The James 4:5 controversary....

rcorlew · Nov 24, 2009

James 4:5 said:
Or do you think it is without reason the Scripture says that the Spirit He has caused to live in us yearns jealously?

OK this is part of the Bible Study lesson for my class on November 29, and we have been going through the book of James and when I came across this verse it was like I hit a wall.

First off this, I really had no clue what the verse meant which is not good since I lead the class.

Secondly as I dug into this verse I uncovered that I am not the only person who has had this problem, and to make it even more unclear some translations actually use quotation marks indicating that this was a quote from elsewhere in the Bible which is not the case which only adds to the debates about Biblical inerrancy. (Which is not where this thread is intended to go by the way)

I read a number of commentaries and apologetic explanations about this issue and found no common ground or consensus enough to satisfy my curiosity. To make it even more difficult, the Bible Study broke off after verse 5, then after discussion time picked back up at verse 6. I was thinking about not even including that (verse 5) into the discussion as some of the members of the study are in theological seminary which can be intimidating at times and other times lead to some really interesting discussions.

Now I pulled out my other Bible, the one I use for reading my devotions in which is NIV with notations, they have it broke down differently and included verse 6 as part of the block of text instead of starting a new paragraph after verse 5. That was when I realized James was doing what I do quite a lot of and that is expanding a thought and then using scripture quotations to strengthen his position. I would bet that many people do that in conversations on a regular basis, give an explanation the quote scripture.

So here in verse 5, it is really part of an expansion started in verse 4, goes through 5 and culminates in verse 6 with a quote from Proverbs 3:34. Now putting all this together it looks like this:

James 4:4 - 6 said:
You adulteress people, do you not know that friendship with the world is hatred towards God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think that Scripture says without reason the the spirit he (God) caused to live in us envies intensely? But He gives us more grace. That is why the Scripture says: "God opposes the prooud but gives grace to the humble."

Now the last part still had me stumped for a bit, God making us jealous?

Well jealousy is a two way street and God has paved it, in Exodus 20:5 God states that He is a jealous God, but why; because He does not want anything to come between us and Him. This verse points out the reciprocal of that by saying that we are to be jealous back at Him and desire that nothing come between Him and us, and in the context specifically that object of conflict is pride and arrogance that we are to keep from coming between us and God.

Just my thoughts, any other thoughts on the subject?

wayseer · Nov 24, 2009

rcorlew said:
OK this is part of the Bible Study lesson for my class on November 29, and we have been going through the book of James and when I came across this verse it was like I hit a wall.

First off this, I really had no clue what the verse meant which is not good since I lead the class.

Secondly as I dug into this verse I uncovered that I am not the only person who has had this problem, and to make it even more unclear some translations actually use quotation marks indicating that this was a quote from elsewhere in the Bible which is not the case which only adds to the debates about Biblical inerrancy. (Which is not where this thread is intended to go by the way)

I read a number of commentaries and apologetic explanations about this issue and found no common ground or consensus enough to satisfy my curiosity. To make it even more difficult, the Bible Study broke off after verse 5, then after discussion time picked back up at verse 6. I was thinking about not even including that (verse 5) into the discussion as some of the members of the study are in theological seminary which can be intimidating at times and other times lead to some really interesting discussions.

Now I pulled out my other Bible, the one I use for reading my devotions in which is NIV with notations, they have it broke down differently and included verse 6 as part of the block of text instead of starting a new paragraph after verse 5. That was when I realized James was doing what I do quite a lot of and that is expanding a thought and then using scripture quotations to strengthen his position. I would bet that many people do that in conversations on a regular basis, give an explanation the quote scripture.

So here in verse 5, it is really part of an expansion started in verse 4, goes through 5 and culminates in verse 6 with a quote from Proverbs 3:34. Now putting all this together it looks like this:

Now the last part still had me stumped for a bit, God making us jealous?

