How the Saints hear our prayers

jckstraw72 · Jan 26, 2010

this is a really good excerpt from St. John of Kronstadt on how the Saints can hear us. this would be a good answer to so many of those threads in GT, or just for our own edification:

How is it that the saints see us and our needs and hear our prayers? Let us make the following comparison: Suppose that you were transplanted to the sun and were united to it. The sun lights the whole earth with its rays, it lights every particle of the earth. In these rays you also see the earth, but you are so small in proportion to the sun, that you would form, so to say, but one ray, and there are an infinite number of such rays. By its identity with the sun this ray takes an intimate part in lighting the whole world through the sun. So also the saintly soul, having become united to God, as to its spiritual sun, sees, through the medium of its spiritual sun, which lights the whole universe, all men and the needs of those that pray.

Dorothea · Jan 26, 2010

I didn't understand what St. John of Kronstadt meant.

I mean, I know you said it's about the Saints hearing our prayers. I didn't comprehend it well. I'm a bit dense that way. Sorry about that. Hopefully I'll get it after reading it a few times later on. Maybe somebody will post exactly what he means. lol

eta: Ok, read it again. I see now. Whew. Thought I would never get it.

1Prophetess · Jan 26, 2010

I find it hard to believe that saints hear our prayers. (I do believe that Jesus' mother, Mary, is concerned about the whole world as her son was. And I know she is involved in all of us.)

However, saints were people. Why would God, for centuries later, burden them with people's problems?

We are supposed to pray to the Father as Jesus showed us how to pray with the Lord's prayer--not to people. He did not pray to saints.

Did God give them power? Maybe in one small area and while they were here. But once gone, the Bible indicates that we have no more power here (at least from what I read). So I just don't know.

I find it hard to believe. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I find it hard to believe.

jckstraw72 · Jan 26, 2010

1Prophetess said:
I find it hard to believe that saints hear our prayers. (I do believe that Jesus' mother, Mary, is concerned about the whole world as her son was. And I know she is involved in all of us.)

However, saints were people. Why would God, for centuries later, burden them with people's problems?

We are supposed to pray to the Father as Jesus showed us how to pray with the Lord's prayer--not to people. He did not pray to saints.

Did God give them power? Maybe in one small area and while they were here. But once gone, the Bible indicates that we have no more power here (at least from what I read). So I just don't know.

I find it hard to believe. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I find it hard to believe.

well because they love God so much, and therefore love their fellow man so much, they dont consider it a burden to pray to God for us! they rejoice in the opportunity to partake in the salvation of another!

christianmomof3 · Jan 26, 2010

I read the thread because I wanted to see what the reasoning would be. I think I understand what he was saying, so may I ask a question here about this concept? Apparantly this guy, and I guess your religion, believes that you are not united to God until you are dead - is that correct?
I believe that when we are born again, the Lord comes into us and dwells within us, and from that moment on, we are united to Him. As we grow in our Christian life, He grows more in us so that the longer we live and grow in Him, there is more of Him and less of us, and I do believe that it is a process of growth in life and even that we will be with Him after we die. But I am not sure where the concept would come from that before we die we don't share the knowledge of other's prayers and that is somehow added to us at death - nor why that should happen.

Dorothea · Jan 26, 2010

christianmomof3 said:
I read the thread because I wanted to see what the reasoning would be. I think I understand what he was saying, so may I ask a question here about this concept? Apparantly this guy, and I guess your religion, believes that you are not united to God until you are dead - is that correct?
I believe that when we are born again, the Lord comes into us and dwells within us, and from that moment on, we are united to Him. As we grow in our Christian life, He grows more in us so that the longer we live and grow in Him, there is more of Him and less of us, and I do believe that it is a process of growth in life and even that we will be with Him after we die. But I am not sure where the concept would come from that before we die
we don't share the knowledge of other's prayers and that is somehow added to us at death - nor why that should happen.

Hmmm, no I don't that is correct. We are connected with God through His Holy Spirit and Christ. We receive the seal of the Holy Spirit at the sacrament of Chrismation (immediately following baptism). I don't disagree that through our lives (if we are continually working out our salvation and walking to the best of our ability toward Christ), that we do become closer to God. This is theosis that is talked about. Saints are the ones that usually attain this, thus the remembering them as role models for us.

