Pre Tribulation Rapture and a majority of Christians being mislead

ladylove · Dec 17, 2002

Well,

It has been awhile since I have been here and it is nice to regular "cyberfaces." LOL

I too have heard many views and this is a secondary issue to as to "when" but not is. Jesus will return to rule as rightful ruler one day in the future and our job is to be ready for him as his earthly family.

But having said that, I ran across a view of eschatolgy that I thought was worth of a shift in thinking for me. I think there are many good and valid points to a pre-wrath position of eschatology viewed thru the lens of Scripture. It is the view that the church will indeed endure the great tribulation instigated by Satan. But the church is not appointed to earthly judgment from God and will indeed by resuced prior to the judgment of God begins.

This particular view was held by the early church fathers as I understand it. And until persuaded otherwise in light of Scripture, seems to be the most likely course of events. What do you think?

rollinTHUNDER · Dec 20, 2002

Bump for JesusServant

armothe · Dec 20, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Wow!! It is so sad to see the total lack of faith. So many are already deceived, even before the great "falling away". This forum used to be filled with people of faith, but now, it appears to be mostly scoffers. No doubt it is the Preterists who started this, and I wouyldn't be a bit surprised to findout that all these scoffers are really secret preterists carrying out another evil plan. As you can tell, I don't spend too much time here anymore. There's just too many doubters and humanists. I'm outta here!! This is depressing. I got to move on to higher ground. See ya

Oh, the drama.

-A

JesusServant · Dec 20, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Bump for JesusServant

Romans828 · Dec 20, 2002

I hold a premillennial, pretribulationist view...for many reasons.  However, this topic, in my eyes, is one of those topics that fall in the "be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger" topic.  The way I look at it is this.  No matter which view you take, only God knows what will happen.  Trying to figure out the mind of God is pointless.  God is God and I am not!!!  There are HOT topics that cause dissension and arguments and rising frustration.  So, any topic that is as hot as this where people cannot discuss their views without attacking or being attacked, I tend to stay away from.

Further, as long as one knows about Jesus...let me re-phrase that--- As long as one intimately KNOWS Jesus, than you know that your millennialist view is NOT what gets you into heaven, and therefore, you understand that it is not worth arguing about.  This "tribulation" topic is one of those topics that has always broken my heart because people get so fired up, that they wind of leaving forums...hence the two posts above this.  I implore you all to please consider being a peacemaker while stating your views.

 

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 22, 2002

Originally posted by JesusServant
I know this has been talked about at some point but I'm new...  What has been on my heart lately is a concern for true believers that all this fiction as of late and the temporal blessing lovers (TV evangelists) on TV are preparing Christians wrongly.

Why is this important?  It's not a salvation point right?  Correct, however... imagine that you believe with all your heart in a rapture before the great tribulation and as you see the great tribulation unfold, you're still here.  You have accepted Jesus as your saviour and you live your life in a manner befitting the commandments and examples set forth by Jesus Christ.  But here you are, "left behind".  That is EXACTLY where satan wants us.  To feel "left behind" and to question God's acceptance of us through his Son and His love for us.  This deception is very dangerous.  "Pre-tribbers" say things like, "what, you expect God to put some protective 'bubble' around us and keep us from the harm of the great tribulation?"  And to that I wonder if they've ever read Daniel and the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego when God allowed them to be thrown in the fire but preserved them in it.  Yes, this is symbolic of the "valley of life" or "trials of fire", but it also happened and I believe it. 

EPH writes...

I see you use those fiction books..and their catchy phrase "left behind"....in your post..But those books are fiction...!

JS writes...
Here are scripture pre-tribbers can't explain OR they make up such things as a second rapture or a second (which would actually be a third) return of Christ.  And it gets thicker and thicker as they try to explain it away...

Eph replies...

Well since God has been on earth quite a few times..and Jesus is God...a case could be made that "God" has been here and back a bunch of times..! So Jesus coming back once or twice or 10 times isn't the important thing...Jesus accended to the Father after the Resurrection..but was seen again by the disciples...Then accended again as the disciples watched..So IF you use this as your "standard" for right and wrong..it's pretty weak...at best..!