Well jealousy is a two way street and God has paved it, in Exodus 20:5 God states that He is a jealous God, but why; because He does not want anything to come between us and Him. This verse points out the reciprocal of that by saying that we are to be jealous back at Him and desire that nothing come between Him and us, and in the context specifically that object of conflict is pride and arrogance that we are to keep from coming between us and God.

Just my thoughts, any other thoughts on the subject?

Good thoughts.

James 4:5 "Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? (NRSV).

For me, this passage illustrates that God desires nothing but good for us and having given us that 'spirit' which he then protects - and anyone who has given cause for such to be tested knows that eventually God get's his way.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb. 10:31)

Good luck with the class.

1whirlwind · Nov 24, 2009

James 4:5-7 Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But He giveth more grace, Wherefore He saith, "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

4:10-11 Humble yourselves in the sight of the LORD, and He shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

The devil is in the pride. Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. [Proverbs 16:18]

The Holy Spirit teaches those with ears to hear...not all have ears to hear and they are provoked to jealousy, they are proud in their knowledge but it is the knowledge of the natural man...the letter of the Word, not the spirit of the Word. Often when those the Spirit teaches share that knowledge the proud "lusteth to envy" and "speaketh evil of his brother," judging his brother wrongly.

To answer your question....It isn't that God makes us jealous. It is the natural man filled with pride that is jealous.

11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Stryder06 · Nov 24, 2009

It looks to me like you have it figured out pretty well. What's the problem? And don't worry about not knowing something just because you're the lead. It's always best to say "I don't know" and then look it up then to pretend like you do.

MamaZ · Nov 24, 2009

Our God is a jealous God. Therefore We are not to become friends with the world.

Dorothea · Nov 24, 2009

Footnotes from my study Bible:

4:1-10 Wars and fights in the Church are another example of the result of faith without works. Such disputes come from desires or passions which bring disruption in the body of Christ. These passions are divisive (v. 1), self-centered (v. 3), of this world (v. 4), energized by Satan (v. 7) and therefore at enmity with God (v.4). God does not answer prayers for our selfish desires (v. 3). Adulterers and adulteresses: The image of unfaithfulness in marriage for the faithlessness of God's people is common throught the OT.

How do we conquer arrogant pleasure-seeking? (1) Stop praying for self-centered pleasures (vv. 2, 3). (2) Renounce the world and build a friendship with God (v. 4). (3) Yield to the Holy Spirit who dwells in us through chrismation (v. 5). In seeking the Holy Spirit we gain the Holy Trinity! (4) Be humble, recognizing that God resists the proud (v. 6). (5) Resist (be insubordinate to) Satan and submit to God (v. 7). (6) Approach God in worship (draw near). Take special care to cleanse your hands and purify your hearts through repentance in preparation for worship (vv.8, 9). Never laugh off God's call to mourn for sin.

rcorlew · Nov 24, 2009

wayseer said:
Good thoughts.

James 4:5 "Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us? (NRSV).

For me, this passage illustrates that God desires nothing but good for us and having given us that 'spirit' which he then protects - and anyone who has given cause for such to be tested knows that eventually God get's his way.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb. 10:31)

Good luck with the class.

Thanks wayseer, I find comfort in the fact that you and I actually agree on something! I also find it comforting that God gives us a spirit that makes us love Him so much that when we (true believers) find something has come between God and us that we will want to remove it. It could be anything from TV to our job or sports or family, but He will share with His flock when they are getting out of line with something.

Yet another reason to love and adore Him!

wayseer · Nov 25, 2009

rcorlew said:
Thanks wayseer, I find comfort in the fact that you and I actually agree on something!

We agree on much but if we happen to disagree such should not make us feel any less comfortable.

rcorlew · Nov 26, 2009

It is great to be able to have dialogue with people that have many different points of view, it makes you think about things, or at least I do, and test my own positions. One thing that I really enjoy about having conversations (per se) with you is that you do not take offense with differing views and start trying to slam somebody, you just state your case, and many times the logic behind your position.

