Many Protestants use this verse to go against 'The Immaculate Conception'

Many Protestants often use Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Protestants use this verse to go against.....Mother Mary is sinless.

First if all have sinned, that means Jesus sinned, but we know Jesus did not sin. Therefore, if Jesus is an exception, Mary can be as well.

Second, Paul means that all people are subject to original sin. Mary was also subject to original sin, but God redeemed her from the moment of her conception. Mary's sinlessness is completely based on the anticipated sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In other words, God let all of us fall into the mud puddle, and then washed us in baptism. For Mary, God did not let her fall into the mud puddle. But both scenarios are based on Christ's redemption.

Third, not "all have sinned," because babies, the mentally retarded, and the senile cannot sin (that is, they are not culpable for their sin). A two year old does not know the difference between right and wrong; therefore it can not sin.

Fourth, the word "all" in Romans 3:23 in Greek is PANTES. It is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 15:22 where Paul says "all" have died. But we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die; they were assumed into heaven. This means that when Paul says "all" (PANTES), he does not mean every single one. In fact, Paul says in Romans 5:19 that "many" were made sinners. This means that when Paul says "all" in regard to sinners, he really means "many."

Jesus Christ's mother Mother Mary was sinless "full of grace"

Hello to you our Lord's dearly beloved Keepon,

Firstly when one's reading the Bible, believe you'll agree that it needs to be read in it's full context for without it then CON men can CON entire Congregations & Generations. Apart from reading it in it's whole context, one must be rightly dividing the Word of Christo.

Please allow me to expound, in the Epistle to the early Romans Church, Paul used the 1st 7 Chapters to Establish the Foundation of us-men being sinful even to the point that we can't save ourselves. As for Romans Chapter 3, Paul (Writer of 70% of the New Testament & also the only writer in the New Testament with the best Revealation of Christ's & His Finished Works) was Illustrating to the Romans that the Jews are demeaning GOD's Standards by going about establishing their own righteousness instead of subjecting themselves to GOD's GIFT of Righteousness hence refusal to accept Christ as their saviour.

As for Mary - Statement like this:- " Mary was also subject to original sin, but God redeemed her from the moment of her conception." Not only it's Not Scriptural but it's from the DEEPEST Pits of Hell regardless whom or where it came from (Am not taking about you Keepon breath easy)

Why? Let's Scripture Interpret Scriptures:-

Lev 14:21 "But if he [is] poor and cannot afford it, then he shall take one male lamb [as] a trespass offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, one-tenth [of an ephah] of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, a log of oil,

Lev 14:22 and two turtledoves or two young pigeons, such as he is able to afford: one shall be a sin offering and the other a burnt offering.

Then get those ppl who made mary thingy statement if they've 'Accidently' Missed this?

Luke 2:22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present [Him] to the Lord

Luke 2:23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the LORD"

Luke 2:24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."

Not only it shows you that joseph & mary are dirt poor, it also shows you that with Jesus, all blessings comes via the 3 wise men with Gold & so forth.

It's True that ALL have sinned & Fall short of the Glory of GOD Romans 3:23

Which in the Original Greek for All ispä's or pronounce as pas = individually, each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything or collectively

Now, have showed you from what's Recorded by Strong's Concordance which ALL Bible Scholars worth their Salt would do well to check & hence those whom claim to have check but 'Badly Mis-Represented' it then wouldn't it be from the darkest Pits of Hell where it Originated from?

As for Mentally Retarded/ babies, it's GOD & believe GOD has HIS Plans for their Salvations & know it's Not written nor Recorded in & from the BIBLE that i know of but I personally believe all of them would be Saved by Christ Himself as His Works of Redemption is Finished-Nothing to add

As to 1st Corinthians 15:22:-

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. NKJV

1 Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. NIV

1 Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. KJV


versus what you stated OTHERS Said:-

Fourth, the word "all" in Romans 3:23 in Greek is PANTES. It is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 15:22 where Paul says "all" have died.

