When is the 'age of the gentile' up?

Covenant Heart said:

How come the meaning of 'this generation' changes as soon as we hit Lu 21?

In ever case without exception, 'this generation' means 'this generation,' i.e., the generation to whom Jesus spoke. Then we come to Lu 21:

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Because in verse 29, "he spake to them a parable" - the yet future "Generation of the Fig Tree" would see all those things. It is an extreme minority position to say the days of vengeance have already passed. As I keep saying, you are hijacking this otherwise focused thread.

IMO, unless the distinction is made between the Israel of God and the church of God, then there's going to be confusion by confounding the two... I often see people treating Matt 24 as if it applies to the church of God when its context is clearly ISRAEL - ie, it speaks of those who are in JUDAEA... and it also speaks of the SABBATH day... things that are applicable to ISRAEL, not the church.

Zadok7000 said:

Because in verse 29, "he spake to them a parable" - the yet future "Generation of the Fig Tree" would see all those things. It is an extreme minority position to say the days of vengeance have already passed. As I keep saying, you are hijacking this otherwise focused thread.

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But hijacking the thread is what its all about, apparently.

I think preterism should not be allowed in the Eschatology forum.

Full preterism is not allowed in Eschatoloy or in any theology forums, however, partial preterism is. Those that hold to full preterism can only discuss their views in the unorthodox theology forum.

Covenant Heart said:

The Quoted Sections,

you will observe a shift (not in my writing, but in what is quoted) in WHAT premise was questioned. Earlier in the thread, the question posed was whether the gospel was preached to all nations and kingdoms by 70 AD.

The question in post # 73 asks something very different, namely, whether the Great Commission ‘ended by 70AD.’

Neither tense nor voice diminish the point: that their faith was discussed at all shows that it was known. Therefore Paul could write that the gospel is being proclaimed throughout the world.

That it was proclaimed shows that the task of evangelization was incomplete. If Guder (Princeton) is correct – and I believe he is – then evangelization (including the continuing conversion of the church) at a modest beginning. But that does not detract from the texts I cited. Nor do those texts militate against the Great Commission.

I’m not entirely unaware of the kind of action depicted by the present tense, and am also conversant with the nuances between the Progressive Present, Gnomic Present, Aoristic Present, Historical Present, the Present for the Future, the Present of Past action Still in Progress and others. I’m also aware that the smallest linguistic unit in the Greek language is the sentence.

I don’t have to reconcile seeming incongruities between what appears to be, and what Scripture proclaims. But I do have to surrender my judgment to the analogy of faith that Scripture proclaims.

So do you.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

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In other words, you really don't have a response. I would suggest studying the other verses you posted grammatically and in context.

Because in verse 29, "he spake to them a parable" - the yet future "Generation of the Fig Tree" would see all those things. It is an extreme minority position to say the days of vengeance have already passed. As I keep saying, you are hijacking this otherwise focused thread.

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He did speak yet future for it was after His resurrection. But if we are to see it as you perceive, then all of the days of captivity that they went through puts us of the minority position in an awkward place since The captivities were the vengeance of God upon and unfaithful people long before the time of the great tribulation of which Christ spoke of which occurred in 70ad. Do some history on the fall of not only Jerusalem but Masada, Judea, and a few other Jewish settlements which had never occurred before. It is a matter of recorded History. Matt 24 is not about the end times for the world but for many of the Jewish nation. There were even false prophets who enabled the fall to be complete by dividing the people against each other just as Christ has said. The record is there for all to read. Matt 24 is not about the end time tribulation for there was no world government as will be when it comes nor was there a beast which comes up out of the sea. Show us where Christ made that prophesy in Matt 24. Therefore the time of the gentiles goes on until....... The seven year treaty of the false prophet with Israel. That is what we should be watching for. Not debating over something which can be verified as having occurred already.

hismessenger

If It Is A Question...

of taking a different position, then the hijacking point stands. But otherwise, how so -- when the passage mentioned in the original post is the one under discussion?

How does the use of a parable change the otherwise standard definition of the expression, 'this generation?"

The assertion that the generation referenced is concurrent with the apostolic generation is anything but an extreme minority position. But again, that is not relevant. The question is, 'what says the Scripture.'