One thing that I have come to realize through our dialogues is that the suppositions that many well intentioned people have about God and Christianity are of their own accord and seem rather one sided. That is by no means a slam or anything like that, it is just that many people try and put God in a little box of their own design and fail to see that God is bigger than any box, and that the bigger you make Him, the more glorious He becomes and the more blessed we should feel that He calls us friends.

To me Christianity has always been about the righteousness of Jesus for the glory of the Father, and never about me. I take very literally my own cross, which has taught me humility and a reluctance to judge as I am not worthy to carry the sandals of the One who sits on the Mercy Seat of Judgment.

Peace Brother!

LiturgyInDMinor · Nov 26, 2009

rcorlew said:
It is great to be able to have dialogue with people that have many different points of view, it makes you think about things, or at least I do, and test my own positions. One thing that I really enjoy about having conversations (per se) with you is that you do not take offense with differing views and start trying to slam somebody, you just state your case, and many times the logic behind your position.

One thing that I have come to realize through our dialogues is that the suppositions that many well intentioned people have about God and Christianity are of their own accord and seem rather one sided. That is by no means a slam or anything like that, it is just that many people try and put God in a little box of their own design and fail to see that God is bigger than any box, and that the bigger you make Him, the more glorious He becomes and the more blessed we should feel that He calls us friends.

To me Christianity has always been about the righteousness of Jesus for the glory of the Father, and never about me. I take very literally my own cross, which has taught me humility and a reluctance to judge as I am not worthy to carry the sandals of the One who sits on the Mercy Seat of Judgment.

Peace Brother!

EVERY human being has presuppostions and suppositions about GOD. Noone is immune.

rcorlew · Nov 26, 2009

NRB said:
EVERY human being has presuppostions and suppositions about GOD. Noone is immune.

And I was one of them until I really studied the teachings of Jesus, it was then that I learned that what I thought I knew was wrong and that I had to forget almost all of it and learn as though I were a little child, hearing it for the first time.

I have learned and am still learning to see things completely differently. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you truly pray for the Wisdom of God that you will receive it, now I am not claiming that I am like Solomon or some great prophet, but God grants me wisdom as is required to tend His flock, and man does that change things A LOT!

LiturgyInDMinor · Nov 26, 2009

rcorlew said:
And I was one of them until I really studied the teachings of Jesus, it was then that I learned that what I thought I knew was wrong and that I had to forget almost all of it and learn as though I were a little child, hearing it for the first time.

I have learned and am still learning to see things completely differently. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you truly pray for the Wisdom of God that you will receive it, now I am not claiming that I am like Solomon or some great prophet, but God grants me wisdom as is required to tend His flock, and man does that change things A LOT!

I am glad for you.

RMDY · Nov 26, 2009

Deeds don't save you, but one should act out their salvation through deeds. Paul once said that he preaches that everyone should also prove their repentance by their deeds. Makes sense I guess. For instance, your not going to say your saved and then go the next moment to a pagan temple to offer incense to Buddha...

Jazmyn · Nov 26, 2009

rcorlew said:
Now the last part still had me stumped for a bit, God making us jealous?

The Spirit in us is jealous, it's a Godly jealousy, since we belong to God and God wants us for Himself.

People's New Testament
4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain? The reference is to De 32:1-47, where God's love and jealousy of his people are described. The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? Long unto envying (Revised Version). Long for our love even to the envy of the worldly objects which have secured it. The Revised Version suggests the idea, which harmonizes with the thought in Jas 4:4. A freer translation will make it plainer. The spirit that he (God) hath placed in us desireth us jealously, that is, desires we should not commit adultery with the world, but be wholly devoted to God, as those espoused to God in Christ, and even envies the world which has secured our love.

