Ordination of Women

TimRout

Biblicist
Feb 27, 2008
4,762
221
53
Ontario
✟13,717.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It goes without saying that no biblically consistent Christian can support the ordination of women to senior church leadership. Some say that all who support the ordination of women are definitively liberal.

Thus our question.

Are all those who support the ordination of women to senior leadership in the church, to be considered perfidious?
 
Last edited:

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
My first question comes from the New Testament

Revelation 2

18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

In this church community it is said of the people who are following Jesus that they have reached the highest level of maturity . (i will not impose any further burden upon you hold onto what you have until i come)

No where in this letter is the fact that a woman is teaching men being criticized .

God being consistent is criticizing the prophetess for having sex with her followers and teaching them bad things .

Being that Revelation is on a faith-works balance very works heavy . don't you think this would have been something mentioned?

if God doesn't hold it against Thyatira . why would God hold it against anyone?

Remember this is a New Testament quote . so i'd appreciate some explanation .
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfidious
per⋅fid⋅i⋅ous
  /pərˈfɪdiəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [per-fid-ee-uhs] Show IPA
Use perfidious in a Sentence
See images of perfidious
Search perfidious on the Web
–adjective
deliberately faithless; treacherous; deceitful: a perfidious lover.
Origin:
1590&#8211;1600; < L perfidi&#333;sus faithless, dishonest. See perfidy, -ous

Related forms:
per&#8901;fid&#8901;i&#8901;ous&#8901;ly, adverb
per&#8901;fid&#8901;i&#8901;ous&#8901;ness, noun

Synonyms:
false, disloyal; unfaithful, traitorous.

Antonyms:
faithful.
 
Upvote 0

TimRout

Biblicist
Feb 27, 2008
4,762
221
53
Ontario
✟13,717.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
re: Rev. 2

Brother, if one used this text in support of women in senior/teaching leadership in the church, wouldn't that constitute an argument from silence? Perhaps something like this:

God didn't mention anything about disallowing women the pulpit, therefore He mustn't have had a problem with it.

Surely there are other texts that speak with greater clarity on the subject? :)
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
re: Rev. 2

Brother, if one used this text in support of women in senior/teaching leadership in the church, wouldn't that constitute an argument from silence? Perhaps something like this:

God didn't mention anything about disallowing women the pulpit, therefore He mustn't have had a problem with it.

Surely there are other texts that speak with greater clarity on the subject? :)

In this case it is not an argument of silence . because God identifies her as "that woman" and continues on to demonstrate she is being assessed as any male in the same position would be assessed . was even given space to repent .

If her being a woman was an issue God would have said so . because He identified her as a woman .
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
The principle i am drawing on here is:

Actions speak louder than words .

there is scripture written by people with instructions in it .

and then there is scripture where God is actually speaking or doing something in the first person

these passages are where one needs to pay attention . because in here is the consistency of His character .
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

desmalia

sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays
Sep 29, 2006
5,786
943
Canada
Visit site
✟18,512.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
It goes without saying that no biblically consistent Christian can support the ordination of women to senior church leadership. Some say that all who support the ordination of women are definitively liberal.

Thus our question.

Are all those who support the ordination of women to senior leadership in the church, to be considered perfidious?
I wouldn't go as far as to say perfidious. But deceived or undereducated in what the Scriptures teach (not to mention God's nature, the nature of humanity and what He created us for, etc.) and perhaps rebellious, certainly. But not generally faithless.
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Michael, seeing that I myself are a woman, I would be pleased of you could convince me from the scriptures that Pastor Tim is wrong, but the first argument didn't do it. A prophetess is certainly not the same as a teacher or preacher, yes?

yes a prophetess is not a pastoress but she would have been teaching a mixed audience . Which illustrates a deviation from the pattern commonly observed in 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1 . And also deviating from the Corinthian pattern that forbids women to speak in the Prophecy chapter .

And since there were people who were told to "keep doing what you're doing" . and they were not praised for criticizing people for letting women speak during the church service . It would seem God really doesn't have a problem with women leaders so long as the relationships stay wholesome that develop from that leadership .

but beyond that ..

i'll ask questions . but i will not presume to convince anything .

anything worth knowing is communicated by God directly to our hearts .

until then anything that makes sense will not be for the right reason .

How about Miriam who was a leader of the Israelite community along with Aaron and Moses?

that would seem a substantial elderesque role . how does Miriam strike you?
 
Upvote 0

NorrinRadd

Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian
Sep 2, 2007
5,571
595
Wayne Township, PA, USA
✟8,652.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
It goes without saying that no biblically consistent Christian can support the ordination of women to senior church leadership. Some say that all who support the ordination of women are definitively liberal.

Thus our question.

Are all those who support the ordination of women to senior leadership in the church, to be considered perfidious?

Certainly not. However, those who DO hold the view that we are "perfidious" should probably be considered ignoble and anti-Biblical.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Izdaari Eristikon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2007
6,174
447
69
Post Falls, Idaho
✟32,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
It goes without saying that no biblically consistent Christian can support the ordination of women to senior church leadership. Some say that all who support the ordination of women are definitively liberal.

Thus our question.

Are all those who support the ordination of women to senior leadership in the church, to be considered perfidious?
I would say not, since mainstream Pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God (my church) and Foursquare do support the ordination of women, and we are not even remotely classifiable as liberal churches. Not quite fundamentalist perhaps, but definitely conservative. We are not traitorous, not lacking in faith or in zeal for the faith, nor are we lacking in sincerity. Instead, I think we have a legitimate difference of opinion on the interpretation of some Scriptures. But I won't argue the case for the ordination of women here, since that might be considered to be arguing against a fundamentalist position, something that as a guest I ought not to do.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

NorrinRadd

Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian
Sep 2, 2007
5,571
595
Wayne Township, PA, USA
✟8,652.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
... But I won't argue the case for the ordination of women here, since that might be considered to be arguing against a fundamentalist position, something that as a guest I ought not to do.

How could it in any legitimate sense constitute "arguing against a fundamentalist position," given that it was the stance held by A. B. Simpson and D. L. Moody, and more importantly it does not contradict the Forum Statement of Faith -- at least not if one interprets that SoF in a properly "literalist" way.
 
Upvote 0

Izdaari Eristikon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2007
6,174
447
69
Post Falls, Idaho
✟32,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
How could it in any legitimate sense constitute "arguing against a fundamentalist position," given that it was the stance held by A. B. Simpson and D. L. Moody, and more importantly it does not contradict the Forum Statement of Faith -- at least not if one interprets that SoF in a properly "literalist" way.
But not everyone here does that, and I don't count on the mods doing it. If someone's going to make that case here, it should be someone who's accepted as a member.
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
But not everyone here does that, and I don't count on the mods doing it. If someone's going to make that case here, it should be someone who's accepted as a member.

Such rules are the kind of thing that keeps Jesus out of churches .

If you're established in Him . it shouldn't matter who's asking the question .
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MatthewDiscipleofGod

Senior Veteran
Feb 6, 2002
2,992
267
46
Minnesota
Visit site
✟13,302.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How could it in any legitimate sense constitute "arguing against a fundamentalist position," given that it was the stance held by A. B. Simpson and D. L. Moody, and more importantly it does not contradict the Forum Statement of Faith -- at least not if one interprets that SoF in a properly "literalist" way.

You are saying Moody supported women being senior pastors? Please cite your source.
 
Upvote 0