Do you detact any huge Diff? Therefore it's best to read/check it up yourself least anyone Con by CONMEN claiming to know the Scriptures & Mis-Representing them or Turning them upside down

Apostle Paul had this to say to those who 'Perverted/ Changed His Words' or Preach a Gospel (Good News) different to that was preached by him:-

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Question 1: Ever wondered why Paul Speciafically states In verse 8 Angel? Go check what "Scriptures" claimed to have come from an angel

Question 2: why is Paul Reiterating in verse 9 but changed to Person? See how many 'Denomination' perverted the Word of GOD by changing the Words or The Crux of the Message that there's is Therefore NOW No Condemnation for those who are In Christ.

Question 3: What's the Greek for Accursed? It's ä-nä'-the-mä = a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction, devoted to the direst of woes

Question 4: why is Paul Pronouncing a Double Curse? Shall we let Bible Interpret Bible? There's a law of 1st mention, meaning to say there's significant meaning when it's 1st mentioned in the Bible:-

Mal 3:9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, [Even] this whole nation.

Hope I've not left out any unanswered questions or remarks

Shalom

Many of the early church fathers rejected the idea that Mary was without sin. It wasn't until 1854 that the Roman Church made any binding declaration on it. If Mary had been without sin she would have no need for a Savior but Mary clearly rejoices in God Her Savior in the Magnificat. The term "full of grace" is used to speak of all believers in the Scriptures. It is not unique to Mary. I don't have my Bible software in front of me but I believe it's in Ephesians where Paul uses the same phrase to speak of all believers. Certainly Mary was given a unique role and is worthy of our respect and honor and all generations should call her blessed but she wasn't sinless.

1. Mary models for the church and the Christian an authentic piety toward Jesus. Her faith in the announcement of the angel, her praise of God in expecting the arrival of the Messianic era, her contribution and part in bringing forth the kingdom of God to earth, and the sacrifice she had to make in all of this – these four points, as expounded by the Marialus Cultus, have important uses for religious piety. We need to see how faith is “worn” by real people.

2. Mary’s intercession for the church deepens one’s appreciation for the unity of the mystical body of Christ, which is one even over the boundaries of death. Her unique ability to intercede on our behalf, however, is an unjustified development of the doctrine of the communion of the saints that reflects the historical excesses of the role of the saints in procuring grace from God.

3. The veneration of Mary is simply a logical development, after recognizing the graces God gave her. It is not about what she did, but who she is that calls Christians to honor her, in the same way that we honor the presence of virtue among the living. She is worthy of praise, a praise decidedly inferior to God’s, but certainly superior to the average Christian. The New Testament recognizes her singular gifts, and so why shouldn’t we?

While Marian devotion has not always been healthy, and it is clear from the passage of history that the church has often erred on the side of excess – due to causes that are best understood anthropologically – this by no means forces her retirement from active duty among God’s people. She is both a real person and a symbol. The real person is with the Lord, praying for us along with all the saints, and the symbol is the immortal memory of her life on earth, especially coupled with her portrayal in the New Testament.

wildboar said:

Many of the early church fathers rejected the idea that Mary was without sin. It wasn't until 1854 that the Roman Church made any binding declaration on it. If Mary had been without sin she would have no need for a Savior but Mary clearly rejoices in God Her Savior in the Magnificat. The term "full of grace" is used to speak of all believers in the Scriptures. It is not unique to Mary. I don't have my Bible software in front of me but I believe it's in Ephesians where Paul uses the same phrase to speak of all believers. Certainly Mary was given a unique role and is worthy of our respect and honor and all generations should call her blessed but she wasn't sinless.

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Dearly Beloved of our Lord's Wildboar,

Firstly believe you'll agree that we the Believers of Christ must never give a RIP what others say/interpret the Bible-God's Breath to us right? Therefore what the Early Romans Church Foolish OLD Men said has no bearing or whatsoever with the Truths in The Bible which was Clearly Illistarted in my earlier Post that MARY Was FULL of SINS before & after the Birth of Christ for which she went to the Temple & offered Burnt & Sin Offerings for HER Sins

As for the tern used 'Full of Grace', believe NOBODY can find anywhere in the Bible that refers to the Believers except GOD/Christ HIMSELF which is a Blaspheming at Best or Sacrilege for which I must show proof to back up what i've just said:-

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. NKJV

Believe you'll not find anywhere regardless of version used & you'll ever not find it in the Original Greek Version

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

As for Eph which refers to Grace per say to the Believers, could this be the one?

