Does 'free will' actually exist?

Oh sorry. I was just addressing the points in regards to Yeshua's humanity.
Well, personally I believe that God calls us, and it is up to us to respond. We have the choice to choose to follow the call or not. Not everyone responded to the call of Yeshua by following Him. Some chose not to. When God calls us, we have the freedom of will to chose to follow God or not.

However that is not to say that even if we choose not to follow God, he cannot still use us divinely. Nothing is impossible for God, and anything that is required as part of His plan, will happen. If we are to be used by God, then we will be used, whether we follow God or not.

Of course we do not have free will when it comes to what God decides. What God says goes! However when it comes to obeying God, we do have choice. I thought this whole debate is based on the freedom of will to chose to obey or disobey. The fact that God may use us (we cannot have a say in this) doesn't mean that we do not have the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey. God can use someone who has chosen to disobey, just as he can use someone who has chosen to obey. There is still freedom to choose.

God can will for a satanist (who was introduced to the gospel but turned away) to pull a Christian to one side, causing the Christian to cross the street 20 seconds later, preventing the Christian from being run over by a bus and killed. The satanist has the freedom of will to choose not to follow God, just as the Christian has the freedom of will to choose to follow God. The fact that the satanist has been used by God, does not mean that the satanist does not have free will. The satanist has chosen to disobey God.

Heber said:

How do you have free will if what he says, goes and in any case, he'll use you even if you don't want him to? How do you reconcile both ways round?

There's a certain illogicality in that argument, I think.

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I explained my point of view in the analogy provided.

Heber said:

So you are saying that G_d purposely created us with the option to disobey, to choose to sin? Then our sin is his fault, is it not?

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Not any more then you giving your kids, lets say, money and therefore the option to disobey and sin makes it your fault when they spend it the on harmful or useless things instead of the good ones.

I do understand where you are coming from Heber.

I do think that both ways round can be reconciled though. We are not robots, we are given the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey God.

We choose where we are going tonight, what road we will take when driving, etc. We have choice. However if it is God's will to intervene and cause something to happen then it will happen; what God says(wills) goes. If it is God's will (for whatever reason) for us to take a different road tonight, in order to avert a car accident in which we would be killed, then he can work through a secondary cause, such as a friend calling asking you to stop by first, or a tree falling and blocking the road. We would have chose to go the normal road, but if God wanted to preserve us for whatever reason, then we will be preserved.

However, if we are not to be preserved, and there is not reason to intervene, then we will choose to take the normal road and will end up in the accident. God does not will that we die in a car accident. We die in a car accident because of a secondary cause, such as someone else driving under the influence. The cause of the car accident is not to be directed at the primary cause which is God. However God can intervene through a secondary cause also.

In either scenario we are exercising freedom of will to choose.

Heber said:

Quite right - we should teach them not to spend in inappropriate ways, just as our heavenly father teaches us not to act in inappropriate ways.

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Yes He does teach us. But just like your kids, they have the capacity to choose to spend the money in harmful ways, no matter how much you teach them, they will always have the capacity. Humanity has freedom of will to choose.

I agree with the position Te'oma holds. While God's will always trumps ours, and He can override our decisions and choices becasue he is God, a certain degree of free will is indeed given to us,regarding believing, for example

It is indeed a great mystery, as Anisavta said, for nobody fully knows how the choice comes about.

Free will doenst mean "choice done in a vacuum or nothing have influenced it" That is a big mistake to think so, as usually pointed out by Arminians or noncalvinists of various stripes.
It just that the outcome is not absolutely determined by the outside (of an agent, who does the choosing) influences.

If there is no free choice, then we dont have the responsibility. How can a person be justly held reponsible if he had no choice and couldnt have possibly done otherwise? IOW, if he is a slave to _____(whatever that forced him to do such and such).

Heber said:

So you are saying that G_d purposely created us with the option to disobey, to choose to sin? Then our sin is his fault, is it not?

