For Interested Parties...
JPark43 raised a question on Re 17 which can be referenced here (if the link works). Because the post is long, I decided to respond on a separate thread.
Im not totally sure whether Im being asked what it means that the beast is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, or what it means that said beast ascends from the abyss? I think the first is more likely; but Im more confident in speaking to the second. Ill address that point first before moving to the later which, in my opinion, is more important. But before broaching even that, I hope that youll endure a little background on the passage itself.
The five are fallen, one lives and one is yet to come seems to tell readers where these kings fit in history, and offer warning about what is coming. Their apparent specificity and concreteness leads some to think that a succession of real emperors is in view. This continually tantalizes and invites many to guess the identities of the kings. Many explanations are offered. Since opinions vary widely even on where to begin counting, it isnt surprising that options also vary widely.
Some begin with Julius Caesar or Augustus, or Nero, the first emperor to persecute Christians. Some omit the three who ruled for very short periods after Nero. Others count only emperors who were killed (based on fallen in Re 17:10). Some start with Gaius (Caligula) because of his evil treatment of Jews and his attempted blasphemy of setting up his statue in the Jerusalem temple. Still others include only emperors who were deified by the senate. More solutions have been offered for the identity of these kings than for the number 666. In my opinion, attempts to decode the seven kings is doomed to fail. Nor am I convinced that this is key to this passage.
Now my approach to the passage: As an exponent of the Ideal interpretation of Revelation, I believe that part of Johns Spirit-directed strategy is to create a symbolic world that readers can enter, and where their imaginative response to the world is redirected toward the eschatological city of God, in direct opposition to the powers of this world, in Johns day, meaning Rome.
That there are seven kings is no coincidence. Some believe that the number is symbolic. Despite the heavily symbolic understanding Ive described, Im not settled here. The seven heads are also identified with mountains, meaning centers of political and religious power. Parody plays an important role in Revelation. How do these seven cities relate to the cities of the seven churches? Were they the same cities, but seen from the perspective of the beast/world? If so, what does it mean that five fallen etc? I dont know. But the beast rising to war against the Lamb and by extension, against his own is what those churches soon experienced. And Babylons strumpet the Great City that ruled the kings of the earth was the corrupting influence of Rome at work in the seven cities where Jesus followers were to live (or die) faithfully for him. Tentatively, Ill offer that the reference to the seven kings is just that. This is the work of iniquity, through the strumpets allurements and the beasts threatening, that seduced and intimidated the kings of the earth to play by the beasts rules rules which Christians must reject and resist resolutely.
The seven to eight might refer to the apparently deadly wound of one, which lives none the less, and therefore is the eighth, and is of the seven.
The second matter: if you are asking what it means that the beast ascended from the abyss Im marginally more comfortable there. That the abyss is the beasts lair identifies it with Satan, the Prince of demons who animates all that is evil about Rome, and uses Romes power to rule the kings of the earth and thus shape all peoples into the beasts mold. But patience is needed again. In my opinion, there is more moving in this passage than first meets the eye.
This is a parody to the one who is and was and is to come. It is a broken parody since the beast is not now, whereas Christ is, was and is to be. But it makes a profoundly important, theological statement, one that is seldom grasped.
Gods Name Yahweh (or YHWH) is an imperfect form of the verb, to be. But the Hebrew imperfect tense is timeless. This is why some Bibles translate Ex 3:14 I am who I am, and others have I will be whom I will be. BOTH are technically correct. Because the imperfect makes no reference to time (that must be determined by context), the Re 1:8 designation of Christ as the one who is and who was and who is to come is a representation of Gods Name.
JUST as Gods Name represents all that he is to the world, so the beast presents itself as all that YHWH is to the world except in evil parody of broken imitation in the service of Satan. ONLY as we understand the theological import of YHWHs Name do we even begin to comprehend the enormity and the nature of the work of evil that John describes. This can help recognize the import of things we tend to miss.
In Re 17:8, the beast is about to come up or ascend. This word ascend is avnabai,nw anabaino. In Jo 3:13; 6:62; 20:17 Eph 4:-10; avnabai,nw refers to Jesus ascension. Luke has Peter use avnabai,nw on Pentecost in speaking of Jesus ascension (Act 2:34). Avnabai,nw is used in Ro 10:6 where it may be a reference to Jesus resurrection. The Lamb that was slain is raised to life and ascends to the place of all power and authority. The beast that suffered a fatal wound (is not) comes again and ascends to rule the kings of the earth earthly power and authority. My sense is that the beast one of the seven which apparently lives again (as the eighth) ascends out of the pit in a blasphemous parody of Jesus resurrection, ascension and session to the throne. He intends to rule all things (the kings of the earth), but he goes instead to destruction.