Eph 6:24 Grace [be] with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

Nobody, no not one from the Bible or living today are of any Grace, Grace is a Gift from Christ which all of us (In & out of ourselves which Includes mary are Nothing)

ittarter said:

1. Mary models for the church and the Christian an authentic piety toward Jesus. Her faith in the announcement of the angel, her praise of God in expecting the arrival of the Messianic era, her contribution and part in bringing forth the kingdom of God to earth, and the sacrifice she had to make in all of this – these four points, as expounded by the Marialus Cultus, have important uses for religious piety. We need to see how faith is “worn” by real people.

2. Mary’s intercession for the church deepens one’s appreciation for the unity of the mystical body of Christ, which is one even over the boundaries of death. Her unique ability to intercede on our behalf, however, is an unjustified development of the doctrine of the communion of the saints that reflects the historical excesses of the role of the saints in procuring grace from God.

3. The veneration of Mary is simply a logical development, after recognizing the graces God gave her. It is not about what she did, but who she is that calls Christians to honor her, in the same way that we honor the presence of virtue among the living. She is worthy of praise, a praise decidedly inferior to God’s, but certainly superior to the average Christian. The New Testament recognizes her singular gifts, and so why shouldn’t we?

While Marian devotion has not always been healthy, and it is clear from the passage of history that the church has often erred on the side of excess – due to causes that are best understood anthropologically – this by no means forces her retirement from active duty among God’s people. She is both a real person and a symbol. The real person is with the Lord, praying for us along with all the saints, and the symbol is the immortal memory of her life on earth, especially coupled with her portrayal in the New Testament.

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Dearly Beloved of our Lord's ittarter

Firstly let's see GOD's Breath/Bible difinition of "authentic piety toward Jesus"

Luke 11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed [is] the womb that bore You, and [the] breasts which nursed You!"

Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed [are] those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Do you not know that the Virgin Birth was Predicted Thousands of years ago?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Wait, we now know thru Modern Science that a women in & out of herself has no SEED right?

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

God's Breath foreknowledge that men would PERVERT the word of GOD hence if above verse isn't enough to convince the Believers then it's Reiterated in the Following:-

Matt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

There's many more Prophets in the Old & New testament whom have made MUCH More sacrifice then mary ever imagine & her only part is to give birth. Now, Christ had to come as the man to Redeem us-men hence mary was just a 'vessel' via which a human Child could come forth which is Christ. It's NOT Scriptural to say mary accomplish great feats or sacrifice, do you know who Jesus accorded the MOST Glory to?

Matt 26:12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did [it] for My burial.

Matt 26:13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."

By the way, this Women is known as Mary (The Prostitute) It's REcorded not just in the Gospel of Matthew but Repeated in Mark/Luke & John why? Not all stories are repeated in the 4 Gospels & when & if it's repeated means there's significance in the Truths

(2) Regarding 'Mary’s intercession for the church', it's preaching from the Deepest Pits of Hell & NOT Scriptural (Things of the Spirit which are not from GOD is clarly from the DEVIL) let's see who is our Intercessor Scripturally:-

Isa 59:16 He saw that [there was] no man, And wondered that [there was] no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Above Prophet Isaiah via the Holy Spirit gave us a clue that it's Christ the Son being our Intercessor to GOD the Father

If that's Not Convincing enought then how about this:-

Romans 8:34 Who [is] he who condemns? [It is] Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Not enough? Then how about this to DISSIPATE one & for all whatever notions any has that it's mary doing the Intercession?

Hbr 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, sinceHe always lives to make intercession for them.

(3) your statement "She is worthy of praise, a praise decidedly inferior to God’s, but certainly superior to the average Christian" couldn't be more further from the TRUTH.

You'll not find anywhere anyone (Men of GOD & from GOD the father & Christ the Son) extolling anyone to Praise them. On the Contrary, it's THE DEVIL/ SATAN/ FALLEN Angel who seeks Praise for Himself!