Plus since your SET in your thinking..and your thinking is exposed to be like it is by that example...I'd say it's a waste of time trying to convince you of your mistakes...!

JS writes..
In my signature is Jesus Himself talking about his return in Matt: 24 so I won't repost it in the post, (((((but this is VERY important to debunk the pre-trib fairy tale that tells the flesh what it wants to hear))))...

Eph writes...

NO...it's very important because your building your case around it...AND only allow for YOUR interpretation of those scriptures to be "correct"...Thats called stackin the deck I think...! First you make claims of "fairy tails" of all other opposing views..then your on yer way...!

JS says...
Also, pre-tribbers say that the Church (body of Christ - not a building) is not mentioned after the letters to the churches by Jesus, after Revelation 3... oh yes it is...  who are the "saints" in the next passage, if not the true believers in Christ Jesus...

Eph chuckles...

I see you aren't aware that NOT ALL Saints are NT Saints...For example JS...would you say Noah is an OT Saint..or a NT Church Saint..?? I would call him at best an OT Saint...maybe even define him better as a PRE Flood Saint..Your confusing OT Saints...with NT Church Saints..AND Revelation Days Saints.....Revelation Days Saints..are preached to by the 2 Witnesses..not by Christian Pastors..

AND I might add the message of those 2 witnesses during Rev Days..is not the Gosple of Jesus Christ that HIS Church IS preaching today...!

JS asks...

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Eph writes...

JS...do you want to be judged on YOUR works like they will be.....or Jesus Christ's work..?? Those who are judged by THEIR own works..will be found wanting..!

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 22, 2002

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
I also do not agree with the concept of a pre-trib - or mid-trib rapture.

Your concerns seem to voice that of many of those who do not agree with the rapture. Personally I do not think it is something that needs to be too cumbersome - and I have no issue with a brother in Christ who chooses to believe in this "fairy tale" (as you put it).

I honestly don't think that those who are truly believers will be deceived - I believe the Holy Spirit will convict the true believer when the right time comes that the rapture was a part of someone's imagination.

I've always contended that if there is a rapture - then great! - I was wrong - but I know in my heart to expect the worst.

Concernging the doctrine - I believe there is some scriptural merit to it - but it is so vague that it is very possible that the rapture can easily be a misinterpretation. That is why I choose not to accept it. I believe that such an event would be explicitly defined in the prophecies and not open for interpretation. Granted - most of Daniel/Revelation is symbolic and hard to pinpoint - but a mass disappearance of believers would be easy to spot - in my opinion

Eph writes...

Sad to say..but that type of "luke warm"...approach isn't good..and here's why...!

See IF you don't "Faith" Jesus Christ and what HE said about all this....you will NOT be going with the CHURCH when they are "called up".....Then you will get your wish and "stay here"...and go through the Great Trib....with the rest of those who ALSO had no FAITH in Jesus Christ or what HE said...!

There is no "safe fence lukewarm middle ground" to sit on ...and wait it out to see how things pan out..!

IF you FAITH that Jesus Christ will leave you here...HE will...!

....So those folks who now FAITH Jesus Christ will let them to go through the Great Trib..will get what they want...and they will go thru the Great Trib...!

Those who FAITH that Jesus Christ..will NOT allow them to face Gods wrath poured out from Heaven on an UN faithing world...Won't go through the Great Trib..just as HE promised they wouldn't..!

YES...It's that simple...!

You will GET what you FAITH from Jesus Christ..not because HE wants it that way...but for your NON Faith in Him now....just like ANY other person who has NON Faith in Christ....Muslims..Buddists..Jews...Hindu's..ect ect...ALL People who don't FAITH what Jesus said..will be going through the Great Trib...!

BEHE says..
I've always contended that if there is a rapture - then great! - I was wrong - but I know in my heart to expect the worst.

Eph writes...

....I'd advise you to "change direction" then...!

