What did Mary ever do to you?

mont974x4

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be honest, you know many people do
the only reason for her to be ever virgin, sinless, and co-redeemer is for idolatrous purposes

it is best to stick to what Scripture actually tells us and calls for us to do and avoid even the appearance of evil
 
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simonthezealot

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The catholic Mary is responsible for a ridiculous amount of idolatry in our world. The biblical Mary who was humble and obedient would be mortified to see what catholics have done with her image, creating an almost deistic identity.
 
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seashale76

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be honest, you know many people do
the only reason for her to be ever virgin, sinless, and co-redeemer is for idolatrous purposes

it is best to stick to what Scripture actually tells us and calls for us to do and avoid even the appearance of evil

I am being honest. I don't know anyone who does this.

The only appearance of evil I'm seeing are from those who consistently and willfully prevaricate regarding the beliefs of others.
 
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seashale76

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The catholic Mary is responsible for a ridiculous amount of idolatry in our world. The biblical Mary who was humble and obedient would be mortified to see what catholics have done with her image, creating an almost deistic identity.

Oh, I can play this game too. Iconoclasts are responsible for a ridiculous amount of atheism in our world.
 
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boswd

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The catholic Mary is responsible for a ridiculous amount of idolatry in our world. The biblical Mary who was humble and obedient would be mortified to see what catholics have done with her image, creating an almost deistic identity.


I love how you always show your bias distorting opinions of the Catholic Church by always singling them out. You never go after the High Anglican's and I think you are scared of the Orthodox:p Both revere her in the same manner as the Catholics.

Too funny though
 
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I love how you always show your bias distorting opinions of the Catholic Church by always singling them out. You never go after the High Anglican's and I think you are scared of the Orthodox:p Both revere her in the same manner as the Catholics.

Too funny though

Actually, both the Anglicans and the Orthodox revere Mary differently than does the Catholic Church. You will not find Anglicans making pilgrimages to Lourdes or Guadalupe and, in truth, rarely making pilgrimages at all. Nor do they have the statuary of the Catholic Church before which they bow and burn candles. Likewise, the Orthodox do not use statuary, but only two-dimensional paintings (icons).
 
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polishbeast

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Actually, both the Anglicans and the Orthodox revere Mary differently than does the Catholic Church. You will not find Anglicans making pilgrimages to Lourdes or Guadalupe and, in truth, rarely making pilgrimages at all. Nor do they have the statuary of the Catholic Church before which they bow and burn candles. Likewise, the Orthodox do not use statuary, but only two-dimensional paintings (icons).

So a statue is idolatry but an icon isnt?
 
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mont974x4

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I am being honest. I don't know anyone who does this.

The only appearance of evil I'm seeing are from those who consistently and willfully prevaricate regarding the beliefs of others.


accusations of false witness in regards to people making comments on a doctrine and referring to Scripture is certainly something I would consider to be an evil. We have not strayed from the truth. We have pointed out a truth that you refuse to acknowledge.
 
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boswd

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Actually, both the Anglicans and the Orthodox revere Mary differently than does the Catholic Church. You will not find Anglicans making pilgrimages to Lourdes or Guadalupe and, in truth, rarely making pilgrimages at all. Nor do they have the statuary of the Catholic Church before which they bow and burn candles. Likewise, the Orthodox do not use statuary, but only two-dimensional paintings (icons).


Anglican's don't have Statues of Mary in some of their church's? or Icon's or Our Lady Chapels? or Stained Glass windows that depict her with her Crown on her head? Maybe not the low church's but the High churchs and even some broad Church's most certainly do.

and what exactly is the difference between lighting a candle or incense in front of an painting icon as opposed to a statue icon? You may want to visit an Orthodox Service and a High Anglican church and then come back.

This is complete double standard. sorry it just is

You might want to rethink your post.
 
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Dorothea

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Really, it just comes down to a couple simple differences. The Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans remember Mary in their services, and they remember other servants of God, throughout the year. Many Protestants don't. They remember Mary at Christmas that she bore Our Savior, and then forget about her the rest of the year.

