Climate Change

Gracchus · Jan 4, 2010

Tell me it's all a hoax after watching this:

Extreme Ice | NOVA | PBS Video

:wave:

Agonaces of Susa · Jan 5, 2010

Gracchus said:
Tell me it's all a hoax after watching this:

Extreme Ice | NOVA | PBS Video

It's all a hoax... :wave:

"Just because you see pictures of glaciers falling into the ocean doesn't mean anything bad is happening. This is something that happens all the time. It's part of the natural cycle of things. We know from measurements that glaciers have been melting for 200 years at least. So it's certainly long before human activities could have caused it. What we also know, going back 4,000 years, is that the glaciers were actually a lot smaller. They actually grew in the meantime. So it seems to be some sort of cyclical process. They grow and shrink and there's no particular reason for being worried just because they're shrinking at the moment. I'm not saying there's no climate change. Of course there's climate change. Climate change is part of the normal order of things, and we know it was happening before humans came." -- Freeman J. Dyson, physicist, September 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

Molal · Jan 5, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KLGqDSAjo http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#p/u/18/52KLGqDSAjo

LordTimothytheWise · Jan 5, 2010

Are there any websites that aren't affiliated with an agenda pushing institution that one could see just the actual figures at or see two rather than just giving one side of the argument?

Molal · Jan 5, 2010

LordTimothytheWise said:
Are there any websites that aren't affiliated with an agenda pushing institution that one could see just the actual figures at or see two rather than just giving one side of the argument?

Get the original datasets from NOAA, NASA and RealClimate. They are freely available, within reason, and completely accessible.

Gracchus · Jan 5, 2010

Agonaces of Susa said:
It's all a hoax...

Agonaces of Susa said:
"Just because you see pictures of glaciers falling into the ocean doesn't mean anything bad is happening. This is something that happens all the time. It's part of the natural cycle of things. We know from measurements that glaciers have been melting for 200 years at least. So it's certainly long before human activities could have caused it. What we also know, going back 4,000 years, is that the glaciers were actually a lot smaller. They actually grew in the meantime. So it seems to be some sort of cyclical process. They grow and shrink and there's no particular reason for being worried just because they're shrinking at the moment. I'm not saying there's no climate change. Of course there's climate change. Climate change is part of the normal order of things, and we know it was happening before humans came." -- Freeman J. Dyson, physicist, September 2007

What is different is the rate of change.
Every new observation indicates that the rate of change is increasing far faster than climatologists first estimated, and that it is faster than any change we can perceive in the past.

The Arctic and Antarctic are warming twice as fast as the rest of the planet.
Do you understand positive feedback loops? Decreased ice and snow cover means less heat reflected into space, means more warming. More warming means more methane released from melting tundra and the Arctic and Antarctic sea floor, meaning more warming. More warming means more water vapor in the atmosphere, and since water vapor acts as a greenhouse gas, more warming. Deforestation , means less carbon tied up in the biosphere, and a consequent rise in CO[sub]2[/sub] leading to more warming.

There is a limit of course, but when the limit is reached it is unlikely that civilization will have survived.

Yes, the planet has survived catastrophic climatic change before. It froze solid from pole to pole once. But it is not just that the temperature is going to go up a few degrees. It means crop failures and famine. It means societal collapse and wars over dwindling resources. The planet itself will survive. That does not mean that human civilization will survive. That does not mean the human species will survive.

Melting glaciers moving faster than they can be replenished, leading to rising sea levels; melting permafrost releasing methane; methane boiling out of the Arctic Ocean near Siberia; rain forests clear-cut to produce a couple of years of crops before relapsing into sterility; polluted oceans with vanishing fisheries that have sustained half the human population; farmland turning to desert... It goes on and on.

All of this is not conjecture. It is observation. It is fact. The hypothesis that the change was caused or exacerbated, by greenhouse gasses was a proposed explanation for the hard and financially inconvenient fact. Millenia of sequestered carbon are being released by burning fossil fuels.

Of course, that won't matter at all because the misery and death won't be ours. It will be the lot of the next generations. What do they matter as long as we can continue our unsustainable lifestyles for our own lifetimes?

It is possible, and I think it probable, that we have already reached the tipping point, and catastrophic change is unavoidable. If we act now to slow the inevitable change and make plans for the necessary adjustments we may be able to ameliorate the effects. But I think that the human race is too stupid and greedy to survive.

