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Note that Paul said we're to wait for and remain obedient until the appearing (epiphaneia) of the Lord (Titus 2:13, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Timothy 6:14), and that this same appearing or brightness (epiphaneia) must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). There's no 3rd appearing (epiphaneia) of Jesus....don't miss the day when Christ appears...
I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9)....the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit will be lifted...
Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming....some who will miss the wedding...
Note that Luke 12:36 is a parable, and that we must "watch" for that coming (Luke 12:36-40, compare Matthew 24:42). There's no 3rd coming....who are told to be ready for our Lord when He returns from the wedding...
"Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). Note that Jesus is referring to when "the Son of man cometh," and he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:44. I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come....the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not...
Note that it doesn't show the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) getting saved during the tribulation. It's possible they were saved before the tribulation began....in the midst of persecution, suffering and martyrdom, they repented of their defilement...
Overcomers must be faithful unto death in tribulation (Revelation 2:10-11)....rewarded as 'overcomers'...
I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation:...(Luke 21:36)...
No one should lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. No one should lose the hope even if they are at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7) goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15)....a "blessed hope"...
Originally posted by JesusServant
How do you know, rollinthunder, that postrib isn't more ready to go and righteous than you? You can't know, only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can know these things. How do you know that postrib thinks he can live however he wants and has plenty of time to do whatever? I think he just disagrees on the order of Revelation as opposed to the order that you believe, that's all.
Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
This is a good and valid point you bring up. Only God knows who is ready, as far as being worthy enough. You could be right as far as the timing and still miss it, but this was not my point. No man is qualified to determine if another will be worthy enough to be raptured. I will not be judged or compared to what you have done. Each of us must stand alone.
I was only talking about the timing. And here is my point:
If I am wrong and Christ does not rapture the bride before the tribulation, then I have lost nothing because I can very easily go to plan B. But if a post-tribber is wrong and gets caught off guard, he is in a heep of trouble, including loss of rewards, and not only that, he must now give his head or realize that he will never enter into the Kingdom of heaven. All I'm saying is that it is much wiser to be ready now, as the scriptures clearly warn us to keep watch. But hey, I can't force you to be ready, and neither would I want to. We will all stand alone. Cheers!!!
Originally posted by JesusServant
I see what you're saying. But if we're always ready, then we're always ready eh? You seem to think however, that there is a chance to give your life to Christ now and be raptured, during the great trib you'll have to die for your belief to make it into the Kingdom, am I perceiving this right? I know this is what a lot of pretribbers teach from the many many books and movies.
Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
JesusServant,
This is a very good question. I am no longer a pure pre-tribber, but I used to be. Yes, I believe that the bride will escape all that will happen in the tribulation, because the Bible makes that pretty clear. The problem I have with the pre-trib theory is that they believe everyone who has ever accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior will be raptured. Too many people are just assuming that this is true, but the scriptures prove otherwise. Jesus didn't give us idle warnings of rubbish.
The Lord has given me a few messages to write about in these last days. And when He gives me a message, He will also give me a confirmation. So far, all the confirmations have come in a different way. When I was writing my rough draft for, "A MYSTERY: The Rapture and the Parable of Ten Virgins" my confirmation came in the form of a dream. For me, this is very odd. It's odd because I almost never remember what I dream. I can remember only one or two dreams per year, and the ones that I do remember are so strange that I can't understand what they are about. But this dream was very clear, and I believe it is the glue that holds that thread together. He gave me a scripture in that dream that I wouldn't have thought to use.
Here it is: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it," [Matt. 16:24-25].
Jesus said the old man must die. It's one thing to say we believe, but it is another to live those words. He said not to be hearers only, but doers. Most christians are not obeying this command, and yet they falsely believe that they will be raptured. Jesus said, "My Father will honor those that serve me." But He also said, "If you love me, you will obey me." The Bible also says that "Everyone born of God overcomes the world."
These are very, very strong statements!! I think the first step in overcoming this world is overcoming "self." We must deny ourselves, be crucified with Christ and let Him reign in our lives. If He is truely our Lord, then He owns us. We can't just do as we please and expect that He will rapture us. This is the difference between the wise virgins and the foolish ones. Everyone knows that Christ died for us, but what we fail to realize is that the bride of Christ also dies for Him. The rapture will only be for the good and faithful servants, not the good and faithful believers. This is why so many will have to be martyred in the tribulation, because they didn't voluntarily lay their lives down before it was too late. The tribulation will give them the oppurtunity to have a second chance to lay it down and surrender, but sadly, this will also be a time when many will fall away from the faith and believe the lie.
People that think that all they have to do is believe are sadly mistaken. Faith without works is dead. Anyone can talk the talk, but most of these don't walk the walk. There is a huge wake-up call coming for all the lukewarm. The bride will escape all the misery (Luke 21:36 / Rev. 3:10), but the rest will still have to be purified. Christ is wanting us to lay it down and be saved. If you wait until the tribulation, you will not only suffer loss of reward, but you must also give your head. It's also sad to see that many believe that they will go into the tribulation and survive. Half of the worlds population will die, and the ones who live will have to be considered to be sheep when Christ divides the survivors into sheep and goats. But the sad part about that is: that those who do survive and are called His sheep, these will also remain in their mortal fleshly bodies, and these are the ones that will repopulate the earth. What a rip off that would be. I would rather give my head and be able to come back and reign with the rest of the church under Christ.
Originally posted by JesusServant
I agree with pretty much everything you've said here except I don't throw the rapture into the parable of the virgins.
I'll add a thought to the wise virgins parable also. In the old testament the oil can symbolize the Holy Spirit because they didn't have the Holy Spirit in those times.
Note that belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required to be motivated to live holy and work for the Lord because we never know when we're going to die (Luke 12:20). And we know we will be judged by our works (Matthew 25:26, 30; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 2:23; Luke 12:47-48)....A post trib believer can goof off until he see's the sun darkened...
Some say that in order to believe Jesus won't come until after the tribulation one must "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). But if that's when Jesus said he is scheduled to come (Matthew 24:29-31), how is that a delay?..."My master is staying away a long time,"...
Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6)....Jesus will come like a thief in the night...
In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But note that the door is closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus....The five wise virgins were ready first...
Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41)....the scriptures clearly warn us to keep watch...
I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9)....I believe that in fact the restrainer is the Holy Spirit...
Some believe the tribulation may be for some Christians, but not for the bride of Christ. But there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32). We Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost, saved in no different way than Christians who have died or will die before the tribulation. Many of us will be slain for the word of God and cry out to the Lord (Revelation 6:9-10); we will have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14); we will have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17) and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and will be in the Lord (Revelation 14:13); if we die, we will enter into heaven itself (Revelation 15:2); some of us will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and we will all live and reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4)....the bride will escape all that will happen in the tribulation...
I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation:...The bride will escape all the misery (Luke 21:36 / Rev. 3:10)...