That's the difference. There's no worshipping, idolatry, etc. There's remembering and honoring holy Christians before us as they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
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boswd

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Really, it just comes down to a couple simple differences. The Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans remember Mary in their services, and they remember other servants of God, throughout the year. Many Protestants don't. They remember Mary at Christmas that she bore Our Savior, and then forget about her the rest of the year.

That's the difference. There's no worshipping, idolatry, etc. There's remembering and honoring holy Christians before us as they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.


QFT:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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boswd

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Does anyone remember the old Happy Days shows, when Fonzie was wrong but just couldn't say the word "Wrong" he would say I was wrrrrr, I was wrrrr. I was not fully correct.

I wonder if Evangelical Pastor's are like that around Christmas time "and Mmmmmm and*pauses* and Mmmmm *pauses, cathes his breath, The Woman who gave birth to Jesus rode into Bethlahem.

Just can't say Mary.:p
 
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Thekla

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Actually, both the Anglicans and the Orthodox revere Mary differently than does the Catholic Church. You will not find Anglicans making pilgrimages to Lourdes or Guadalupe and, in truth, rarely making pilgrimages at all. Nor do they have the statuary of the Catholic Church before which they bow and burn candles. Likewise, the Orthodox do not use statuary, but only two-dimensional paintings (icons).

But instead, pilgrimages to Walsingham ...


Walsingham%20procession.jpg




http://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk/welcome/index.htm
 
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ittarter

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I am from a Protestant background, but had the good fortune of teaching a class on Mary to a group of young Protestant evangelicals at college. I co-taught with Dr. Tim Perry (the real expert between the two of us), who in October 2006 published Mary for Evangelicals. This experience, I believe, gives me a unique perspective on the current topic, and in this post I will set up and propose what I will call a healthy and informed Protestant response to Mary.

Currently, Protestantism is pretty much ignoring Mary, an awkward stance to say the least, considering her eminence in the history of the church prior to 1600, both in doctrine and piety. This is typically justified, I suspect, by the slippery slope fallacy: if we start thinking of Mary as more than a historical character such as Moses or Peter or Elisha or Paul, we will inevitably embrace all the Catholic abuses and exaggerations of true Christian belief. This causes a great degree of apprehension around the subject, an attitude begun by the 2nd generation of Reformers who saw embodied in Mary everything that the Catholics and Protestants disagreed about:

1) the role of humanity in salvation, sola gratia and sola fide, free will
2) the tension between natural theology and revelation, science and religion, human and divine
3) the relationship between scripture and tradition, authority of the institution, the papacy

Howver, the fact is that Mariology and Christology, and derivatively soteriology, are closely intertwined. A minimalist Mariology eventually blossoms into a minimalist Christology. For example, take Theotokos, the primary Marian designation of the early church. Reject or accept? If you reject it, you are saying that Mary was only the mother of the human half of Jesus, but not the mother of the second person of the Trinity. Hence, his identity is compromised, divided into two in accordance with the Nestorian heresy.

However, Nestorius’s chief concern was not theological but devotional. Saying that Mary is the mother of God elevates her to the status of divinity. Thus, he advocated the title Christotokos, the mother of Christ, which would not lend itself to the exaltation of the human personage who was only consenting to the divine will, rather than playing an active role.

The pastoral problem is obvious. On the one hand, we have a circuitous route for salvific grace to be transmitted from God to man; for if Mary is indeed situated in the divine realm, whether as the incarnation of the Holy Spirit (so Leo Boff) or as the mother who consoles her angry Son (so Alphonsus de Liguori), then she is a vessel of grace in a way comparable to her Son, rather than being the vessel of grace-predicated person, namely, the Son (so Aquinas). Mary becomes not only venerated, but an independent vehicle of salvation.

If, on the other hand, Mariology is ignored altogether and Christology suffers as a consequence – as appears evident by the development of Protestant theology toward 19th century liberalism, and even today in the minimalist Unitarian vision of Jesus’ identity – then we end up with no divine savior instead of two. The yea or nay in regard to the Theotokos title seems to set the church off into two different directions, both of them ultimately failing to maintain orthodox and functional Christian monotheism.