:wave:

LUColt27 · Jan 10, 2010

Climates change. That's what they do. The earth has been going through warm and cold cycles since time immemorial, and are doing it again.

Now, if you were to talk about global warming, now that's a total crock. Whoever said that a warmer planet leads to colder temps is an idiot of the highest order.

Gracchus · Jan 10, 2010

LUColt27 said:
Climates change. That's what they do.

But the rate of the present change is unprecedented.

The earth has been going through warm and cold cycles since time immemorial, and are doing it again.

Yes, and sometimes it was accompanied by crop failures and famines. And those were relatively mild changes compared to what is going on now.

Now, if you were to talk about global warming, now that's a total crock. Whoever said that a warmer planet leads to colder temps is an idiot of the highest order.

You studied meteorology where? Warming contributes to instability, and to extremes. You see, the warming is not even. Because it is uneven, wind speeds are higher, and patterns shift. A change in the jet stream has, in the past, brought masses of arctic air into temperate regions. That could lead to shorter but intensely cold winters.

On the other hand the program was about the vanishing ice sheets. But you didn't watch it did you?

The biggest threat however, is drought and desertification. Dry land farming has already depleted aquifers in the American midwest. Deforestation has increased the rate of runoff and erosion. Rising sea levels will further reduce available farmland, and displace millions of people.

There is no reason for the climatologists to lie. There is a reason for the coal and oil industries to lie, and to spend money to spread the lie. And since it is a convenient comforting lie, there are always lots of fools to believe it. After all half of all people are below average in intelligence.

:wave:

Cabal · Jan 11, 2010

LUColt27 said:
Now, if you were to talk about global warming, now that's a total crock. Whoever said that a warmer planet leads to colder temps is an idiot of the highest order.

Ironyyyyyy.....

LUColt27 · Jan 11, 2010

Gracchus said:
But the rate of the present change is unprecedented.

The precedent is most likely there, it's just likely that scientist's records don't go back far enough.

Gracchus said:
Yes, and sometimes it was accompanied by crop failures and famines. And those were relatively mild changes compared to what is going on now.

Maunder Minimum? The previous 4 Ice Ages? Oh, and let's not forget the warmer temperatures between those ages compared to now. But of course, that would actually require scientists to do research rather than fudging the numbers.

Gracchus said:
You studied meteorology where? Warming contributes to instability, and to extremes. You see, the warming is not even. Because it is uneven, wind speeds are higher, and patterns shift. A change in the jet stream has, in the past, brought masses of arctic air into temperate regions. That could lead to shorter but intensely cold winters.

On the other hand the program was about the vanishing ice sheets. But you didn't watch it did you?

Those ice sheets are steadily growing, and have been since 2007. Try again, and this time, make me believe you.

Gracchus said:
The biggest threat however, is drought and desertification. Dry land farming has already depleted aquifers in the American midwest. Deforestation has increased the rate of runoff and erosion. Rising sea levels will further reduce available farmland, and displace millions of people.

There is no reason for the climatologists to lie. There is a reason for the coal and oil industries to lie, and to spend money to spread the lie. And since it is a convenient comforting lie, there are always lots of fools to believe it. After all half of all people are below average in intelligence.

Wrong. Just plain wrong. Global Warming science is about power, specifically, the wielding of that power to make people do whatever they want. The alarmists have every reason to lie, because if they can make businesses cater to their demands despite no legitimate scientific evidence to back them up. Despite what Al Gore and the rest of the scientists want us to believe, the earth is cooling off, all thanks to the lack of major activity from the sun.

Besides, a warmer planet would mean that the tropical belt would expand, and since 90% of all life lives within said belt, they would be able to proliferate and provide more food for everyone.

Freysinn · Jan 11, 2010

LUColt27 said:
But of course, that would actually require scientists to do research rather than fudging the numbers.

Citation needed.

Cabal · Jan 11, 2010

LUColt27 said:
Besides, a warmer planet would mean that the tropical belt would expand, and since 90% of all life lives within said belt, they would be able to proliferate and provide more food for everyone.

No no no no no no.

Dear God, no.

NO.

This is utterly wrong. Increased temperatures (NOTE - NOT CLAIMING WHAT IS CAUSING THEM) are causing crop failures for the current subsistence crops.