There are some elders and monks and such who actually are able to know other's prayers, but it's not a normal occurrence amongst the laity. We pray for each other here on earth as well. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are wondering why we don't share the "knowledge" of other's prayers....as I said, most of us do not know what other people pray for unless they ask for us to pray for them (talking about here on earth). After we pass on here, our sense of perception and knowledge is quite different than when we were on earth. We are with God and can have a much better sense of understanding about life that we didn't get because of our finite knowledge on earth. I hope I'm making sense. I've been a bit scattered brained lately. Too much on the mind.

anadohos · Jan 26, 2010

It is exactly because of our union with Christ that enables all members of His body to pray for each other. Please note that the Orthodox do not actually pray to the saints but with them. We invoke them in our prayers to the Father through the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus.

Machachachi · Jan 26, 2010

Who considers it a burden when someone asks you to pray for them? Isn't that contrary to the Gospel itself?

God himself said that none who have put their faith in Him have truly died. Christ Himself said he was the God of the living not of the dead. So how is their power removed by "death?"

To say that the Saints are dead is a contradiction of Christ Himself.

Additionally, if a King sends out a messenger, and someone accepts that messenger and honors the messenger, he also honors the King who sent the messenger. So we might be able to argue that God does not need messengers, but why then does God use angels? Can't he just do it Himself? Of course He can, but why then does He have servants? Because He's telling us about Himself. Just as with the Saints being alive and well and able to hear our prayers.

God is speaking about Himself. He's telling us who He is. Why then are the Saints important? Because they prove to us, that God honors those, who honor Him. How do we know a Saint? By their fruit? Does a good tree, stop bearing good fruit? It can't, because then it ceases to be a good tree.

So we know that the Saints remain alive, we know that God has honored those who honor Him. And what is the ultimate honor to be given by a King? To be entrusted with the King's tasks, to be given duties and responsibilities, to know that God has put His faith in you. What greater reward is there?

Kreikkalainen · Jan 26, 2010

They do.

Dorothea · Jan 26, 2010

Machachachi said:
Who considers it a burden when someone asks you to pray for them? Isn't that contrary to the Gospel itself?

God himself said that none who have put their faith in Him have truly died. Christ Himself said he was the God of the living not of the dead. So how is their power removed by "death?"

To say that the Saints are dead is a contradiction of Christ Himself.

Additionally, if a King sends out a messenger, and someone accepts that messenger and honors the messenger, he also honors the King who sent the messenger. So we might be able to argue that God does not need messengers, but why then does God use angels? Can't he just do it Himself? Of course He can, but why then does He have servants? Because He's telling us about Himself. Just as with the Saints being alive and well and able to hear our prayers.

God is speaking about Himself. He's telling us who He is. Why then are the Saints important? Because they prove to us, that God honors those, who honor Him. How do we know a Saint? By their fruit? Does a good tree, stop bearing good fruit? It can't, because then it ceases to be a good tree.

So we know that the Saints remain alive, we know that God has honored those who honor Him. And what is the ultimate honor to be given by a King? To be entrusted with the King's tasks, to be given duties and responsibilities, to know that God has put His faith in you. What greater reward is there?

ArmyMatt · Jan 26, 2010

But once gone, the Bible indicates that we have no more power here (at least from what I read). So I just don't know.

well, when we read the Book of Revelation, the Transfiguration in the Gospel, and Lazarus and the rich man, we can see that those who have departed this life are alive in Christ and aware of what is happening on earth (the martyrs are praying before God's Throne, Moses spoke to Christ of His Passion, and Abraham was aware of the Law and the Prophets that happened centuries after his own death).

but when we look at St Peter's Epistles, we read that when he wrote those getting ready for his own martyrdom, he speaks of the work he will continue to do after his departure. so after he is killed, he will continue to serve the Church.

E.C. · Jan 26, 2010

1Prophetess said:
I find it hard to believe that saints hear our prayers. (I do believe that Jesus' mother, Mary, is concerned about the whole world as her son was. And I know she is involved in all of us.)

However, saints were people. Why would God, for centuries later, burden them with people's problems?