As Hentenza notes, full preterism isn't allowed here. Futurists have a Dispensational forum. Why NOT allow orthodox preterists to post here, on topic? If the original poster asked for remarks by futurists or continuo-historical people, that's one thing. But I didn't realize that people who hold the Ideal view were excluded. So here is my thought on the Scripture in the original post:

Owing to Luke's particular interest in the poor, sick, captives, women and otherwise marginalized peoples, some believe that in the Magnificat and Jesus' Nazareth sermon, Luke provides the hermeneutical key for the record he gives us.

‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor’ (Lu 4:18-19).

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On the Spirit’s leading, Luke records that Jesus read Is 61:1-2. After reading that periscope, Jesus gave the book back to the attendant and said, ‘today, this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing’ (Lu 4:21). But something is missing. Luke stops mid-sentence with ‘to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.’ In this passage which effectively sets Jesus’ agenda, it begs to be asked ‘why.’ Is 61:2 continues, ‘the favorable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God…’ Since the Isaiah passage obviously included the word on vengeance, why does Jesus say that this passage is fulfilled in their hearing – on that day?

People HAD to wonder. I think that early on in his record, Luke focuses his hearers’ attention on the positive message. Just after recording Jesus’ baptism and temptation, he gives this statement about good news, release, recovery and (especially) the year of the Lord’s favor, the Jubilee. But LATE in his record – just before recording the plot to kill him and his passion – Luke there adds the word about ‘vengeance.’

Lu 4:21 and 21:22 are connected by the them of fulfillment. ‘Today, this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing … these are the days of vengeance so that all things which are written will be fulfilled’ (Lu 4:21 cf 21:22). I think that hearing Lu 21:22, people thought, AHA – that’s where the word on vengeance comes!

In other words, I think that by the Spirit’s guidance, it became Luke’s strategy to SEPARATE the Lu 4 word on judgment (vengeance) from Jesus’ agenda-setting statement – in order to tie this vengeance theology on the destruction of Jerusalem, IMMEDIATELY to Jesus’ rejection and death.

The word on vengeance HAD to be fulfilled since Isaiah 61:1-2 was fulfilled. But the word on vengeance is not announced until Lu 21:22; and it is announced there IN ORDER THAT ALL THINGS that are written (i.e., the Is 61:2 word on vengeance) will be fulfilled. Vengeance is NOT mentioned in Lu 4 in order to magnify the grace of the Gospel. But vengeance IS named in Lu 21 as the necessary completion of Isa 61:2.

I believe that this offers a plausible explanation as to WHY the word on vengeance is dropped from Lu 4, and why it IS included instead in Lu 21. It evidences proportion in the location of the two fulfillment statements – one just after his ministry commences, and the other just before his ministry closes. The theme of fulfillment connects both passages in context of this work. I believe that this statement discerns and honors Luke’s strategy in doing his work.

I believe that this is a sane and stable reading of many things. Can brothers of another mind offer something comparable, something that accomplishes the same thing? Or are we to be left with such gems as ‘that generation never dies’ or ‘because a parable is referenced?’ As I asked earlier, is there a serious hermeneutic is at work here, and if so, what is it?

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

Covenant Heart said:

I believe that this is a sane and stable reading of many things. Can brothers of another mind offer something comparable, something that accomplishes the same thing? Or are we to be left with such gems as ‘that generation never dies’ or ‘because a parable is referenced?’ As I asked earlier, is there a serious hermeneutic is at work here, and if so, what is it?

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

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IMO, Luke 21 absolutely speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem with respect to the first century... although what I often wonder is how preterism somehow turns this event into the 'end' for Israel or the end of the age etc... there's so much more in the scriptures pertaining to Israel's restoration in the end times etc etc etc... and with respect to this topic... the times of the Gentiles... Luke doesn't even address that imo...

The times of the Gentiles speaks of Gentile dominion over the earth, and I think that Daniel outlines this. I think that the times of the Gentiles will end when Rev 11:15 is fulfilled.

I guess it would be interesting to know if you consider Rev 11:15 being fulfilled or not.

God Bless !

Are there any others out there who see the end of the 'times of the Gentiles' when Rev 11:15 is fulfilled in the future..?

Just wondering, it's an interesting topic.