JesusServant · Dec 22, 2002

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777

Originally posted by JesusServant
I know this has been talked about at some point but I'm new...  What has been on my heart lately is a concern for true believers that all this fiction as of late and the temporal blessing lovers (TV evangelists) on TV are preparing Christians wrongly.

Why is this important?  It's not a salvation point right?  Correct, however... imagine that you believe with all your heart in a rapture before the great tribulation and as you see the great tribulation unfold, you're still here.  You have accepted Jesus as your saviour and you live your life in a manner befitting the commandments and examples set forth by Jesus Christ.  But here you are, "left behind".  That is EXACTLY where satan wants us.  To feel "left behind" and to question God's acceptance of us through his Son and His love for us.  This deception is very dangerous.  "Pre-tribbers" say things like, "what, you expect God to put some protective 'bubble' around us and keep us from the harm of the great tribulation?"  And to that I wonder if they've ever read Daniel and the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego when God allowed them to be thrown in the fire but preserved them in it.  Yes, this is symbolic of the "valley of life" or "trials of fire", but it also happened and I believe it. 

EPH writes...

I see you use those fiction books..and their catchy phrase "left behind"....in your post..But those books are fiction...!

JS writes...
Here are scripture pre-tribbers can't explain OR they make up such things as a second rapture or a second (which would actually be a third) return of Christ.  And it gets thicker and thicker as they try to explain it away...

Eph replies...

Well since God has been on earth quite a few times..and Jesus is God...a case could be made that "God" has been here and back a bunch of times..! So Jesus coming back once or twice or 10 times isn't the important thing...Jesus accended to the Father after the Resurrection..but was seen again by the disciples...Then accended again as the disciples watched..So IF you use this as your "standard" for right and wrong..it's pretty weak...at best..!

Plus since your SET in your thinking..and your thinking is exposed to be like it is by that example...I'd say it's a waste of time trying to convince you of your mistakes...!

JS writes..
In my signature is Jesus Himself talking about his return in Matt: 24 so I won't repost it in the post, (((((but this is VERY important to debunk the pre-trib fairy tale that tells the flesh what it wants to hear))))...

Eph writes...

NO...it's very important because your building your case around it...AND only allow for YOUR interpretation of those scriptures to be "correct"...Thats called stackin the deck I think...! First you make claims of "fairy tails" of all other opposing views..then your on yer way...!

JS says...
Also, pre-tribbers say that the Church (body of Christ - not a building) is not mentioned after the letters to the churches by Jesus, after Revelation 3... oh yes it is...  who are the "saints" in the next passage, if not the true believers in Christ Jesus...

Eph chuckles...

I see you aren't aware that NOT ALL Saints are NT Saints...For example JS...would you say Noah is an OT Saint..or a NT Church Saint..?? I would call him at best an OT Saint...maybe even define him better as a PRE Flood Saint..Your confusing OT Saints...with NT Church Saints..AND Revelation Days Saints.....Revelation Days Saints..are preached to by the 2 Witnesses..not by Christian Pastors..

AND I might add the message of those 2 witnesses during Rev Days..is not the Gosple of Jesus Christ that HIS Church IS preaching today...!

JS asks...

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Eph writes...

JS...do you want to be judged on YOUR works like they will be.....or Jesus Christ's work..?? Those who are judged by THEIR own works..will be found wanting..!

Click to expand...

Thanks for setting me straight ephraim, but I fail to see where this adds or subracts to the thread's discussion.

JesusServant · Dec 22, 2002

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777

Sad to say..but that type of "luke warm"...approach isn't good..and here's why...!

See IF you don't "Faith" Jesus Christ and what HE said about all this....you will NOT be going with the CHURCH when they are "called up".....Then you will get your wish and "stay here"...and go through the Great Trib....with the rest of those who ALSO had no FAITH in Jesus Christ or what HE said...!

There is no "safe fence lukewarm middle ground" to sit on ...and wait it out to see how things pan out..!

IF you FAITH that Jesus Christ will leave you here...HE will...!