(4) Your forth Statement also very NOT Scriptural, mary is a nobody to pray & all believers are RIGHTEOUS via the GIFT of GOD & Christ via HIS CROSS hence every single Prayers of the Believers are HEARD Directly BY God the Father & GOD the SON + all Believers have the Holy Spirit from GOD within us to PRAY & make Intercession on our Behalf when we pray in Tongues

To Gideon army............

Gabriel greeted Mother Mary in Luke 1:28 "Hail,full of grace". If someone is "Full of Grace" sin which is an imperfection is not there. If you are "filled up with grace", sin can not be there. Now not all Bibles say the same thing "Hail, full of grace". Another Bible I have says " Hail,favored one! ................. 'Highly favoured' (kecharitomene).. Endowed with grace (charis), also means enriched with grace.
It is allowed, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

If you are perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace then sins would be absent.

Many of the Early Church Fathers and Saints belived Mary was without sin. Here is a couple examples.

St.Augustine, 390 AD

"Every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virigin Mary for the sake of the honor of God."

St.Ephraem,350 AD " you, and your Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in you, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in your Mother"

Ambrose of Milan (339-397 AD) said this.

"The first impulse to learn is inspired by the nobility of the teacher. How, who could be nobler than the Mother o God? Who more splendid than she, whom Splendor chose? Who more chaste than she, who gave birth to a body without bodily contact? What should I say, then, about all her other virtues? She was a virgin, not only in body but in her mind as well, and never mixed the sincerity of her affection with duplicity."

Ambrose Autpertus declares that Mary was "immaculate, because in nowise corrupt"

Paulus Warnefridus says that Mary was never "spiritually deserted"

St.Sophronius in his "Synodal Epistle" described Mary as " holy, immaculate in soul and body, entirely free from every contagion"

On Luke 11:27-28 *While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, "Blesed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed," he replied, "rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Some of the Footnotes on Luke 11:27-28...... The beatitude in v 28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of jesus; see the note on 8:21. Rather, it empasizes (like 2,35) that attentiveness to God's word is more important than biological relationshiop to Jesus.

On ISAIAH 59:16

He saw that there was no one, and was appaled that there was none to intervene; So his own arm brought about the victory, and his justice lent him its support.

Of course Jesus Christ is the number One Intercessor. But this does not say that he is the only one. Us humans all are small intercessors for other people when we pray for them to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the "One" Mediator; the Main Mediator. But that doesnt mean that there cant be smaller mediators. This passage does not say dont pray to Mary for intercession

Wow...why is it so obvious to me why "Mary being sinless", goes against the Cross. If Mary was sinless, couldn't she have climbed on the cross and saved the World? I mean, we are all saved because a sinless Jesus died and substituted His death for all of the sin in the world....because He was sinless.

By putting Mary on a sinless pedestal, doesn't that take away from God's glory and the perfect sacrifice? Nowhere have I read that allows a man or woman this status. I get VERY uneasy when I enter a church and there are pictures of saints and other human beings in the sanctuary where God is to be praised and worshiped.

I do not even like pictures of Jesus, because this is of man, not God.

Dearly Beloved of our Lord's Keepon,

Hope that you'll allow me to use the Scripture to Expound Scriptures from what you've quoted in your Post No. 7 point by Point.

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored [one], the Lord [is] with you; blessed [are] you among women!"

Believe the above Scripture Unilaterally Unequivocally Demolish any Notion of mary being HIGHER than any other women for am using Jesus Phrase when He was tempted by SATAN:- It is Written that mary is ONLY blessed Amongst Women & NOT ABOVE

Regarding your quotations from the Church 'early old men', My Resounding Apologies, all men that are from the Church of CHRIST will never cause it's congregation to look towards others or draw their focus away from Christ hence i don't & neither should any Born Again In Christ Believers give a Rip what those OLD Baggers have to say & it's time wasted reading their DUNG for time would be more well spent in my perspective on the ETERNAL Living Word of Christo & to have Him show me Revelations of HIM in & thru His Scriptures My Deepest Apologies

Please allow me to use Scripture to expound Scriptures to you & those whom are Interested why am Furious when Attention are Drawn away from Christ:-

Matt 14:28 And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water."