As mentioned, I do believe that the 'times of the Gentiles' began with Nebuchadnezzar as outlined in Daniel... but what about the end of Gentile dominion...?

Rev 11:15 is speaking about the coming of Christ from Rev12. The woman who brought forth the manchild. At Christ's birth the kingdoms of this world became the kingdoms of Our Lord. What did He preach? Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. There is a chronological order to Rev when you understand the symbolism used to show the events which have and are to take place. Rev is not a book of time but of eternity told.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

At Christ's birth the kingdoms of this world became the kingdoms of Our Lord.

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So that's an interesting perspective... although I wouldn't agree with it because of the simple fact that Paul tells us that Satan is the god of this present evil world... and it seems to me that is why we are called OUT of the world... and of course John writes that this world is passing away. Peter writes that WE look for a new heaven and earth wherein righteousness dwells.

I also find it interesting that you'd consider Rev 11:15 to be fulfilled before it was written... but there are all sorts of perspectives here in eschatology.

Re 11...

And the two witnesses are based on the well-known dictum that truth is established by several witnesses. These particular witnesses are patterned after Moses and Elijah. Moses confronted blasphemous political power by speaking truth to the Pharaoh. Elijah confronted blasphemous religious power by defying and mocking JezeBa'al and her 400 prophets of Ba'al. Together, they display the meaning of faithful witness in any time and place.

And we understand that.

But we also understand that if we do this, then those satanic powers that guide corrupt religion and worldly power will do to us what they do to the two witnesses.

To avoid the price of faithfulness, we develop theories that push all this into the future. Thank God we don't have to do what they do!

Now we can be more or less comply with the world (and generally it is more rather than less) and STILL expect God's salvation!

I wonder if Yahweh is fooled...

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

Covenant Heart said:

To avoid the price of faithfulness, we develop theories that push all this into the future.

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As mentioned a few posts back, I'd be interested to know WHEN you consider the times of the Gentiles to have been fulfilled.

Hismessenger says it was at the birth of Christ... what say ye ?

Ghost air said:

Are there any others out there who see the end of the 'times of the Gentiles' when Rev 11:15 is fulfilled in the future..?

Just wondering, it's an interesting topic.

As mentioned, I do believe that the 'times of the Gentiles' began with Nebuchadnezzar as outlined in Daniel... but what about the end of Gentile dominion...?

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Hello Ghost air, Yes, there are others out here who think that the "times of the Gentiles" has been fulfilled after Rev.11;15 or the year 2000AD. I agree it's just as Daniel's numbers show it.

Daniel told us that the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar would fall and lose his kingdom. Historically this occurred about 520BC. Therefore Daniel 4;33 tells us that " the same hour was the thing fulfilled."
But it also tells us that after his fall " a full seven times would pass over." Here the book of Revelation calculatively shows us that 7 times equals 2520 years. So therefore Daniel's predicted "seven times" ended in 2000AD.

In Dan.12;6 he asked " how long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" In Dan.12;7 he is answered " for a time, times and a half, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people." Daniel then says " I heard, but I understood not." Dan.12;8 " And he said, Go they way Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
So Daniel could not know the meaning of " a time, times and a half" until the end.
Well today we can know. Only with the last book of the Bible, the end, have we all been able to figure out exactly how much " a time, times and a half really is." This is because the book of Revelations is the "end book" and also because we passed the time of the end in the year 2000AD. The 7th angel has sounded in Rev;11;15 just as you said Ghost air. So we have therefore entered the 7th millennium.

So taking the numbers from this end book of Revelations we can now figure out what Daniel in his time could not.

Rev.11 and Rev.12 by carefully studying them tell us;

3 1/2 times= 42 mts.=1260 days. And Dan.4;16 told us that "seven times shall pass over." So here are the calculations;

The Babylonian exile was in 586 BC.
...they were released after -70 years.
.....................................516 BC.
............................add the 4 years chronological update*
.....................................520 BC.
..............................add 2520 years if 3 1/2 = 1260 then 7 times = 2520.
So Dan.12;6 answer is .....2000 AD.
*James Ussher discovered the 4 years chronological update and it has been installed in every Protestant Gideons Bible you find in hotel rooms ect.

also;
.............there are 360 days in a Babylonian year, Daniel was in Babylon.
.............................7 times of Dan.4;16
.........................2520 - the same number as above.

