from the incoming hail of bullets!!)???

With prudence I think that all should look carefully into what we eat. Try to refrain from eating scavenging animals, avoid vegetables that are genetically modified, try to eat meat where the blood has been drained and if you are vegetarian enusre that the diet is supplemented with the protein, fats, carbohydrates and minerals one would usually have within a meat diet. It didn't do Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego any harm!!!!

Right just allow me to put my flack jacket on now....LOL...smile

Keep the faith
Dave

p.s. Have been feeling guilty about being a demi-vegetarian (there's an oxymoron for you) since Vegi-Tales!!!

 

Has anyone stopped to look what God thinks about this subject?
Sorry I had to bring "Him" into this, but He might have said something on eating animals, don't you think?