....So those folks who now FAITH Jesus Christ will let them to go through the Great Trib..will get what they want...and they will go thru the Great Trib...!

Those who FAITH that Jesus Christ..will NOT allow them to face Gods wrath poured out from Heaven on an UN faithing world...Won't go through the Great Trib..just as HE promised they wouldn't..!

YES...It's that simple...!

You will GET what you FAITH from Jesus Christ..not because HE wants it that way...but for your NON Faith in Him now....just like ANY other person who has NON Faith in Christ....Muslims..Buddists..Jews...Hindu's..ect ect...ALL People who don't FAITH what Jesus said..will be going through the Great Trib...!

BEHE says..
I've always contended that if there is a rapture - then great! - I was wrong - but I know in my heart to expect the worst.

Eph writes...

....I'd advise you to "change direction" then...!

Click to expand...

Who are you to say what Christ will do when he returns as far as who He leaves and who He takes?  I don't think we will get our "wishes" because wishes aren't for those who believe in Christ.  If you mean, however, you will get what you pray for, then you assume to know what we pray for which is really silly to add to a debate.  I know you don't understand that we are merely arguing when Jesus will return in accordance with the great tribulation not if He will.  You may actually add some good points of view to the thread except you're on the attack and that pretty much gets ignored by most people.   

rollinTHUNDER · Dec 25, 2002

Hello JesusServant,
You seem to think you have plenty of time. So much so, that you can even wait for the sign of His coming in the end of the 7 yr tribulation. I just thought I would give you one scripture to munch on for a while.

Matt. 24: 48-50 - "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, "My master is staying away a long time," (49)and he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. (50)The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of."

It appears to me, that you post-tribbers are setting a very dangerous trap for yourselves, thinking that you have plenty of time. Satan doesn't even have to mess with you that much, because he is snickering while he watches you bate your own trap. Watch out my friend!! Jesus will come like a thief in the night. I have never heard of a thief that gives you signs of him coming. Be careful of what you ask for, because you just might get it.

The five wise virgins were ready first, and they were rewarded, but the five foolish ones thought they had plenty of time like you, but they were denied entrance as the door was shut. Doesn't this sound like the post-trib beliefs?? It sure does to me!!

JesusServant · Dec 26, 2002

RollinTHUNDER, we could have 1 minute or 1000 years, only the Father in heaven knows the time.  No one is setting dates or distance just merely order of events according to scripture.

Don't worry, I'm not beating my servants or a drunkard

rollinTHUNDER · Dec 26, 2002

Originally posted by JesusServant
RollinTHUNDER, we could have 1 minute or 1000 years, only the Father in heaven knows the time.  

Don't worry, I'm not beating my servants or a drunkard

It doesn't matter how much time is left.  You are gambling either way.  Yeah, you probably won't beat any servants, because you probably have none. But that verse doesn't mean it exactly the way it sounds.  That verse means to think you have plenty of time and then to start acting worldly.  Then your Master shows up and leaves you with the hypocrites. 

I think you post-trib believers confuse the word being "caught up" with being "gathered". Matt. 24:31 - "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."  This is the second coming, not the rapture. 

In the rapture: 
1 Thes. 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17)After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Notice that in Mathew, the angels "gather" the elect, but in 1 Thes. Christ comes down Himself, and they are "caught up"? These are two different events without a doubt.  The stakes are too high to be gambling your eternal rewards.  Just thought I would give you guys a heads up here.  Cheers!!     

JesusServant · Dec 26, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
It doesn't matter how much time is left.  You are gambling either way.  Yeah, you probably won't beat any servants, because you probably have none. But that verse doesn't mean it exactly the way it sounds.  That verse means to think you have plenty of time and then to start acting worldly.  Then your Master shows up and leaves you with the hypocrites. 

I hope you really don't think I'm dumb enough to think this can only be taken exactly how it is written and that I'm okay if I don't beat servants, NOTICE THE WINKING EYE.  Please don't belittle me by explaining the simplest of scripture to me as if I were a child.  Even though I'm the dumbest and most ignorant Christian in the world, I still have a little common sense.