Food for thought isn't it? When peter was looking/Focusing on our Lord Christ Jesus, he is above all circumstances & above the LAW of Physics regardless of storm / wind or such

Matt 14:30 But when he saw that the wind [was] boisterous,he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"

Wouldn't one agree that The Devil would case the Believers to look away from Christ whom is our Constant Redeemer/ Avanger/ Saviour/ Prosperity/ Shield & Much MOre

Have you Not read:-

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and [they] pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

However, if you do not buy the above quotation from Jeremiah 7 or chapter 44 ( Incidentally In Jer 8:2 GOD said those who Worshipped the so called 'queen of heaven' shall be DUNG - just thought that you might like to know together with all those that advocate mary) & say it's not relevant or that's in the Past then please allow me to present to you accordingly.

But then again the wisest men ever LIved in king solomon apart from Christ recorded via the Holy Spirit:-

Ecc 1:9 That which has been [is] what will be, That which [is] done is what will be done, And [there is] nothing new under the sun.

Isn't History (HIS Story) Repeating all over again?

Keepon, your Quotation of :-

Isa 59:16 He saw that [there was] no man, And wondered that [there was] no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Which you've Interpreted & you've commented:-

Of course Jesus Christ is the number One Intercessor. But this does not say that he is the only one. Us humans all are small intercessors for other people when we pray for them to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the "One" Mediator; the Main Mediator. But that doesnt mean that there cant be smaller mediators. This passage does not say dont pray to Mary for intercession

Hope you're still with me Keepon, If still not convinced then am speechless as it clearly states the following:-

(1) NO MAN which the Original Hebrew is 'iysh translated to man, husband,champion, great man (It's all Male Gender terms & Christ is a MAN/Bridegroom & He is also Champion is He not in & thru the Scriptures?)


(2) salvation which in Hebrew reads yasha` & translated to be liberated, be saved, be delivered, to be saved (in battle), be victorious (Incidentally for this very SMALL Fact that it's the Name of our Saviour That is a safty net in case you've Forgotten Keepon)



(3) His Own Righteousness in the Hebrew tsĕdaqah which is of judge, ruler, king, of Davidic king Messiah, righteousness (of God's attribute), righteousness (as vindicated), justification, salvation & prosperity (of people) (Believe Deaf will Hear/ Blind can See & RETARDS will be Albert Einstein from the above terms of translated which described NONE other than our LORD Christ Himself)

Now, hope that the above have set your sights On Christ & all the original Hebrew speaks of Christ & Christ Alone my friend

Shalom Shalom Shalom, may the Wisdom of Christ be unto you Keepon & all those who worship/pray or whatever word/form you use on her/mary for she too is DUNG without Christ

Whoa, Gideon Army, I appreciate your passion, but let's slow things down a bit, hmm?

Your exegesis is generally inaccurate, and your Mariology dismal. I've read from both sides of this dispute. Have you? I'd guess you have some terrible Protestant hatred toward Mary, fueled by your hatred of the Catholic church. I don't mean to say that in total ignorance, but let's face it, I've known lots of people of the same colors as you, and they all came from churches which taught the Catholic church to be the great abomination of the modern age. By any chance, are you from Northern Ireland?

gideon army said:

Firstly let's see GOD's Breath/Bible definition of "authentic piety toward Jesus"

Luke 11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed [is] the womb that bore You, and [the] breasts which nursed You!"

Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed [are] those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

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And isn't Mary's obedience of the highest kind?

Do you not know that the Virgin Birth was Predicted Thousands of years ago?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Wait, we now know thru Modern Science that a women in & out of herself has no SEED right?

Click to expand...

In Hebrew, the word "seed" can mean sperm OR offspring (besides the usual agricultural sense). Your question is irrelevant.

God's Breath foreknowledge that men would PERVERT the word of GOD hence if above verse isn't enough to convince the Believers then it's Reiterated in the Following:

Matt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

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Not following you here.

There's many more Prophets in the Old & New testament whom have made MUCH More sacrifice then mary ever imagine & her only part is to give birth. Now, Christ had to come as the man to Redeem us-men hence mary was just a 'vessel' via which a human Child could come forth which is Christ. It's NOT Scriptural to say mary accomplish great feats or sacrifice, do you know who Jesus accorded the MOST Glory to?