.............." O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and
.....................knowledge of God." Rm.11;33
......................................................................................................
I have drawn out a chart showing how this fits into our 6000 year history.

3000AD..............THE SECOND DEATH (Judgment day - Rev.20;12)......

..............KINGDOM OF HEAVEN on earth in the E.U. Rev.20;6
....................................................(Christian's millennium)

2000AD.........................................................................................

..............KINGDOM OF HEAVEN within you. Luke 17;21

JESUS CHRIST crucified....................................................................

..............KINGDOM on earth - 12 Tribes of Israel live in promised land.
...........................................................(under Moses's Law)

2000BC.........................................................................................

.............Mankind lives out of Eden with the Serpent(survival of fittest)
............."cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it
..............all the days of thy life." Gen.3;17

4000BC..........Adam and Eve farming in Mesopotamia before leaving........

I would be pleased to hear your opinions about this. dan b

There's A Reason --

Ghost air said:

As mentioned a few posts back, I'd be interested to know WHEN you consider the times of the Gentiles to have been fulfilled...what say ye ?

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You don't get what you ask. If we're talking in context of Lu 21, that's one thing. As I see it, that 'kairos of the Gentiles' was all fulfilled in the apostolic generation (v 22 cf 24).

But I'm guessing you're speaking on context of Re 11:2. In that case, I must inform you that the 3.5 years (42 months) is a symbolic figure. If you doubt that time is used this way, you might consider 2:10 and 17:10. As I see it, such expressions are equivalent to 'a little while' (6:11; 12:12 cf. 17:10). Like the three and a half years, that phrase has an exegetical basis, and a traditional role in the theme of eschatological delay (Ps 37:10; Is 26:20; He 10:37).

The church is assured that her trial is not indefinite. In God's purpose, that trial has a limit, and the kingdom will finally come. This is consistent with Jesus' promise to come 'soon,' but in a way that removes the possibility of chronological calculation. The result? We are left in the tension of imminence and of delay. In the theology of Revelation, the theme delay is just as important as the 'soon' and 'quickly.'

The church is therefore left to pray for the coming of the kingdom, and to hope for the conversion of the nations. That the 'quickly but not yet' is not a chronological but a theological tension explaisn why the delay of the parousia was not the kind of problem for the early church that is is for today's students. Still not satisfied? Too bad! Live with it!

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

I might add Covenant heart that the church is not praying for the kingdom to come but yet witnessing that the kingdom is already here if the nations would only come to believe. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For those who may not understand repentance, it is not just to say your sorry and ask forgiveness but to come to understand what it is that you are doing wrong and then going about seeking to change it to what God would have it to be by the power of the Holy Spirit.

hismessenger

Here Again...

I’m uncomfortable. That’s a little more Preterism than I can swallow. Remember also that I read Revelation thematically and theologically, not chronologically or phenomenologically. That’s why I’m just not interested in 98% of popular eschatology. It’s just plain silly. It is a pernicious little habit that distracts believers from the real task in exactly the same way that crowds were awed by and marveled at Jesus’ display of kingly power – but they didn’t get it or believe him.

The kingdom of God reminds me of Churchill’s depiction of Russia – it is It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.’ What makes it so hard to define the kingdom is that it is the kingdom of God. God himself defies all attempts at description; so it is with his kingdom. We can no more describe the kingdom than we can describe God.

I can affirm that the kingdom is here – how shall I say it – in incipient form? Or that Christ inaugurated the kingdom, but the consummation of it awaits Second Coming, when his chariot throne descends from Glory as in Re 21:2. Until then, and with the hope that the nations WILL come understand, repent and believe, we do pray and witness.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

I believe the time of the gentiles is refering to the present but also to the future when the gentiles will be given one last opporunity to overthrow israel and jerusalem just prior Jesus return
rev 11
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So its there time cause they are given power to destroy the holy city etc when their time is up, i think the door will be shut to gentiles getting saved, and the final harvest of the 144K will be brought in then the resurection will occur (IMO)

Agreed, there are two aspects of the kingdom. One earthly and the other spiritual. When it says in Rev 11:15 that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, it was not speaking in time but in an eternal decree for It is the Revelation of Christ and His office in the creation, not in a time frame.

hismessenger