I think you post-trib believers confuse the word being "caught up" with being "gathered". Matt. 24:31 - "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."  This is the second coming, not the rapture. 

In the rapture: 
1 Thes. 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17)After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Notice that in Mathew, the angels "gather" the elect, but in 1 Thes. Christ comes down Himself, and they are "caught up"? These are two different events without a doubt.  The stakes are too high to be gambling your eternal rewards.  Just thought I would give you guys a heads up here.  Cheers!!     

I don't worry about rewards, that's not up to me to decide.  My most important goal is to make the cut.  If God sees fit to add anything else to this gift then great, that's another bonus I don't deserve. 

 (Matthew 6:33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

rollinTHUNDER · Dec 26, 2002

Originally posted by JesusServant
I hope you really don't think I'm dumb enough to think this can only be taken exactly how it is written and that I'm okay if I don't beat servants, NOTICE THE WINKING EYE.  Please don't belittle me by explaining the simplest of scripture to me as if I were a child.  Even though I'm the dumbest and most ignorant Christian in the world, I still have a little common sense.

YIKES!!  I was only trying to help you my friend, but I see now that, that may not be such a good idea.  Sorry for bothering you.  I will now leave you in peace.  No hard feelings!!

JesusServant · Dec 26, 2002

My bad RT, re-reading that, I did come off harsh... I hope you can forgive me somehow...

rollinTHUNDER · Dec 26, 2002

Originally posted by JesusServant
My bad RT, re-reading that, I did come off harsh... I hope you can forgive me somehow...

No problem Bro, consider it done!!

JesusServant · Dec 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
No problem Bro, consider it done!!

Thanks brother :hug:

postrib · Dec 29, 2002

..."My master is staying away a long time,"...

Some say that in order to believe Jesus won't come until after the tribulation one must "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). But if that's when Jesus said he is scheduled to come (Matthew 24:29-31), how is that a delay?

But what if we believed pre-trib and it doesn't happen; then we could fall into the "My lord delayeth his coming" mindset Jesus warned against (Matthew 24:48-51).

...Jesus will come like a thief in the night...

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).  

...The five wise virgins were ready first...

In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But note that the door is closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

...think you have plenty of time...

Note that belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required to be motivated to keep working for the Lord because we never know when we're going to die (Luke 12:20). And we know we will be judged by our works (Matthew 25:26, 30; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 2:23; Luke 12:47-48).  

...confuse the word being "caught up" with being "gathered"...

I believe gathering together means rapture in the context of Jesus' coming:

"The coming of our Lord...
and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming...
and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming,
or a 2nd rapture of the church.

I believe the "gathering together" in Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is our being "caught up together" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

...in Mathew, the angels "gather" the elect, but in 1 Thes. Christ comes down Himself...

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn't say that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

rollinTHUNDER · Dec 29, 2002

Originally posted by postrib
Some say that in order to believe Jesus won't come until after the tribulation one must "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). But if that's when Jesus said he is scheduled to come (Matthew 24:29-31), how is that a delay?

postrib,
I'm not going to debate pre and post trib with you, but Jesus was very clear when He said that He didn't know, nor the angels, but only His Father knew the time.  You post tribbers try to combine the words "gathered" and "caught up", and I believe you are gambling on your belief. But God is not bound by what we believe.

The five foolish virgins thought they had time too, but the wise were already prepared.  We all know how that story ended.  Cheers!! 

 

JesusServant · Dec 30, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
postrib,
I'm not going to debate pre and post trib with you, but Jesus was very clear when He said that He didn't know, nor the angels, but only His Father knew the time.  You post tribbers try to combine the words "gathered" and "caught up", and I believe you are gambling on your belief. But God is not bound by what we believe.

The five foolish virgins thought they had time too, but the wise were already prepared.  We all know how that story ended.  Cheers!! 

 

No thunder, He said He didn't know the TIME not whether it was before or after the great tribulation, see my sig

Pre Tribulation Rapture and a majority of Christians being mislead

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