Matt 26:12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did [it] for My burial.

Matt 26:13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."

Click to expand...

We should not only call Mary blessed because of her obedience. We she call her blessed because she WAS the vessel. Not "just" the vessel. If the contents of the vessel are holy, then the vessel is holy also. This was the ancient thought process in this matter. Thus Mary is rightly accorded the status of Theotokos ("Mother of God").

By the way, this Women is known as Mary (The Prostitute) It's REcorded not just in the Gospel of Matthew but Repeated in Mark/Luke & John why? Not all stories are repeated in the 4 Gospels & when & if it's repeated means there's significance in the Truths

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So you're saying that stories only told once are less significant? Like the Sermon on the Mount? Like Jesus' promise of the coming Paraclete? I'm not going for this weird rule of yours.

(2) Regarding 'Mary’s intercession for the church', it's preaching from the Deepest Pits of Hell & NOT Scriptural (Things of the Spirit which are not from GOD is clarly from the DEVIL) let's see who is our Intercessor Scripturally:-

Isa 59:16 He saw that [there was] no man, And wondered that [there was] no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Above Prophet Isaiah via the Holy Spirit gave us a clue that it's Christ the Son being our Intercessor to GOD the Father

If that's Not Convincing enought then how about this:-

Romans 8:34 Who [is] he who condemns? [It is] Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Not enough? Then how about this to DISSIPATE one & for all whatever notions any has that it's mary doing the Intercession?

Hbr 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, sinceHe always lives to make intercession for them.

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Why do you think that saints who have fallen asleep may not intercede for those who are still awake? Why is this such an evil and terrible idea? If I pray for you, does that somehow minimize Christ's intercessory role? Not in the least!

(3) your statement "She is worthy of praise, a praise decidedly inferior to God’s, but certainly superior to the average Christian" couldn't be more further from the TRUTH.

You'll not find anywhere anyone (Men of GOD & from GOD the father & Christ the Son) extolling anyone to Praise them. On the Contrary, it's THE DEVIL/ SATAN/ FALLEN Angel who seeks Praise for Himself!

Click to expand...

Rom. 9:3-5a NAB For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh. They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah."

This is the kind of praise I'm talking about, namely, recognizing that if God declared her worthy to receive such honor, then so should we.

(4) Your forth Statement also very NOT Scriptural, mary is a nobody to pray & all believers are RIGHTEOUS via the GIFT of GOD & Christ via HIS CROSS hence every single Prayers of the Believers are HEARD Directly BY God the Father & GOD the SON + all Believers have the Holy Spirit from GOD within us to PRAY & make Intercession on our Behalf when we pray in Tongues

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Blah blah blah. Like that, you mean?

gideon said:

Firstly believe you'll agree that we the Believers of Christ must never give a RIP what others say/interpret the Bible-God's Breath to us right?

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Then shouldn't I stop reading what you right? I acknowledge that just as the Holy Spirit guides me so He has guided others throughout history. Those who lived in closer proximity to the time of the Apostles and spoke the Biblical languages as their native language sometimes have insight into texts that we do not have. I also acknowledge that God guides His church.

gideon said:

Therefore what the Early Romans Church Foolish OLD Men said has no bearing or whatsoever with the Truths in The Bible which was Clearly Illistarted in my earlier Post that MARY Was FULL of SINS before & after the Birth of Christ for which she went to the Temple & offered Burnt & Sin Offerings for HER Sins

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The Roman Catholic Church did not really exist until the Council of Trent. But I'm not sure what all the various colors and such are all about since I said that Mary was a sinner..

gideon said:

As for the tern used 'Full of Grace', believe NOBODY can find anywhere in the Bible that refers to the Believers except GOD/Christ HIMSELF which is a Blaspheming at Best or Sacrilege for which I must show proof to back up what i've just said:-

Click to expand...

Highly favored is probably a better translation but full of grace can be rightly understood if it refers to a person being a recipient of God's grace and I'm pretty sure that's what the translators of the Vulgate intended. Later Roman doctrine made the claim that she had grace to give out but that's not what I said.

