Does 'Goddidit' constitute an explanation?

CoderHead · Dec 31, 2009

AV1611VET said:
If so, would you please say it using a fancy font, suitable for printing and framing?

You didn't catch the words "the Bible claims" in there, did you? Or did you conveniently overlook it in order to create a nonsense argument? :doh:

AV1611VET · Dec 31, 2009

CoderHead said:
You didn't catch the words "the Bible claims" in there, did you? Or did you conveniently overlook it in order to create a nonsense argument?

Thank you, Coder Head.

Okay if I quote you on this?

sandwiches · Dec 31, 2009

Doveaman said:
Our human knowledge is limited and our critical thinking is completely unreliable when it comes to knowing God and trusting God. This is why we are told:

"Lean not on your own understanding...Do not be wise in your own eyes" - Prov 3:5-7.
It would appear as though you had the "faith" before you had the "evidence". Such a faith will always lead to delusion. That's not how true faith works.

Well considering that for me to accept what the Bible says, I have to have faith in its veracity as its not supported by outside evidence. In fact, some believers, such as AV1611VET, realize this and admit that they have no evidence for their belief.

Doveaman said:
True faith it is based on evidence, and is itself evidence. We cannot have faith without evidence. The evidence leads to the faith, and the faith leads to God:

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty " - Peter 1:16.

Also:

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" -Heb 11:1.

Faith is itself not evidence of anything other than the fact that you belief. And a belief in something is not evidence of the existence of that something. Unless you have verifiable evidence of your belief, then it's just a belief based on faith. If I am wrong and you have VERIFIABLE evidence please show it it.

Doveaman said:
That's because you are relying on your own limited knowledge and on your own unreliable critical thinking. That's because you are relying on your own deceitful human "heart". The human "heart" is unreliable:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" - Jer 17:9.

We should all seek a new "heart", including you:

"Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" - Ezek 18:31-32.

I should have a heart transplant and I'll believe, then. I'm assuming that the heart would have to be from a Christian, right?

Also, what you're saying doesn't make sense since we are told in Proverbs 3:5:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I await for your logic twisting and acrobatics to make this passage be congruent with what you believe the Bible says.

sandwiches · Dec 31, 2009

It's weird but my long post which is absolutely relevant to the topic of 'goddidit' seems to have magically disappeared, as if by a miracle. Maybe goddidit.

So here it is, its reply, and the post I was replying to:

Freespeech said:
sandwiches said:

Freespeech said:

Nathan Poe said:

Freespeech said:

Religion can only be understood by the religious, for every one else religion will forever remain an enigma.

Click to expand...

Or a myth -- one need not believe in something to understand it.

Click to expand...

Do you understand how people can believe there are angels?

Click to expand...

There's several ways that people can believe in angels.

1) They suppress their sense of logic and critical thinking.
2) They want to believe.
3) They have been brought up or taught that angels exist. (Something my mother used to tell me: "Go to sleep so that your guardian angel can go to sleep too.")
4) They look at fortuitous coincidences as acts by angels. (I survived that awful crash. My guardian angel must be watching me.)
5) They take the bible as evidence of the existence of angels. (If the Bible says it, it must be true.)
6) They're afraid that not believing will make them end up in hell.

Et cetera. In the end, everyone who believes must do what #1 says. Suppress logic and critical thinking but the reasons of why they do this differ. Some out of fear, ignorance, apathy, or something else.

I used to believe in angels. So, I can definitely understand how people can believe in these things. However, they are, unfortunately, baseless myths.

One thing that I have noticed between religious people and nonreligious is their willingness or wanting to believe the opposite side. For instance, I have met many many atheists, myself included, who would love to believe that there's a heaven and eternal happiness after we die and I'll see my grandmother again and whatnot. I am openly admitting that I would LOVE to believe all that. However, the knowledge I posses and my critical thinking shows me that in reality, at the very least, there's no reason to believe this is true.