I don’t know what a Protestant mariology would look like. I do agree, however, that they need to take her as their own, and not worry about finding themselves overrun with maximalist tendencies resulting in the full-blown worship (i.e. adoration) of Mary. There is a much greater awareness of the heresy of two saviors than the heresy of no savior. Remember T. S. Eliot: not with a bang, but a whimper. Protestants need to take steps to escape both ends.

-----------

Besides the theological question, here are some basic ideas how the figure of Mary can deepen religious piety in the Protestant wing of the church (thereby abstaining from that deep respect for the authority of tradition which is held by both the Catholics and the Orthodox.)

1. Mary models for the church and the Christian an authentic piety toward Jesus. Her faith in the announcement of the angel, her praise of God in expecting the arrival of the Messianic era, her contribution and part in bringing forth the kingdom of God to earth, and the sacrifice she had to make in all of this – these four points, as expounded by the Marialis Cultus, have important uses for religious piety. We need to see how faith is “worn” by real people.

2. Mary’s intercession for the church deepens one’s appreciation for the unity of the mystical body of Christ, which is one even over the boundaries of death. Her unique ability to intercede on our behalf, however, is an unjustified development of the doctrine of the communion of the saints that reflects the historical excesses of the role of the saints in procuring grace from God.

3. The veneration of Mary is simply a logical development, after recognizing the graces God gave her. It is not about what she did, but who she is that calls Christians to honor her, in the same way that we honor the presence of virtue among the living. She is worthy of praise, a praise decidedly inferior to God’s, but certainly superior to the average Christian's. The New Testament recognizes her singular gifts, and so why shouldn’t we?

While Marian devotion has not always been healthy, and it is clear from the annals of history that the church has often erred on the side of excess – due to causes that are best understood anthropologically – this by no means forces her retirement from active duty among God’s people. She is both a real person and a symbol. The real person is with the Lord, praying for us along with all the saints, and the symbol is the immortal memory of her life on earth, especially coupled with her portrayal in the New Testament.

For further study, a good place to start, besides the Marialus Cultus, is this article by Timothy George published in January 2007 in First Things.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
 
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Anglican's don't have Statues of Mary in some of their church's? or Icon's or Our Lady Chapels? or Stained Glass windows that depict her with her Crown on her head? Maybe not the low church's but the High churchs and even some broad Church's most certainly do.

and what exactly is the difference between lighting a candle or incense in front of an painting icon as opposed to a statue icon? You may want to visit an Orthodox Service and a High Anglican church and then come back.

This is complete double standard. sorry it just is

You might want to rethink your post.

I am fully aware that there are some individuals and some churches among the Anglican Communion that engage in such practices even as the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City has a stained glass window depicting the signs of the Zodiak. Does that mean that all Anglicans are engaged in astrology? I think not. Does that mean that none of them are? I think not again.

I have attended several varieties of Anglican services as well as Orthodox services and can attest that those that venerate Mary are a very small minority within Anglicanism (especially if you look at the large number of African Anglicans - who are quite evangelical in their theology and Low in their liturgy). As for the Orthodox, although the theology is similar to that of Catholicism the practice does differ. I do know the difference between a three-dimensional representation and a two-dimensional representation and I have yet to find any status in any Orthodox church. Have you?
 
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Does anyone remember the old Happy Days shows, when Fonzie was wrong but just couldn't say the word "Wrong" he would say I was wrrrrr, I was wrrrr. I was not fully correct.

I wonder if Evangelical Pastor's are like that around Christmas time "and Mmmmmm and*pauses* and Mmmmm *pauses, cathes his breath, The Woman who gave birth to Jesus rode into Bethlahem.

Just can't say Mary.:p

Cute but wrrrr, wrrrr, well, not fully correct.
 
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Indeed. However, I think you will agree that one pilgrimage doth not a theology make. As I noted in another post, these individuals represent a very small minority within Anglicanism. Anglicanism, which is based upon the Thirty-Nine Articles, hardly endorses (nor denies, for that matter) such personal practices and beliefs.
 
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Dorothea

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(Due to a problem quoting, I've just responded here) Thank you, ittarter, for your well-thought out post. Your explanations and comments were refreshingly objective coming from a Protestant perspective. :)
 
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