Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

Stryder06

Check the signature
Jan 9, 2009
13,856
519
✟31,839.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Catholic Church is biblical. In fact, the Catholic Church wrote, compiled, preserved and proclaimed the New Testament by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The "catholic church" didn't write the new testament. I have no problem with the way they compiled the bible. I never said God didn't have children of His own within the catholic church.

The Catholic Church is the body of Christ and he gave the Church authority.
Can't be. The Catholic Church saying that it is the church isn't good enough for me.

2.2 billion Christians in the world. 1.2 billion Catholics. Largest charity in the world.
No offense but (A) Broad is the way which leads to destruction, and (B) Many will say Lord didn't we do XYZ, and He will tell them to depart.

In every slum around the world you will find Catholic priests, nuns, and laymen working to demonstrate and share the love of Jesus.
Again, there are plenty of charities from churches everywhere that work for the benefit of the downtrodden. This is no guarantee of salvation, nor is it a determining factor of whether or not God is with you.

Catholics, like all others, are sinners. Individual sinners cannot destroy the Church built by Jesus.

Sinners cannot destroy the church because God said that His church would prevail. But being the "biggest church" doesn't make you "the" church.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What you call quote mining is actually clear evidence about what the early Christian's believed and how they worshipped.

It was very productive in providing evidence that the early Christians were Catholic.


It was not productive for supporting your position, if that's what you mean.

:p


One example among hundreds:

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

LOL!!! The few ECF's that referred to apostolic succession can't even agree on a list. ;):wave:
 
Upvote 0

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Sinners cannot destroy the church because God said that His church would prevail. But being the "biggest church" doesn't make you "the" church.


The Catholic Church is the oldest Church, founded by Jesus in 33 AD.

The Catholic Church believes ALL of the bible is God's word, not just selected portions.

The Catholic Church maintains the teachings of the apostles that many other Churches have abandoned.

Consider this from St. Ignatius, who personally knew the apostle John:

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
 
Upvote 0

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
LOL!!! The few ECF's that referred to apostolic succession can't even agree on a list. ;):wave:


And therefore?

They didn't have internet access at the time. Minor changes in the list don't change the reality of apostolic succession.

Can you cite an ECF who disavows the importance apostolic succession like protestants do?
 
Upvote 0

Stryder06

Check the signature
Jan 9, 2009
13,856
519
✟31,839.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Catholic Church is the oldest Church, founded by Jesus in 33 AD.
It wasn't the catholic church that Jesus founded.

The Catholic Church believes ALL of the bible is God's word, not just selected portions.
Believing that the whole bible is God's word doesn't matter much if you don't teach all that the bible says to teach.

The Catholic Church maintains the teachings of the apostles that many other Churches have abandoned.
Again, I disagree. Because the catholic church says that what they do is the same thing the apostles did doesn't work, especially if their teachings don't match what's in the bible.
 
Upvote 0

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Again, I disagree. Because the catholic church says that what they do is the same thing the apostles did doesn't work, especially if their teachings don't match what's in the bible.

Let's read what the apostles taught and see who is currently practicing these teachings.

1) "And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).



2) "For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

3) "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
 
Upvote 0

Stryder06

Check the signature
Jan 9, 2009
13,856
519
✟31,839.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Let's read what the apostles taught and see who is currently practicing these teachings.
Ok, let's do that...

1) "And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
Strike 1

2) "For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).
Strike 2

3) "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
And that's strike three. You say let's see what the apostles taught and then post three statements not from the bible.

And just out of curiosity, your Pope stated that the scriptures said "I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith". Can you tell me what scripture that is, or did I just misunderstand him?
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
They didn't have internet access at the time. Minor changes in the list don't change the reality of apostolic succession.

Minor? I think not. So which list is right? Is the Catholic church list any more believable that the Orthodox Church list?

Did any of the "bishops" prior to the death of John have more apostolic power than a living apostle? Problematic at best.
 
Upvote 0

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
59
Oklahoma
✟24,729.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Of course. We are free to sin or to obey the commandments of Jesus.
Your mistake is in believing that the Holy SPirit leads only one particular group (church) of believers as a whole and not individuals. The weakness and refutation of this assumption is the fact that "individuals" are still left to "discern" which "group" of believers is truly being lead by the Holy Spirit.