Now, on the other side, I have NEVER met a religious person who would admit to me that they wish they didn't believe in their deity. That they wish they didn't believe in miracles, angels, a heaven, etc. NEVER. NOT ONCE. Not to say that those people don't exist, but I've yet to meet one. Every single religious person I've met do not want to even genuinely consider that they might be wrong for even a second. They do not want to consider the possibility that there might be no after life. That bad people won't get their comeuppance in hell and that their dead relative won't be waiting for them in heaven. They put up mental blocks such as "You're trying to corrupt me," "You're trying to convert me," "I KNOW I'm right," "You're trying to temp me like Satan does," etc. But they simply refuse to just use the brains their deity supposedly gave them and think things through critically.

These mirror stances of one's beliefs lead me to the conclusion that the majority of religious people remain religious because they want to be religious. They want to believe. While people like myself who after years of struggling and lying to myself, I had to admit that religion just didn't add up. It wasn't a choice I made. In fact, I lost belief in my religion after years of crying, praying, begging for one shred of evidence DESPITE the fact that I did not want to lose my faith. So, to parrot what you probably hear in many atheists sites, I do believe that faith in religion is a delusion. A self delusion that people simply do not wish to wake up from.

Religious people believe what they do because they WANT to. Atheists like myself (as I'm sure there are some or many who are atheists without having really thought things through) don't believe because we simply CANNOT.

Click to expand...

I think you are right it all makes complete sense we would rather believe than not believe however crazy that belief might be, I have heard that Atheists just can not believe rather than not wanting to believe.

AV1611VET · Dec 31, 2009

sandwiches said:
It's weird but my long post which is absolutely relevant to the topic of 'goddidit' seems to have magically disappeared, as if by a miracle.

I not only believe in angels, I believe there were satyrs, unicorns, 4-legged grasshoppers, fowled bats, dinosaurs with navels and whales before man.

All evolution-busters.

laconicstudent · Dec 31, 2009

AV1611VET said:
I not only believe in angels, I believe there were satyrs, unicorns, 4-legged grasshoppers, fowled bats, dinosaurs with navels and whales before man.

All evolution-busters.

Only if you have physical proof of the above.

AV1611VET · Dec 31, 2009

laconicstudent said:
Only if you have physical proof of the above.

I'm not familiar with the concept of proof as it applies to the Scientific Method.

Are you?

sandwiches · Dec 31, 2009

laconicstudent said:
Only if you have physical proof of the above.

Exactly. I would love to believe in unicorns, leprechauns, dragons, angels, etc. Where is the evidence, though?

AV1611VET · Dec 31, 2009

sandwiches said:
Exactly. I would love to believe in unicorns, leprechauns, dragons, angels, etc. Where is the evidence, though?

Nuts! I knew I forgot one!

Your word-choice is interesting, sandwiches.

You said "exactly" to "proof" --- but then settled with "evidence".

Wouldn't you rather have proof (whatever that means), or is evidence good enough for you?

Faux pas?

sandwiches · Dec 31, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Nuts! I knew I forgot one!

Your word-choice is interesting, sandwiches.

You said "exactly" to "proof" --- but ended your sentence with "evidence".

Wouldn't you rather have proof (whatever that means), or is evidence good enough for you?

I'll settle for evidence, bud. But you don't have evidence for any of the empty letters you type, isn't that right? As long as no evidence is needed for anything we claim, I say that you're wrong and the Bible was written by one man, like L. Ron Hubbard, who wanted to create a religion to become rich and powerful. Case closed.

Faux pas?

The phrase doesn't mean what you think it does as you used it incorrectly.

laconicstudent · Dec 31, 2009

AV1611VET said:
I'm not familiar with the concept of proof as it applies to the Scientific Method.

Are you?

Yeah. Is this going to lead into a discussion of semantics of "Evidence" and "Proof" that you'll try and use to justify your arbitrary assertion that your claims don't require proof/evidence/whatever?

3sigma · Dec 31, 2009

AV1611VET said:
If so, are you saying the Flood was global?

Im not the one saying it. I think it is utter nonsense that is contradicted by reality, but thats what the Bible claims nonetheless. Are you going to argue that the Bible doesnt claim that the flood was global? Are you going to argue that your God didnt do it?