Ephesians 2:7 was the verse I was looking for. The same Greek word is used.
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The word translated as kindness in Ephesians 2:7 is the same basic word as what is translated "as full of grace" in the vulgate.

I do think we should be careful in not throwing out the Biblical traditions along with the non-Biblical. We should also keep in mind that the traditions about Mary developed mostly not to exalt Mary but to exalt Christ. People started asking questions like, "How could Jesus be sinless if He was born of a sinful person like Mary?" and some of the teachings about Mary developed.

jpcedotal

I have showed you how Saint Augustine and other Early Church Fathers believed Mary was sinless. I have told you about how Mother Mary was "Full of Grace" in my second post.

For Jesus to be sinless Mother Mary had to be a clean vessel.

You cant bring sinless into this world through sin.

Mother Mary had to be sinless.

I think it says somewhere in Job

Who can bring a clean thing thing out of an unclean

Mary had to be a pure vessel to give birth to Our sinless Lord and Savour Jesus christ.

Gideon army....

What is Jesus Christ going to say to you when you get to heaven? Since you are disrespecting Mary his Mother; and our Mother. One of the Ten Commandements is Honor you Father and your Mother. All the Commandments are based on Love. It is not Love to talk disrespectfully about the Holy Mother of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is Lord.


Gideon army.....

Of course Mary is "among women". Mother Mary is a women her self. She is not a God. But she is a sinless women who is "Full of Grace"(Luke 1:28)

"Blessed are you among women" in no way means that Mary is just the same as other women.

Mother Mary is among women; because she is not a God; she is a women given a special grace so she could be a sinless vessel to give birth to our sinless Lord and Savour Jesus Christ.

Gideon army.....

No where in Jeremiah 8:2 does it say "If your worship the queen of heaven; you will be dung"

Thank you, ittarter for defending the Catholic Faith.

Gideon....

Go back to my second post and read how Mother Mary is called "Full of Grace"

Dearly Beloved of our Lord’s Ittarter & Keepon,

Firstly many thanks for your active & robust replies to my post hence shall try my level best in answering all the points raised by you guys as Methodical & Chronologically possible.

Ittarter in your opening post No.12, believe you’ve stated Unequivocally that I quote: “exegesis is generally inaccurate” ? Please allow me to furnish you as per follows:-

(1) Sorry to Disappoint you, am not from any church that advocates anything against any Denomination.

(2) Sorry to Disappoint you, am not a Protestant & also not from Northern Ireland Born & bred in Singapore

(3) Sorry to Disappoint you yet again , I don’t hate catholics per say for I come from a 5th Generation (Maternal & Paternal) staunch Practicing catholic family. Educated in the catholic school system, attended catholic church for pass 30 odd years ‘religiously’ & served as an altar boy for a few years when in was a teen & Nope wasn’t abused physically nor sexually by any priests/ catholics schools ‘brotherhood’/teachers- to that & I praise my Lord Christ Jesus

(4) Do you not know that for GOD the Daddy & Christ the Savior to REDEEM men Righteously & Judicially then Christ needs to come as a man via any women? By saying that mary’s ‘obedience’ is of the Highest Kind shows one’s ignorance as all the prophets who came to preach the Word of Christo suffered MUCH More like being STONED to death & Persecuted look like a walk in the park from your definition.

(5) Your Hebrew translation of SEED isn’t complete hence here goes:- SEED zera` which is also used for : of moral quality & a practitioner of righteousness (Believe DEAF can Hear & Blind can See it’s Referring to Christ Jesus)

(6) If your definition of ‘Blessed mary’ steams from being a ‘vessel’ whom did nothing apart from allowing herself to incubate & produce the KING of kings & LORD of lords then by your own definition isn’t it self contradictory NOT to HONOR all the GREAT Men of FAITH in Hebrews 11? (btw, believe mary enjoyed giving birth to Christ so much that she ended up with a BROOD of Children-Humm, or maybe the ACT of having a BROOD-hard working & diligent in procreating she was wouldn’t you say?)