If this is true than no individual can "know" for ertain that his discernment is being guided by divine revelation from God therefore can not possibly know which "denomination" is right. Therefore, we can know that the Holy Spirit does lead "individuals," the question is who follows 100% correctly or does anybody get it all right.

At the end of the day what is believed is determined by individual discernment and interpretaion, regardless to which group one belongs or whom he believes.

You base your assertions upon assumptions made by loose interpretation and unfounded interpretation of scriptural text.
 
Upvote 0

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And that's strike three. You say let's see what the apostles taught and then post three statements not from the bible.

Do you believe that everything the apostles taught is in the bible? When the early fathers were writing these things the books of the bible hadn't even been selected. The Church existed long before the bible. In fact, by the time John wrote his revelations the Church had it's fifth pope.


And just out of curiosity, your Pope stated that the scriptures said "I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith". Can you tell me what scripture that is, or did I just misunderstand him.

Isaiah 60:17
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Your mistake is in believing that the Holy SPirit leads only one particular group (church) of believers as a whole and not individuals.



Do you believe that the Holy Spirit leads different groups to different truths?
 
Upvote 0

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
59
Oklahoma
✟24,729.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit leads different groups to different truths?
aNo. The Spirit is leading us all--individually--to ONE truth. We--being human--sometimes arrive at the wrong truth, or flat ignore the urging of the Spirit, get lost, or simply take longer to get to the Truth. It is we people who make mistakes. This is not way detracts from the fact that the Holy Spirit indwells and guides us all individually.

It is ridiculous to say that God will judge us individually for our sinful behavior and not believe that He provides us with the faculties to know the truth individually.

I'll use an analogy that I've used before, but I'll try to be brief.

I own three dogs and love them all dearly. I and my dogs have went on an adventure. I know where I'm going, but since I do not possess three leashes, I simply trust that they will obediently follow me. If they get lost, they'll either find their way home or not.

So, one dog is very loyal and dedicated to me and follows me nearly step for step and is right behind me and as a result, takes the direct and shortest route to my destination. One dog is young and easily distracted, he follows but tends to wander, sometimes straying from the path that I've laid, but always finding evidence of where I'm going and getting back on the right path. He arrives at the correct destination, only it takes him longer to get there and his trip was much more difficult.

The last dog is willful, disobedient, and possesses no loyalty towards me nor does he have faith that I will take care of and provide for him. Therefore, he gets totally lost, taking up with a pack of loose hounds who appear to be better equipped to make it in somewhat scary surroundings, and never makes it to the right destination.

Our destination as Christians is the Truth, the Gospel . . . God. :angel:
 
Upvote 0

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
59
Oklahoma
✟24,729.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Did Jesus start a Church that would teach things that are contrary to his will?
Was that His intent? No, however He identified the source to which we should turn as well as the knowledge we need to follow the Spirit.

What He allowed is freewill of man, since the church is ran be fallible men, errors creep in. It is clearly spoken of in Scripture.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
59
Oklahoma
✟24,729.00
Faith
Pentecostal
a Question Or Two For You. Please Bestow Us With The Courtesy Of Answering.

why Would Jesus Warn Us To Beware Of False rophets/teachers If We Are Not To Trust Our Ability To Discern What Is Truth?

if You Don't Believe The Holy Spirit Guides Individuals, How Do Y Ou Know You Are Correctly Discerning The Truth About Your Faith?
 
Upvote 0

christianmomof3

pursuing Christ
Apr 12, 2005
12,798
1,229
60
in Christ
✟25,915.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I own three dogs and love them all dearly. I and my dogs have went on an adventure. I know where I'm going, but since I do not possess three leashes, I simply trust that they will obediently follow me. If they get lost, they'll either find their way home or not.

So, one dog is very loyal and dedicated to me and follows me nearly step for step and is right behind me and as a result, takes the direct and shortest route to my destination. One dog is young and easily distracted, he follows but tends to wander, sometimes straying from the path that I've laid, but always finding evidence of where I'm going and getting back on the right path. He arrives at the correct destination, only it takes him longer to get there and his trip was much more difficult.

