Grace

AllForJesus · Feb 2, 2010

Is this the catholic view of Grace?

And when they pretend to disapprove of and give up all their definitions to facilitate evasion through their complete art of deception, unless their meaning is detected, they make exception of the dogma that the grace of God is given according to the merits of the recipient. And yet surely, unless it is given freely, it is not a gift, but a price and compensation for merits: for the blessed Apostle says, "by grace ye have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should perchance be exalted. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God prepared that we should walk in them." Thus every bestowal of good works is of God's preparing: because a man is justified by grace rather than by his own excellence: for grace is to every one the source of righteousness, the source of good and the fountain of merit. But these heretics say it is anticipated by men's natural goodness for this reason, that that nature which(in their view) is before grace conspicuous for good desires of its own, may not seem marred by any stain of original sin, and that what the Truth says may be falsified: "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost."

Eucharisted · Feb 2, 2010

Ah, Leo.

AllForJesus · Feb 2, 2010

Eucharisted said:
Ah, Leo.

I do know the author, i want to know if this still true...

Rhamiel · Feb 2, 2010

i think that is a catholic view, but i do believe that there are other orthodox views that are in the Church, may I ask where the quote is from?

... to tell the truth, a lot of this more complex stuff confuses me

AllForJesus · Feb 2, 2010

Rhamiel said:
i think that is a catholic view, but i do believe that there are other orthodox views that are in the Church, may I ask where the quote is from?

... to tell the truth, a lot of this more complex stuff confuses me

Pope Saint LEO THE GREAT,
Letter I: To The Bishop of AQUILEIA.
Paragraph III:The Pelagian view of God's grace is unscriptural

Rhamiel · Feb 2, 2010

hmmm, why would you ask if this is still believed?

Eucharisted · Feb 2, 2010

9. To be convinced of this we have but to consider the way in which he discharged his office as teacher of the Catholic Faith. In this field he won for himself a name equal to that of St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Cyril of Alexandria. St. Augustine, as we know, in defending the Faith against the Pelagians, insisted on the absolute necessity of divine grace for right living and the attainment of eternal salvation. St. Cyril, faced with the errors of Nestorius, upheld Christ's Divinity and the fact that the Virgin Mary is truly the Mother of God. These truths lie at the very heart of our Catholic Faith, and St. Leo, who entered into the doctrinal inheritance of both these men of learning, the brightest luminaries of the Eastern and Western Church, was among all his contemporaries by far the most fearless protagonist of them.

John XXIII - Aeterna Dei Sapientia

Rhamiel · Feb 2, 2010

i am off to bed now, interesting thread though, i will have to read more in the morning

for atleast the past 5 years(probably a lot longer) i have had a similar view of Grace as the quote in the OP, but then people started telling me i sounded like a protestant and a very smart Calvinist kept trying to convert me, so i stoped talking about my veiw of Grace so much

Michie · Feb 2, 2010

( CRV )

1 Peter 2:19-21

19 This is indeed a grace, if for consciousness of God anyone endures sorrows, suffering unjustly.
20 For what is the glory if, when you sin and are buffeted, you endure it? But if, when you do right and suffer, you take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 Unto this, indeed, you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you may follow in his steps.

Bibliography: The Holy Bible, New Catholic Edition, 1962, Catholic Book Publishing Company, Revised Challoner-Rheims Version ( CRV ), New Testament, New York, Page 306.
( RSV )
Romans 8:12-18
12 So then, brethern, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -
13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
18 I consider that the suffering of this present time are not worthy comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Bibliography: Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Revised Standard Version, ( RSV ) Second Edition by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch.

( NIV )
Luke 9:23-26

23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
25 What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?
26 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."
( NIV )
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
( NIV )
1 Corinthians 7:21-24
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you - although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.

( NIV )
Romans 3:21-31
Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished -
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

AllForJesus · Feb 2, 2010

Rhamiel said:
hmmm, why would you ask if this is still believed?

Because that is not what i hear among the Catholics so i thought they maybe changed their minds (the Church i mean).

