Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

Stryder06

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Do you believe that everything the apostles taught is in the bible? When the early fathers were writing these things the books of the bible hadn't even been selected. The Church existed long before the bible. In fact, by the time John wrote his revelations the Church had it's fifth pope.
I believe everything that we need for doctrine is in the bible. I believe that not one thing the disciples taught would be contrary to what we have in the bible. And as far as John and Revelation and the RCC are concerned...my opinion on that may be more appropriate in a different thread.

Isaiah 60:17
Sorry. That verse speaks nothing about Bishops and Deacons
 
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chestertonrules

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I believe everything that we need for doctrine is in the bible. I believe that not one thing the disciples taught would be contrary to what we have in the bible. And as far as John and Revelation and the RCC are concerned...my opinion on that may be more appropriate in a different thread.

The problem with your belief is that people who believe the same things about the bible as you reach drastically different conclusions about central matters of Christian faith. Without a sure guide for intepreting scripture we will be scattered and lost, which is what happened to protestantism.

Catholics believe all the bible is the word of God.





Sorry. That verse speaks nothing about Bishops and Deacons

Depends on the translation.

Clement was ordained as a priest by Peter. He was killed for his faith. What motivation would he have for lying?

Why do you think the Christians at Corinth consulted Clement about their dispute?
 
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chestertonrules

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Could you provide sources for that claim please?


Tertullian in Against Heretics gives us the information that Peter ordained Clement:

But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the Apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the Apostles, because they existed in the time of the Apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that (that first bishop of theirs), ed. note bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the Apostles or of Apostolic men a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the Apostles. For this is the manner in which the Apostolic Churches transmit their registers: as the Church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the Church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter.


 
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Tertullian in Against Heretics gives us the information that Peter ordained Clement:

But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the Apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the Apostles, because they existed in the time of the Apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that (that first bishop of theirs), ed. note bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the Apostles or of Apostolic men a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the Apostles. For this is the manner in which the Apostolic Churches transmit their registers: as the Church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the Church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter.

Thank you.

Now, if we go back even further in time, we can see where "everyone" knew and agreed and wrote about John and Polycarp.

Is there an earlier record for Peter and Clement?

IOW, let's try to unfold that roll Tertullian points to.
 
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" For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. "

Ouch.
 
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chestertonrules

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Thank you.

Now, if we go back even further in time, we can see where "everyone" knew and agreed and wrote about John and Polycarp.

Is there an earlier record for Peter and Clement?

IOW, let's try to unfold that roll Tertullian points to.


Be my guest.

Do you have reason to doubt Tertullian?
 
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Be my guest.

Do you have reason to doubt Tertullian?

" For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. "

Tertullian clearly makes a distinction in the WRITTEN RECORD at Smyrna versus the CLAIM at Rome.

So, RCC may want to try to shore that up. Polycarp is substantiated. Rome's claim (Peter-Clement) is not. Besides, there's numerous names between Peter-Clement anyway; from that, we already know Tertullian's showing us a mere vapor, rather than a recorded record.

The reason you may want to do that is the answer to the question of the OP. What did Polycarp teach that Rome does not teach?
 
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chestertonrules

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" For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. "

Tertullian clearly makes a distinction in the WRITTEN RECORD at Smyrna versus the CLAIM at Rome.

So, RCC may want to try to shore that up. Polycarp is substantiated. Rome's claim (Peter-Clement) is not. Besides, there's numerous names between Peter-Clement anyway; from that, we already know Tertullian's showing us a mere vapor, rather than a recorded record.

The reason you may want to do that is the answer to the question of the OP. What did Polycarp teach that Rome does not teach?


I asked if you have reason to doubt that Tertullian was telling the truth.

You have provided nothing.

Rome is a place, not a Church.

Polycarp was Catholic, just like all the early Christians.

Do you have a point?


Also, FYI:

St. Irenæus (III, iii) tells us that Clement "saw the blessed Apostles and conversed with them, and had yet ringing in his ears the preaching of the Apostles and had their tradition before his eyes, and not he only for many were then surviving who had been taught y the Apostles". Similarly Epiphanius tells us (from Hegesippus) that Clement was a contemporary of Peter and Paul.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm
 
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I asked if you have reason to doubt that Tertullian was telling the truth.

You have provided nothing.

Rome is a place, not a Church.

Polycarp was Catholic, just like all the early Christians.