The last dog is willful, disobedient, and possesses no loyalty towards me nor does he have faith that I will take care of and provide for him. Therefore, he gets totally lost, taking up with a pack of loose hounds who appear to be better equipped to make it in somewhat scary surroundings, and never makes it to the right destination.

Our destination as Christians is the Truth, the Gospel . . . God. :angel:
I like the dog analogy.
I heard a dog analogy recently and realized that of my two dogs, one of them I can walk without a leash and she will stay with me while the other will run off. They both love me equally. However, the dog who will stay with me does so out of love and fear. She fears the unknown and feels safer with me so she will not leave me. The other dog has no fear and trusts everyone and everything and she will run off to explore everything. Sometimes a little fear is a good thing.
 
Upvote 0

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Was that His intent? No, however He identified the source to which we should turn as well as the knowledge we need to follow the Spirit.

What He allowed is freewill of man, since the church is ran be fallible men, errors creep in. It is clearly spoken of in Scripture.


It is indeed clearly spoken of in scripture.

Jesus told the leaders of the Church that the Holy Spirit would lead THEM into all truth:

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth


We are to listen to their message:

John 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Matt 28
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."




The apostles warned us about those like the Reformers:

Acts 15
24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
 
Upvote 0

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
59
Oklahoma
✟24,729.00
Faith
Pentecostal
It is indeed clearly spoken of in scripture.

Jesus told the leaders of the Church that the Holy Spirit would lead THEM into all truth:
Then you don't believe the Holy Spirit is guiding you? Just the RCC?
John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you intoall truth
Why do you infer that He is only stating that the Holy Spirit will guide the church leaders? How does one then become a church leader without prodding or guidance of the Spirit?

We are to listen to their message:
Then why did the apostles write letters to churches with explicit instructions to "read" the letters to the congregation. The message that we are listening to is Jesus' message. Are you familiar with these verses?

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2Pe 3:15; And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Col 4:16; And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea.

john 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
How do YOU know who to believe?

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Now look who is wresting Scripture . . . :doh:This is referring to individual disputes among church members, etc . . . it is not referring to church doctrine or teaching.
Matt 28
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Oh, we are to "obey" every thing He commanded them, but we don't have the same reassurance of guidance to truth by the Holy Spirit that they had? Again, I ask you, how do you know you are following the people who are following the Holy Spirit?
The apostles warned us about those like the Reformers:

Acts 15
24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
Oh, that's what you think about the reformers, huh?

You have provided no evidence or substantiation as to why your discernment, interpretation is more true or reliable than mine. You've just cited verses with your own personal commentary and clarification. You've only provided scripture according to the slant of your interpretion and have not said why you are so sure you are right.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Then you don't believe the Holy Spirit is guiding you? Just the RCC?

In my personal life, yes, but not as far as eternal truths. Jesus told us clearly that we should listen to those he sent.


Why do you infer that He is only stating that the Holy Spirit will guide the church leaders? How does one then become a church leader without prodding or guidance of the Spirit?

Jesus was talking to the apostles, not you and I.


Then why did the apostles write letters to churches with explicit instructions to "read" the letters to the congregation. The message that we are listening to is Jesus' message. Are you familiar with these verses?

The apostles are the leaders of the Church. We are to listen to them.




How do YOU know who to believe?

Jesus told us to listen to the Church. He was explicit.


Now look who is wresting Scripture . . . This is referring to individual disputes among church members, etc . . . it is not referring to church doctrine or teaching.

It doesn't matter if the dispute is between individuals or groups. The solution is to listen to the Church.


Oh, we are to "obey" every thing He commanded them, but we don't have the same reassurance of guidance to truth by the Holy Spirit that they had? Again, I ask you, how do you know you are following the people who are following the Holy Spirit?


Of course not. If he meant it as you interpret it we would all agree, right?

Jesus gave us a sure guide. Protestants reject those sent by Jesus.



Oh, that's what you think about the reformers, huh?


Yes. They were full of pride and they substituted their own wills for that of the Church of Jesus.

You have provided no evidence or substantiation as to why your discernment, interpretation is more true or reliable than mine.


It isn't.

That is why we must follow those sent by Jesus, who have been promised all Truth.
 
Upvote 0