AllForJesus · Feb 2, 2010

Michie said:
( CRV )

1 Peter 2:19-21

( NIV )
Luke 9:23-26

( NIV )
Romans 3:21-31
Righteousness Through Faith

Michie, what i was wondering about is not the fact that we are to honor God in our living and hate sin and walk in the way of the Lord! no!

I am talking here about our merits! like if we do all this we will receive grace. Wasn't supposed to be we do all this because we received grace?!

Michie · Feb 2, 2010

AllForJesus said:
Michie, what i was wondering about is not the fact that we are to honor God in our living and hate sin and walk in the way of the Lord! no!

I am talking here about our merits! like if we do all this we will receive grace. Wasn't supposed to be we do all this because we received grace?!

Grace is a gift but it can be freely rejected. We do not earn grace persay but there is such a thing as sanctifying grace which I believe we are active participants in. It's not earning grace or salvation but cooperating.

AllForJesus · Feb 2, 2010

Michie said:
Grace is a gift but it can be freely rejected. We do not earn grace persay but there is such a thing as sanctifying grace which I believe we are active participants in. It's not earning grace or salvation but cooperating.

Oh yes i do understand! Thanks

But i still find the way we give and teach the concept of grace is not lucid... I am not saying that we have grace and go sin or make ourselves live according to the flesh... I am saying that instead of saying do this so you will still have grace, we can say grace will give you power to live according to His way (which does involve us doing things!) if you don't want that way then you turn away the grace.

Michie · Feb 2, 2010

AllForJesus said:
Oh yes i do understand! Thanks

But i still find the way we give and teach the concept of grace is not lucid... I am not saying that we have grace and go sin or make ourselves live according to the flesh... I am saying that instead of saying do this so you will still have grace, we can say grace will give you power to live according to His way (which does involve us doing things!) if you don't want that way then you turn away the grace.

I agree. I do think the Church could eliminate a lot of problems by being clearer in their teachings. Sometime I feel like I need to be a canon lawyer just to get the total picture of the things I think should be very simple to understand.

Rhamiel · Feb 2, 2010

AllForJesus said:
Oh yes i do understand! Thanks

But i still find the way we give and teach the concept of grace is not lucid... I am not saying that we have grace and go sin or make ourselves live according to the flesh... I am saying that instead of saying do this so you will still have grace, we can say grace will give you power to live according to His way (which does involve us doing things!) if you don't want that way then you turn away the grace.

but we do get grace in the sacrements, and we do get grace from saying prayers and doing good works right?
but we can not choose to do these things without the grace of God acting within us... i feel lost

mark46 · Feb 3, 2010

AllForJesus said:
Because that is not what i hear among the Catholics so i thought they maybe changed their minds (the Church i mean).

====================================================
The Church has not changed its mind. Sometimes I bothered by the very idea that Church might change its mind on items of dogma.

The doctrine of grace was at the very heart of the Reformation. It was not until 25 years ago that the Lutheran Church and RCC removed their mutual excomminications over this very issue.

And yes, there are many Catholics who have been taught incorrectly, including priests.
================

Shall we discuss indulgences. They still exit.
===================================

I guess I must add that Luther was correct that we are saved by Grace (alone) through our faith (alone) in Christ Jesus (alone). This fact does deny the effect of the sacraments or the Church.

How many of us would have followed the corrupt medieval Church who sold indulgences for the forgiveness of sin. Just buy those heaven points. Seriously, I have heard priests talk about good works as building up heaven points.

In the end, then as now, many left and many otehrs answered "where shall I go".

MoNiCa4316 · Feb 3, 2010

the Church has not changed the teaching on grace.

there are different types of grace...sanctifying and actual. We can't merit sanctifying grace. But grace can be increased through good works etc.

this is a good article

Grace: What It Is and What It Does

God bless

Michie · Feb 3, 2010

Rhamiel said:
but we do get grace in the sacrements, and we do get grace from saying prayers and doing good works right?
but we can not choose to do these things without the grace of God acting within us... i feel lost

Wouldn't that be santifying grace? We are cooperating with God's grace (gift), by following Him & His teachings. We don't earn brownie points but it's His grace working through us if we are open to it. Then we cooperate with that grace. (I know, confusing).

***Edited in: did not see Monica's post*** Oops!

Rhamiel · Feb 3, 2010

Grace

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