Ok, you don't believe the science, fine. But if you're wrong, and we ARE causing this, then this is blood on everyones' hands.

Gracchus · Jan 11, 2010

LUColt27 said:
The precedent is most likely there, it's just likely that scientist's records don't go back far enough.

Ice cores, sediments and other indicators go back hundreds of thousands to millions of years.

Maunder Minimum? The previous 4 Ice Ages? Oh, and let's not forget the warmer temperatures between those ages compared to now. But of course, that would actually require scientists to do research rather than fudging the numbers.

Those who have done the research have come down overwhelmingly on the side of anthropogenic climate change.

Those ice sheets are steadily growing, and have been since 2007.

Citation?

Try again, and this time, make me believe you.

I can't make you believe me, anymore than I could teach an unwilling pig to play piano.

Wrong. Just plain wrong. Global Warming science is about power, specifically, the wielding of that power to make people do whatever they want.

And what do they want people to do?

The alarmists have every reason to lie, because if they can make businesses cater to their demands despite no legitimate scientific evidence to back them up.

If then what? You didn't finish the sentence. What would the power gain for them?

Despite what Al Gore and the rest of the scientists want us to believe, the earth is cooling off, all thanks to the lack of major activity from the sun.

Al Gore is a politician, not a scientist. The evidence for global warming was noticed by scientists in many different disciplines before any attempt was made to explain it. Solar activity was examined and did not explain the warming trend.

Besides, a warmer planet would mean that the tropical belt would expand, and since 90% of all life lives within said belt, they would be able to proliferate and provide more food for everyone.

What is expanding (as can be seen on satellite photos and on the ground) are the desert zones that border the tropics, to north and south. Deforestation has accelerated this process. What used to be farmland mere decades ago is now covered with dunes.

You are not going to make the truth go away by crafting or believing comforting falsehoods.

[ :preach:

]

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants," --- KJV Deuteronomy 30:19

[/ :preach:

]

SkyWriting · Jan 12, 2010

Gracchus said:
And what do they want people to do?

"to find the common ground and one that reflects a series of goals that the president has long advocated, which is to look at the issue of climate as a part of a broader set of interrelated issues of economic development, energy security, dealing with the problems of pollution, and then through that also dealing with the issues of climate change."

G-8 Urges Action On Global Warming, With General Goals - washingtonpost.com

Note the priority.

canehdianhotstuff · Jan 12, 2010

Ahahaahaha. Ice sheets are expanding. Please tell me why the Arctic ice sheet has melted away and opened up a Northern passage for the first time in oh....forever.

Have you even looked at a map of the North Pole region lately and compared it to one from let's say even 30 years ago? Bloody genius you are.

AV1611VET · Jan 12, 2010

If --- and I say --- if this planet's average surface temperature is indeed rising, I assume it would be due to Boyle's Law.

Isaiah 5:14a said:
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself...

As Hell enlarges (to keep the temperature the same), it would put pressure on the earth's surface from underneath, causing volcanoes to erupt and release heat on to the surface.

In addition, as the pressure on the earth's surface increases (due to the diameter of Hell increasing w/o the diameter of the earth increasing to compensate), again, the temperature would rise.

Of course, in the spirit of Nero, scientists are going to blame it on us common folk for spraying fluorocarbons into the atmosphere (fluorocarbons they gave us, by the way) because we got tired of Brylcreem and Dippety-Do and wanted the 'dry look.'

I could be wrong though ---

canehdianhotstuff · Jan 12, 2010

Boyle's Law only applies to a closed system.

SkyWriting · Jan 12, 2010

Gracchus said:
Ice cores, sediments and other indicators go back hundreds of thousands to millions of years.

Those who have done the research have come down overwhelmingly on the side of anthropogenic climate change.

I wondered about that as well. So I checked into it...
(take note that World Class Scientists are surprised by weather facts that don't fit the results they wanted to find)

"Especially astonishing are the very short times needed
for major warmings. A temperature increase of 5�C can occur
in a few decades. " -
Greenland Ice Core Project - Final Report

Cabal · Jan 12, 2010

canehdianhotstuff said:
Boyle's Law only applies to a closed system.

That and the tiny factor that hell is most definitely not under Earth's crust, yes.

canehdianhotstuff · Jan 12, 2010

Lol, yeah and that. I figured I would ignore that one.

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