Do you have a point?

You said, " Clement was ordained as a priest by Peter. "

I asked if you have any evidence for that claim. You quoted Tertullian.

Tertullian, however, is now a witness against the claim. He spoke the truth. He says Smyrna has a record, Rome has a "making", an unverifiable claim.

So, you should be able to answer your OP. Folks may hope that Peter ordained Clement, but there's no proof. Unlike the line through Polycarp.
 
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chestertonrules

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You said, " Clement was ordained as a priest by Peter. "

I asked if you have any evidence for that claim. You quoted Tertullian.

Tertullian, however, is now a witness against the claim. He spoke the truth. He says Smyrna has a record, Rome has a "making", an unverifiable claim.

So, you should be able to answer your OP. Folks may hope that Peter ordained Clement, but there's no proof. Unlike the line through Polycarp.


It is not surprising that there wouldn't be a written record given the underground nature of the Church in Rome at that time. Tertullian is a witness TO the claim, unless you are calling him a liar.

Can you find early Church fathers who deny that Clement was ordained by Peter?


Another question you avoided:

Why did the Christians at Corinth consult Clement in Rome when they had a dispute?
 
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Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men, — a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles.
Tertullian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was against heretical teachings. Tertullian calls for the records, the roll of bishops from apostles.

For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed."

Record
John--Polycarp.

Makes
Peter--Clement.
 
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chestertonrules

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Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men, — a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles.
Tertullian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was against heretical teachings. Tertullian calls for the records, the roll of bishops from apostles.

For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed."

Record
John--Polycarp.

Makes
Peter--Clement.


So what?


I repeat:

Do you have any evidence of an early father who disputed Clement's ordination by Peter?

More importantly, what difference does it make if it was Peter or Paul?


You may have missed this because I added it after you had already responded to a previous post:

St. Irenæus (III, iii) tells us that Clement "saw the blessed Apostles and conversed with them, and had yet ringing in his ears the preaching of the Apostles and had their tradition before his eyes, and not he only for many were then surviving who had been taught y the Apostles". Similarly Epiphanius tells us (from Hegesippus) that Clement was a contemporary of Peter and Paul.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm
 
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chestertonrules

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Tertullian

Peter -- Clement


NewAdvent.org-
  1. St. Linus (67-76)
  2. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  3. St. Clement I (88-97)
Trouble is also that NewAdvent.org has Peter's death at 76ad, which is long before Clement's reign that started in 88ad.


Clement was ordained as a priest, not as a pope.

Of course Peter didn't ordain Clement as pope. This choice was made long after Peter's death.
 
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So what?


I repeat:

Do you have any evidence of an early father who disputed Clement's ordination by Peter?

More importantly, what difference does it make if it was Peter or Paul?


You may have missed this because I added it after you had already responded to a previous post:

St. Irenæus (III, iii) tells us that Clement "saw the blessed Apostles and conversed with them, and had yet ringing in his ears the preaching of the Apostles and had their tradition before his eyes, and not he only for many were then surviving who had been taught y the Apostles". Similarly Epiphanius tells us (from Hegesippus) that Clement was a contemporary of Peter and Paul.
[URL]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm[/URL]

Many folks walked about with the apostles.

The claim is "Peter ordained Clement". Ireneaus does not support the claim.

So far, there is zero proof at that. In fact there is ample evidence to the contrary.

What we do have is universal agreement of John to Polycarp.
 
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chestertonrules

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Many folks walked about with the apostles.

The claim is "Peter ordained Clement". Ireneaus does not support the claim.

So far, there is zero proof at that. In fact there is ample evidence to the contrary.

What we do have is universal agreement of John to Polycarp.


It is a commonly held tradition and there is no evidence to dispute it.


It is irrelevant to our greater discussion anyway.

I think it is very likely to be true.

For your sake, let's assume that Tertullian was told some incorrect information.

What difference does it make?
 
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Clement was ordained as a priest, not as a pope.

Of course Peter didn't ordain Clement as pope. This choice was made long after Peter's death.

Thank you. Then the only verifiable apostolic line is from John to Polycarp.

" For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. "

So, the question now is did Polycarp and Rome teach the identical message or not?
 
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chestertonrules

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Thank you. Then the only verifiable apostolic line is from John to Polycarp.

" For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. "

So, the question now is did Polycarp and Rome teach the identical message or not?


You are hopeless.
 
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