Burden? They gave of themselves willingly to the Lord during their time here. I don't think they would consider it a burden to pray for the living here, but would consider it an honor.

We are supposed to pray to the Father as Jesus showed us how to pray with the Lord's prayer--not to people. He did not pray to saints.

Did God give them power? Maybe in one small area and while they were here. But once gone, the Bible indicates that we have no more power here (at least from what I read). So I just don't know.

I find it hard to believe. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I find it hard to believe.

When Christ resurrected, He defeated death. St. Paul said "as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ". The Holy Spirit dwells within us after chrismation (immediately after baptism - most Orthodox born into the faith are baptized about forty days after birth) and since we are united in Christ with the Holy Spirit why then should death still be a barrier?

Christ is God as is the Holy Spirit. Since we as Christians are united in Christ with the Holy Spirit, why then shouldn't they, at the very least, be aware of our prayers? Since the saints are with God, are united with us in Christ and have the Holy Spirit within them why shouldn't they pray for the rest of us?

It would be, in my opinion, quite selfish and un-saintly if the saints did not pray for us.

Lukaris · Jan 26, 2010

In our divine liturgy we on earth are united with the saints as in the "cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) to our "High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Hebrews 3:1).

All4Christ · Jan 26, 2010

In Hebrews 12, Paul speaks of Christ being our Mediator. In this context, he also talks bout the Glorious Company that we come to. In other words, he says that we no longer are at a time where we are forbidden to go to the Holy Mountain (i.e. Moses and the mountain with the 10 commandments, etc), but now we have a "glorious company" that we come to...which has Christ as our mediator, all the angels, the just men made perfect (the saints), etc.

This is the description of mediation in the New Covenant. We can ask for prayers of the angels, those still here on earth (the general assembly and the church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven), the spirits of just men made perfect (saints), and Jesus Christ our mediator.

18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow. 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

I'll write more later. Have to do some more work now...

Coralie · Jan 27, 2010

1Prophetess said:
Did God give them power? Maybe in one small area and while they were here. But once gone, the Bible indicates that we have no more power here (at least from what I read). So I just don't know.

Hi 1Prophetess,

Thanks for being so honest. Your post exposes a common misunderstanding about prayer with the Saints. We don't believe the Saintshave any power of their own. They are alive in Christ, and that is an amazing thing, but the Lord is still the only All-Powerful One.

The Saints--those who have run the race and have won the crown--are the ultimate examples of faith and humility. They are among the "righteous men" of James 5, whose prayers are answered:

15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up....16Therefore...pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

That's why we ask them to pray with us.

I also want to point out that a lot of the discomfort around Saint intercession is because of anti-Catholic propaganda dating from the 1500s and 1600s. Antipathy towards the Saints is a tradition of men, not of God.

The fact is, the Church has always believed that the Saints are alive in Christ and are interceding in front of God's Throne, and that all Christians--on Earth and in Heaven--are part of one Body.

If you put all those beliefs together, it's clear that asking a Saint to intercede with you is something that is rooted in a very old, very authentic understanding of how God's Kingdom functions. When we say "he's alive in Christ", we really do mean ALIVE! Along with all that connotes!

Hope this helps you understand where we're coming from. God bless.

TheCunctator · Jan 27, 2010

1Prophetess said:
I find it hard to believe that saints hear our prayers. (I do believe that Jesus' mother, Mary, is concerned about the whole world as her son was. And I know she is involved in all of us.)

However, saints were people. Why would God, for centuries later, burden them with people's problems?

We are supposed to pray to the Father as Jesus showed us how to pray with the Lord's prayer--not to people. He did not pray to saints.

Did God give them power? Maybe in one small area and while they were here. But once gone, the Bible indicates that we have no more power here (at least from what I read). So I just don't know.

I find it hard to believe. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I find it hard to believe.

I think that, at the very least, the Bible gives a compelling case that those in heaven can AT LEAST hear us.

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (Luke 15:7)

katherine2001 · Jan 27, 2010

My first bishop explained to us during his sermon (when he visited our parish) that the saints intercede for us when we fall and cheer us on when we make the right decisions and do the right things. I find that very inspiring myself. And, of course, each of us has a guardian angel looking out for us also.

How the Saints hear our prayers

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