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Every decision we make in life has consequences; whether good or bad. God is not our dictator, if He were, we'd all be made to be robots. He gave man the ability to think, process information, and then decide for himself. God can not be blamed if man chooses to do evil. He wants a relationship with us, not following Him just because we 'have to or die'. That is what dictators do. However, if you want to live in His commonwealth, He still does have His laws because law without freedom is bondage and freedom without law is anarchy. He has a perfect balance and if we wish to represent Him, we have to live within His laws. We can disobey at any time if we wish to, but because we claim to be His, we have to face the punishment of breaking those laws. 'He who lives in the law will be punished by the law; he who lives without the law will also be punished without the law'.

Think of Nineveh. God said, 'In 40 days, Nineveh shall be destroyed'. When God says 'shall', 'will', or such words, it means that it is going to happen or you must do. 'These are My feasts which you shall keep in their proclaimed season'. Truth is, Nineveh was going to be destroyed because of its evil. However, someone believed what God said and changed what was going to happen by their own choice to turn things around; praying for God to demonstrate His unfailing mercy. Now, was Jonah a false prophet? Absolutely not! What he said was true. But God is also true to His nature and word. They repent and therefore an entire nation was spared because they believed what was to happen and turned to God.

Heber said:

These are good examples, too. Thank you.


'Free will held captive' cannot, by definition, be free will, surely?

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It would depend on what context free will is given.

We are all slaves either to hasatan or to G_d

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That is basically the point which I was making.

the question of true free will, as millions today think they can exercise it, is that they have to be slave to one of those two and, therefore there is no free will to opt out from either; they must be G_dly or satanic.

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How free is a person to willingly choose one or the other? How free is the person's will to exercise a choice?

The idea of freewill, how millions today think of it, depends on what kind of context it is given within an individuals understanding. "True free will" should only be defined within the scriptures and I believe the scriptures do not show absolute unrestricted freewill too. Which is the point I think you are making? However do they show there is utterly no free will at all? Concider that without some sort of freewill, would repentance exist at all?

It could be said Adam and Eve were given some kind of potential to freely choose the tree of life too by their will, "And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Ge 3:22). And that potential has been limited and cut off, "So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." (Ge 3:24)

So only the higher Authority has that power, "it is in the name of the Messiah, Yeshua from Natzeret... There is salvation in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!" (Ac 4:10,12) to allow any and all of mankind access to eternal life, "For God may perhaps grant them the opportunity to turn from their sins (repentance), acquire full knowledge of the truth." (2 Ti 2:25)

I do believe a case can be made that freewill exists within a biblical context, that it is what gives an individual partial power to participate in their salvation, "Therefore, let us exert ourselves to enter into that rest, that not anyone fall in the same example of disobedience" (Heb 4:11 LITV)

There is no such thing as a free lunch (apple or not!) or free will.

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To think of free will as something that is absolute and without restriction, as a power only unto itself, I agree with you, because if it were so then surely ...

"Then I will also confess to you That your own right hand can save you." (Job 40:14)

To think free will does not exist in any or some form, then how can the following be possible?

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." (Mt 16:24)

Heber said:

So where does Matthew 7 and Revelation 21 fit in to all this freedom we have?

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I'm kinda missing what you are getting at here. If God didn't allow man to have freedom of choice then you'd have to say that all who go to hell, God made them go to hell. God is responsible for those who have eternal life or die and we are merely pawns on God's 'game table'? 'For there is no respector of persons with God', 'God tempts no man'; He tests man but He doesn't tempt man. You can't test someone if they have no choice.

Heber said:

Just saying that there are an awful lot of Scriptures that raise questions about 'free will' (not to mention the Calinist view of salvation only by pre-destination - to which I do not subscribe). It isn't as cut and dried as we like to think.

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While I don't believe that God has left all to fate and knows nothing, I also don't agree that He has our every moved planned out and has us destined for hell or eternal life the moment we are born. I don't believe in salvation by predestination or the 'once saved always saved' idea. It is not as 'cut and dried' as some like to make it. However, how I personally see it is also not that hard to see.

Te'omaAbadEl said:

Yeshua did have the choice to sin being in the flesh, and 'technically' it would have been possible for Him to disobey God;

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Just want to say that I take that back. I don't believe there was any possibility at all that Yeshua could have sinned. I know you disagree Heber, but I just wanted to clarify.

Shalom.