AV1611VET · Jan 1, 2010

3sigma said:
I’m not the one saying it.

I realize that.

3sigma said:
I think it is utter nonsense that is contradicted by reality, but that’s what the Bible claims nonetheless.

I find it refreshing to see an atheist recognize what the Bible has to say, even though you think it is "utter nonsense." I have always claimed that a literal interpretation of the Bible forces even those hostile to It to admit to what It says.

In an ironic way, I find some atheists more pleasant to talk to than I do my own brothers (and sisters) in Christ.

There are two levels of atheists, in my opinion:

Level 1 atheists don't believe in God, but they will admit to what the Bible says, even though they don't agree with It.
Level 2 atheists don't believe in God, and they twist the Scriptures to fit their own preconceived notions, using words like "magic", "poof", "slaughter", "young maiden" (instead of "virgin"), etc. They think the Bible condoned things like the Salem Witch Trials and the Crusades.

Level 2 atheists are too rich for my blood, and again, in my opinion, it would take the Holy Spirit alone to deal with them.

They are the ones we are not to "cast our pearls" to.

3sigma said:
Are you going to argue that the Bible doesn’t claim that the flood was global?

No, sir, I'm not.

3sigma said:
Are you going to argue that your God didn’t do it?

No, sir, I'm not.

Doveaman · Jan 1, 2010

CoderHead said:
But the fact remains that the Bible illustrates God as a loving father who has created an extra special punishment for those who don't believe in Him without question.

Oh, we can question God, but the problem is when we still refuse to believe Him even after He gives us all the answers. For some people, the answers are never enough:

"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand...For this people's heart has become calloused...and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see...and I would heal them." - Matt 13:13-15.

God want's to heal us, but we refuse to listen. That's because we are not aware of the spiritual cancer that is killing us by the unhealthy foods we prefer to eat..."whose god is their belly" - Phil 3:19.

"The man and his wife" represents all mankind?

Yes. We all eat unhealthy foods, just as they did, and then we all surely die of spiritual cancer as a result, just as they did. We never seem to learn.

God is an invisible God. How much more hidden than that could one possibly be?

God may be invisible, but only to those who don't want to find Him:

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him , though he is not far from each one of us" - Acts 17:26-27.

Oh, that's right...if it makes sense, then it's probably wrong.

That which "makes sense" is relative. If it does not make "sense" it doesn't mean it's wrong either. Have you ever seen a dead man rise? I have.

Doveaman · Jan 1, 2010

sandwiches said:
Well considering that for me to accept what the Bible says, I have to have faith in its veracity as its not supported by outside evidence. In fact, some believers, such as AV1611VET, realize this and admit that they have no evidence for their belief.

AV1611VET has all the evidence he needs, but it's not enough for some people.

Faith is itself not evidence of anything other than the fact that you belief. And a belief in something is not evidence of the existence of that something. Unless you have verifiable evidence of your belief, then it's just a belief based on faith.

That's dictionary faith you are describing, not biblical faith. Biblical faith is evidence and is based on evidence:

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Heb 11:1.

If I am wrong and you have VERIFIABLE evidence please show it it.

I have faith, the biblical type.

I should have a heart transplant and I'll believe, then. I'm assuming that the heart would have to be from a Christian, right?

No, from Christ.

Also, what you're saying doesn't make sense since we are told in Proverbs 3:5:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Click to expand...

I await for your logic twisting and acrobatics to make this passage be congruent with what you believe the Bible says.

This is not a contradiction to what I believe.

We trust in the LORD with all our heart, we do not trust in ourselves with all our heart.

We trust in the LORD to determine for us if what our heart tells us is consistent with His Word.

If what our heart tells us is not consistent with His Word, then we don't trust it. And it's always inconsistent, so we never trust it.

We trust in the LORD.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" - Jer 17:9.

AV1611VET · Jan 1, 2010

Doveaman said:
AV1611VET has all the evidence he needs, but it's not enough for some people.

sandwiches · Jan 2, 2010

Doveaman said:
AV1611VET has all the evidence he needs, but it's not enough for some people.