Avnabai,nw is used in another way, one that is intriguing, and which may lend some credence to this reading. In Re 9:2, avnabai,nw occurs with kapno,j, (smoke). The bottomless pit is opened, and smoke rises. The same words occur in Re 14:11, where the torment of those who receive the mark of his name [who was, is not but will be]" ascends as smoke.
But the most startling use of this expression (smoke rises) comes from the LXX (Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures). Ex 19:18 reads:
Sinaitic theophany occurs repeatedly in Revelation, with increasing severity in each case (Re 4:5; 8:5; 11:19 and 16:18-21). In these cases, the Sinaitic theophany formula reveals Gods holiness the righteousness of his judgments on the evil, just as on Sinai. Repetition (by commission of the living creatures of the throne) shows that the whole course of judgments manifests the holiness of God. His ways are just and true (Re 16:7; 19:2 cf. 15:3).
Johns purpose is not to compare the divine sovereignty in heaven with the absolute power of human rulers. Quite the contrary, his purpose through parody is to oppose the two. Absolute power on earth is satanic in inspiration, destructive in effects, and idolatrous in its claim to ultimate, worshipful loyalty. It claims divinity by imitating Gods great works across time; but it is utterly unlike divine sovereignty. Anything else subverts the very purpose of Johns prophecy.
God alone is the holy One (Re 15:4). He alone has righteousness as his very nature. The absolute sovereignty which should be attributed to the Creator, who is truth and righteousness in his very being, is not at all the same thing as is claimed on earth. No writer of Scripture shows himself more aware of this difference than John. This is a fact that many who babble nonsense about a so-called Christian nation (whatever THAT means) would do well to consider. But the same is true for us all. The power of evil to shape us in its own image is never so dangerous as when we are unaware of it.
Blessings!
Covenant Heart
JPark43 raised a question on Re 17 which can be referenced here (if the link works). Because the post is long, I decided to respond on a separate thread.
Im not totally sure whether Im being asked what it means that the beast is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, or what it means that said beast ascends from the abyss? I think the first is more likely; but Im more confident in speaking to the second. Ill address that point first before moving to the later which, in my opinion, is more important. But before broaching even that, I hope that youll endure a little background on the passage itself.
The five are fallen, one lives and one is yet to come seems to tell readers where these kings fit in history, and offer warning about what is coming. Their apparent specificity and concreteness leads some to think that a succession of real emperors is in view. This continually tantalizes and invites many to guess the identities of the kings. Many explanations are offered. Since opinions vary widely even on where to begin counting, it isnt surprising that options also vary widely.
Some begin with Julius Caesar or Augustus, or Nero, the first emperor to persecute Christians. Some omit the three who ruled for very short periods after Nero. Others count only emperors who were killed (based on fallen in Re 17:10). Some start with Gaius (Caligula) because of his evil treatment of Jews and his attempted blasphemy of setting up his statue in the Jerusalem temple. Still others include only emperors who were deified by the senate. More solutions have been offered for the identity of these kings than for the number 666. In my opinion, attempts to decode the seven kings is doomed to fail. Nor am I convinced that this is key to this passage.
Now my approach to the passage: As an exponent of the Ideal interpretation of Revelation, I believe that part of Johns Spirit-directed strategy is to create a symbolic world that readers can enter, and where their imaginative response to the world is redirected toward the eschatological city of God, in direct opposition to the powers of this world, in Johns day, meaning Rome.
That there are seven kings is no coincidence. Some believe that the number is symbolic. Despite the heavily symbolic understanding Ive described, Im not settled here. The seven heads are also identified with mountains, meaning centers of political and religious power. Parody plays an important role in Revelation. How do these seven cities relate to the cities of the seven churches? Were they the same cities, but seen from the perspective of the beast/world? If so, what does it mean that five fallen etc? I dont know. But the beast rising to war against the Lamb and by extension, against his own is what those churches soon experienced. And Babylons strumpet the Great City that ruled the kings of the earth was the corrupting influence of Rome at work in the seven cities where Jesus followers were to live (or die) faithfully for him. Tentatively, Ill offer that the reference to the seven kings is just that. This is the work of iniquity, through the strumpets allurements and the beasts threatening, that seduced and intimidated the kings of the earth to play by the beasts rules rules which Christians must reject and resist resolutely.