"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." (Galatians 5:17)

"I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Corinthians 11:2)

"Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" (1 Corinthians 10:22)

Here are some more Scriptures if anyone wants, (it's a bit long so I've put them in spoilers):

"Then the LORD will be jealous for his land and take pity on his people." (Joel 2:18)

"Then the angel who was speaking to me said, "Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion," (Zechariah 1:14)

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "I am very jealous for Zion; I am burning with jealousy for her.'" (Zechariah 8:2)

"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (Exodus 34:14)

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." (Deuteronomy 4:24)

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," (Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9)

"for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land." (Deuteronomy 6:15)

"Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins." (Joshua 24:19)

"The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies." (Nahum 1:2)

"They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding." (Deuteronomy 32:21)

"They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols." (Deuteronomy 32:16)

"He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood." (Ezekiel 8:3)

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." (Deuteronomy 4:24)

"for our "God is a consuming fire.'" (Hebrews 12:29)

"To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain." (Exodus 24:17)

"Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it." (2 Samuel 22:9, Psalm 18:8)

"See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire." (Isaiah 30:27)

"the LORD Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire." (Isaiah 29:6)

"But be assured today that the LORD your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the LORD has promised you." (Deuteronomy 9:3)

"The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail." (Isaiah 30:30)

"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?'" (Isaiah 33:14)

"In fierce anger he has cut off every horn of Israel. He has withdrawn his right hand at the approach of the enemy. He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire that consumes everything around it." (Lamentations 2:3)

"Judah did evil in the eyes of the LORD. By the sins they committed they stirred up his jealous anger more than their fathers had done." (1 Kings 14:22)

"I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger." (Ezekiel 16:38)

"Then my wrath against you will subside and my jealous anger will turn away from you; I will be calm and no longer angry." (Ezekiel 16:42)

"I will direct my jealous anger against you, and they will deal with you in fury. They will cut off your noses and your ears, and those of you who are left will fall by the sword. They will take away your sons and daughters, and those of you who are left will be consumed by fire." (Ezekiel 23:25)

"Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations." (Ezekiel 36:6)

"Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them--all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger." (Zephaniah 3:8)

"'Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them." (Numbers 25:11)

"He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.'" (Numbers 25:13)

"He replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.'" (1 Kings 19:10,14)

"'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name." (Ezekiel 39:25)

1whirlwind · Nov 26, 2009

rcorlew said:
And I was one of them until I really studied the teachings of Jesus, it was then that I learned that what I thought I knew was wrong and that I had to forget almost all of it and learn as though I were a little child, hearing it for the first time.

I have learned and am still learning to see things completely differently. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you truly pray for the Wisdom of God that you will receive it, now I am not claiming that I am like Solomon or some great prophet, but God grants me wisdom as is required to tend His flock, and man does that change things A LOT!

Praying for wisdom and understanding of His Word is as it should be....

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you.

Lamentations 4:4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.

Matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him.

7:7-11 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him?

Luke 8:9 And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, he may give it you.

James 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

We, as His disciples, should ask Him for understanding of His Word. And..."it shall be given" if we ask for the proper reasons...as written in the fourth chapter of James. There is the answer to your question about jealousy.

Now the last part still had me stumped for a bit, God making us jealous?

Well jealousy is a two way street and God has paved it, in Exodus 20:5 God states that He is a jealous God, but why; because He does not want anything to come between us and Him. This verse points out the reciprocal of that by saying that we are to be jealous back at Him and desire that nothing come between Him and us, and in the context specifically that object of conflict is pride and arrogance that we are to keep from coming between us and God.

God is a jealous God but He doesn't cause jealousy in us....He is jealous for us and will not share with another god. Rather the jealousy written of is from our own pride and ego. It is because the Spirit is in some, teaching them, that causes others to be jealous...it is not the Spirit causing the jealousy but our own spirits causing our own jealousy.

James 4:2-3 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

The James 4:5 controversary....

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