So, he does have evidence. This is very contradictory. Either he has evidence or he doesn't. Of course, he has, in multiple occasions, made it clear that he has no evidence. Are you saying he lied to us or he's wrong?

Doveaman said:
That's dictionary faith you are describing, not biblical faith. Biblical faith is evidence and is based on evidence:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Heb 11:1.
I have faith, the biblical type.
No, from Christ.
This is not a contradiction to what I believe.

Fine. Then you believe things that you HOPE FOR and to you this belief is evidence of things you don't see. Semantics. The fact remains that this evidence cannot be verified by those who do not already believe.

Doveaman said:
We trust in the LORD with all our heart, we do not trust in ourselves with all our heart.

We trust in the LORD to determine for us if what our heart tells us is consistent with His Word.

If what our heart tells us is not consistent with His Word, then we don't trust it. And it's always inconsistent, so we never trust it.

We trust in the LORD.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" - Jer 17:9.

So, you're saying the Bible tells us to trust God with the most deceitful and and wicked organ in our bodies? That surely clears things up.

Tzaousios · Jan 2, 2010

3sigma said:
Again, I have not said that nor am I saying it now. Im saying that Christianity is a religion that praises a God that allegedly slaughtered children and commanded its followers to do the same. Christians worship and respect this child-slaughtering God.

I am curious as to why you have not gone all out to say that Christians would do this. What is holding you back?

3sigma said:
Yes. There are numerous passages in the Old Testament where your God commands its followers to slaughter every man, woman and child. It doesnt need to be specific about their ages because it commands that they must all be killed, though it does mention little ones in Deuteronomy 2:34 and every infant and suckling in 1 Samuel 15:3. Here are some of the passages.

Deuteronomy 3:2-6 referring to Deuteronomy 2:32-34
Deuteronomy 7:2
Joshua 10:40 (referring to all the smiting with the edge of a sword that Joshua had done)
Joshua 11:11-15
1 Samuel 15:2-3

Have you read the Old Testament? Its riddled with stories of slaughter.

Yes, I have read the Old Testament. Where does God command Christians to do these things? Where have you seen in a Christian liturgy or service that God is praised specifically for killing children?

Gracchus · Jan 2, 2010

3sigma said:
Again, I have not said that nor am I saying it now. Im saying that Christianity is a religion that praises a God that allegedly slaughtered children and commanded its followers to do the same. Christians worship and respect this child-slaughtering God. It just goes to show what some people are willing to do in return for the promise of eternal life.

Tzaousios said:
I am curious as to why you have not gone all out to say that Christians would do this. What is holding you back?

It is not necessary to say that Christians would do it, because Christians have done it!

:wave:

3sigma · Jan 3, 2010

Tzaousios said:
I am curious as to why you have not gone all out to say that Christians would do this. What is holding you back?

What holds me back is an understandable inability to predict the future. I cannot say for sure what Christians would do if they once again had the political power to impose their will on others as they did during the centuries of Inquisitions, Crusades and witch hunts, but I sincerely hope it doesnt happen within my lifetime.

Yes, I have read the Old Testament. Where does God command Christians to do these things?

I just gave you several examples from the Old Testament of your God commanding its followers to slaughter children.

Where have you seen in a Christian liturgy or service that God is praised specifically for killing children?

You asked where in the Old Testament your God commands its followers to slaughter children and I gave you several examples. The Bible also claims that your God itself deliberately slaughtered every child on the planet. I dont know of any liturgy or service that praises your God specifically for slaughtering children, but I cant see any good reason why a child slaughterer should ever be praised at all. Do Christians simply overlook the Biblical claim that your God once slaughtered every child on Earth? I find it difficult to understand how or why Christians apparently overlook or condone such behaviour, unless it is because they are so afraid of their own inevitable deaths that they are willing to overlook anything in return for the promise that they will never really die.

Does 'Goddidit' constitute an explanation?

Knee Dragger

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός

Senior Veteran

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