The seven to eight might refer to the apparently deadly wound of one, which lives none the less, and therefore is the eighth, and is of the seven.
The second matter: if you are asking what it means that the beast ascended from the abyss Im marginally more comfortable there. That the abyss is the beasts lair identifies it with Satan, the Prince of demons who animates all that is evil about Rome, and uses Romes power to rule the kings of the earth and thus shape all peoples into the beasts mold. But patience is needed again. In my opinion, there is more moving in this passage than first meets the eye.
This is a parody to the one who is and was and is to come. It is a broken parody since the beast is not now, whereas Christ is, was and is to be. But it makes a profoundly important, theological statement, one that is seldom grasped.
Gods Name Yahweh (or YHWH) is an imperfect form of the verb, to be. But the Hebrew imperfect tense is timeless. This is why some Bibles translate Ex 3:14 I am who I am, and others have I will be whom I will be. BOTH are technically correct. Because the imperfect makes no reference to time (that must be determined by context), the Re 1:8 designation of Christ as the one who is and who was and who is to come is a representation of Gods Name.
JUST as Gods Name represents all that he is to the world, so the beast presents itself as all that YHWH is to the world except in evil parody of broken imitation in the service of Satan. ONLY as we understand the theological import of YHWHs Name do we even begin to comprehend the enormity and the nature of the work of evil that John describes. This can help recognize the import of things we tend to miss.
In Re 17:8, the beast is about to come up or ascend. This word ascend is avnabai,nw anabaino. In Jo 3:13; 6:62; 20:17 Eph 4:-10; avnabai,nw refers to Jesus ascension. Luke has Peter use avnabai,nw on Pentecost in speaking of Jesus ascension (Act 2:34). Avnabai,nw is used in Ro 10:6 where it may be a reference to Jesus resurrection. The Lamb that was slain is raised to life and ascends to the place of all power and authority. The beast that suffered a fatal wound (is not) comes again and ascends to rule the kings of the earth earthly power and authority. My sense is that the beast one of the seven which apparently lives again (as the eighth) ascends out of the pit in a blasphemous parody of Jesus resurrection, ascension and session to the throne. He intends to rule all things (the kings of the earth), but he goes instead to destruction.
Avnabai,nw is used in another way, one that is intriguing, and which may lend some credence to this reading. In Re 9:2, avnabai,nw occurs with kapno,j, (smoke). The bottomless pit is opened, and smoke rises. The same words occur in Re 14:11, where the torment of those who receive the mark of his name [who was, is not but will be]" ascends as smoke.
But the most startling use of this expression (smoke rises) comes from the LXX (Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures). Ex 19:18 reads:
Sinaitic theophany occurs repeatedly in Revelation, with increasing severity in each case (Re 4:5; 8:5; 11:19 and 16:18-21). In these cases, the Sinaitic theophany formula reveals Gods holiness the righteousness of his judgments on the evil, just as on Sinai. Repetition (by commission of the living creatures of the throne) shows that the whole course of judgments manifests the holiness of God. His ways are just and true (Re 16:7; 19:2 cf. 15:3).
Johns purpose is not to compare the divine sovereignty in heaven with the absolute power of human rulers. Quite the contrary, his purpose through parody is to oppose the two. Absolute power on earth is satanic in inspiration, destructive in effects, and idolatrous in its claim to ultimate, worshipful loyalty. It claims divinity by imitating Gods great works across time; but it is utterly unlike divine sovereignty. Anything else subverts the very purpose of Johns prophecy.
God alone is the holy One (Re 15:4). He alone has righteousness as his very nature. The absolute sovereignty which should be attributed to the Creator, who is truth and righteousness in his very being, is not at all the same thing as is claimed on earth. No writer of Scripture shows himself more aware of this difference than John. This is a fact that many who babble nonsense about a so-called Christian nation (whatever THAT means) would do well to consider. But the same is true for us all. The power of evil to shape us in its own image is never so dangerous as when we are unaware of it.
Blessings!
Covenant Heart