(7)Believe I did not state anywhere that if a story in 1 Gospel wasn’t repeated throughout the other Gospels is of lesser significance, am just merely Pointing to yours & other readers attention that if a story is repeated in 2 or more (the Prostitute mary whom lavished a year’s wage in oil to anoint Christ feet with her hair was MUCH More significance as The Holy Spirit Reiterated throughout the 4 Gospels when compared to Catholics or any other Denomination quotations fm Luke 1:28 trying to Pervert the Word of Christo in making mary out to be a ‘Highly Exalted’ one when she’s obviously NOT)

(8) Seems like you guys do not know your Bible at all when ppl used mary as a means for Incercession for it’s not Scriptural. Shall let Scripture expound to you via the Scriptures:-


(8a) INTERCESSION is the sole preserved of Christ & the Holy Spirit from GOD the Daddy (hence the trinity GOD head) that indwells all born again believers / New Creation in Christ Jesus. On what Authority I’m making this statement?

Romans 8:34 Who [is] he who condemns? [It is] Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

If above doesn’t convince you that it’s Christ as our Intercessor then how about:-

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them

Do you also not know that Prophet Isaiah Prophecised that Christ will come as per follow:-

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

As for the Holy Spirit that Indwells in us making Intercession for the Believers:-

Romans 8:26 Likewise theSpirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Above quotation on GROANINGS is PRAYER (Singular) & it’s taken from

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Above referring to the True day of Pentecost when Christ has Risen & Glorified hence GOD the Daddy Poured out His Spirit into all the Believers hence they all prayed in Tongues. Do you also NOT know this was Prophecised by Prophet Isaiah?

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people,

(9) Your disbelief that all Living Believers are Saints whom have already Received the Gift of Righteousness via Christ will have their prayers answered by GOD the Daddy & Christ directly? Pls allow me to bring to your attention the following:-

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Established that it is a Gift from GOD the Daddy & Christ?

Proverbs 15:29 The LORD [is] far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous.

However it’s Established that Righteousness is a Gift to those believers in Christ Jesus as shown in Romans 5:17 right? Then pray tell me why king Solomon the wisest men ever lived apart from Christ & Heavenly Daddy under the Holy Spirit of GOD stated CLEARLY without mincing words that GOD hears the Righteous Prayers DIRECTLY?

Paul’s says it best (for me at least ) & it’s dedicated to all who advocates mary to be honored & is your intercessor

1 Cr 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

wildboar said:

Then shouldn't I stop reading what you right? I acknowledge that just as the Holy Spirit guides me so He has guided others throughout history. Those who lived in closer proximity to the time of the Apostles and spoke the Biblical languages as their native language sometimes have insight into texts that we do not have. I also acknowledge that God guides His church.

The Roman Catholic Church did not really exist until the Council of Trent. But I'm not sure what all the various colors and such are all about since I said that Mary was a sinner..

Highly favored is probably a better translation but full of grace can be rightly understood if it refers to a person being a recipient of God's grace and I'm pretty sure that's what the translators of the Vulgate intended. Later Roman doctrine made the claim that she had grace to give out but that's not what I said.

Click to expand...

Hello Wildboar,

Pardon me, English isn't my 1st language hence might not be up to par with the Queen's English or yours for that matter. Am saying so so to establish why am finding your above post MOST contradictory

(1) You stated it's HIS Holy Spirit that Guides you yet claim that it's better to 'study' from those old buggers whom lived closer to the apostles time & understanding their languages & so forth Yet

Contrast a Bit please:-

(2) You Advocate the Vulgate?

Do you not know that A Vulgate refers to:-

The Vulgate is an early 5th-century Latin version of the Bible, largely the result of the labors of Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382 to make a revision of the old Latin translationss.. By the 13th century this revision had come to be called the versio vulgata, that is, the "commonly used translation", and ultimately it became the definitive and officially promulgated Latin version of the Bible in the Catholic Church.

Question: Do you not know that ALL Bible Crazed Child of THE Most HIGH LORD study from Strong's Concordence & Thayer's Greek Lexicon? These are Widely Acknowledge by All Hebrew & Greek Scholars to be the Most Precise Accurate Translations? They also agree that it's the Most Comprehensive when it comes to individual Verb/Noun/Adjective/ Root Word & Much more for each Individual word or sentence used be it Hebrew or Greek

Now, believe can use the Vulgate to clean your Doggie Behind