Why can't we in America talk seriously about Socialism?

canehdianhotstuff

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Municipalities are actually local cities government. Mayor and councilors.

You're saying it like it is something astronomically impossible to overcome, yet you spend more money on your system per capita than we do. With proper use of the money being put into already it is feasible.

The difference in money is the taxing system. That is how we do it. Ya, more money out of our pockets, but minimum wage is higher than yours. We sit at $10 an hour. Everything is proportional in comparison.

And right now our dollar is equal to yours. Our economy seems to be rebounding quite well. (not that, that has anything to do with this.)

You can afford to make the switch and it can be made work. You need more money, just borrow it from China like you you've been doing all along for the war. (just in case you wondered who you are in debt to.)
 
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127.0.0.1

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You can afford to make the switch and it can be made work. You need more money, just borrow it from China like you you've been doing all along for the war. (just in case you wondered who you are in debt to.)


Oh no, you forgot. It's our "socialist" policies and this "socialist" "war on terror" that got us in debt with China in the first place. ;)
(only kidding dang it! Lighten up! :) :p)
I keep checking back on this thread every few hours or so. I'm actually amazed that it hasn't de-evolved into Red vs Blue :) ...yet. ;)
 
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JonMiller

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Socialism is a dirty word in America, which allows corporatism to be practiced instead (it isn't socialism!). Obviously I prefer welfare to corporate welfare.

But since this thread is about health care (and our health care is terrible, the way it is set up to put money into corporate pockets means that we spend more for less than any other country, even if you have good insurance), I will put this out there:
Ezra Klein - Congressional Budget Office Thrashes Republican Health-Care Plan

Interesting point about costs in the US:
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
What we are doing right now isn't sustainable, and it isn't capitalism btw.

In the US the main thing is corporatism. Then there is a little bit of socialism or capitalism, depending on what the issue/party is.

JM
 
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Spicy McHaggis

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Capitalism is by far one of the worst systems ever made.

Because of all the innovation and progress that comes out of socialism?

I don't think capitalism is perfect, but the problem is more with the gene pool than the system. Overall it benefits the greater good but as with any system it's open to exploitation.

Competition still brings out the best. That's how we put a man on the moon and brought him back safely while some countries either don't have a space program, or simply piggy-back ours.
 
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Luther073082

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No, you get to wait an hour before the use it on you. I speak from experience.

And I addressed by saying a couple times the wait times only exist because we are under staffed.

The only reason any of you are arguing for your nice quality healthcare is becaus eyou have money to pay for it. Go down to making 20k a year and then see where you stand.

I make less then 20k a year and I have no health insurance.

And with ear infections, I don't know what kind of doctor you are seeing, but my doc with no health insurance costs $90, not $200. And I highly doubt the prescription costs that much money.

On top of that there are low cost health clinics that are even cheaper if you wanted to use one of those.

Socialism is a dirty word in America, which allows corporatism to be practiced instead (it isn't socialism!). Obviously I prefer welfare to corporate welfare.

Most true conservatives are also against corporate welfare. If a company is failing and can't make it on its own then let it fail.

Welfare I don't like because of how its administered. My cousin lived for quite a while in a nice apartment without ever going to work. The government gave her rent assisted housing, food stamps, and welfare checks for doing nothing. Why would she want to go to work? As soon as you go to work they help you a heck of a lot less. I don't make a lot of money and I couldn't get that help, but thats because I get up in the morning and go to work.

As a followup, I realize I didn't provide any hard data like Im_A was asking for. I don't think there's any point in trying to go into the details because the problem is too big. If it isn't self-evident that the United States has enough money to guarantee its citizens life-saving healthcare, there's nothing to discuss anyway. To me, that's a stone cold fact and everything else is just logistics. We CAN do it. Let the geniuses figure out how and propose their plans to us.

Have you seen our national debt? Have you seen the amount of money we just spend in interest on that national debt??

Do you realize the US federal government couldn't buy you a pack of bubble gum without taking out debt for it?

Our federal government is flat broke. It does not have the money. We're getting taxed up one side and down the other. Sales Tax, State Income taxes, FICA, Federal Income taxes etc etc. All to see our governments on all 3 levels not only spend all of our tax money but over spend it and take out debt. Then they ask us to pay the interest on that debt that they keep growing.

With all the ways our federal government finds to blow money and do everything inefficently, I would much much rather spend my money on my own. Because in all honesty, I think I'm smarter then the federal government.

And thats the big secret with Canada's health care system. It isn't free, you pay for it with your taxes. So calling Canada's healthcare free is laughable.
 
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Luther073082

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Apparently you missed the memo about 10 times in the thread that, at least of which 2 of them, stated that tax dollars pay our system.

Well then don't call it "free" healthcare because that's misleading.

No matter if the government makes you pay for it or you pay for it yourself. You are still paying for it. *Or someone else is paying for you*
 
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IDDQD

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Umm ok. It's the gene pool that runs the system, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

I think his point is the typical 'HURR AMURRICANZ R TEH SUK TEH REZT UV TEH WURLD IZ AWSUM ND PURFIKT WIF NO PROBLIMZ' mentality that seems to be popular these days. You're not cool on the Internet unless your bashing America and ignoring the problems within your own country.
 
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Spicy McHaggis

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I think his point is the typical 'HURR AMURRICANZ R TEH SUK TEH REZT UV TEH WURLD IZ AWSUM ND PURFIKT WIF NO PROBLIMZ' mentality that seems to be popular these days. You're not cool on the Internet unless your bashing America and ignoring the problems within your own country.

I don't think Shawn's blindly bashing America, I mean, the dude is a bit outnumbered in a thread about Socialism that's turned to the health care debate (sorry if that's my fault) and those always tend to get the point/counter-point thing going but he hasn't stopped talking seriously about Socialism.
 
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canehdianhotstuff

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I don't think Shawn's blindly bashing America, I mean, the dude is a bit outnumbered in a thread about Socialism that's turned to the health care debate (sorry if that's my fault) and those always tend to get the point/counter-point thing going but he hasn't stopped talking seriously about Socialism.

Thank you.

And no I was not ignoring my country's own problems, I did address some of those to if I could. I wasnt attempting to bash anything America, but since everyone was so quick to point out major flaws in ours, I was going to answer back with some major flaws in yours.
 
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welshman

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No political view is without its flaws, be that "socialism" or "capitalism". That's due to man. I am not advocating socialism, neither am I going to make a dogmatic statement about the state of the US healthcare system as I didn't spend long enough in the USA to form a solid opinion.

Over here we have the NHS. People say it's free when it isn't. I pay a huge amount of tax for this, so that some layabout, cigarette smoking, beer swilling average Joe can take the money I earnt and waste it through medical treatments because he makes himself ill through his own selfish lifestyle. It really, realllllllly rubs me up the wrong way.

In saying that, I think all countries have flaws in their political system. We do over here, especially now in Wales with our own parliament. What a waste of tax money the Assembly is! Better stop now before I get started hehe...
 
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ido

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Thank you.

And no I was not ignoring my country's own problems, I did address some of those to if I could. I wasnt attempting to bash anything America, but since everyone was so quick to point out major flaws in ours, I was going to answer back with some major flaws in yours.

Re: the bolded part. Going back through the thread - the post you made that I quoted below is what sparked the debate between which country has the better healthcare system. If you don't want flaws pointed out, then don't bait us with "superiority" comments. And pointing out major flaws in return? I guess I wasn't taught that two wrongs make a right. *shrugs*

Canada has a better healthcare system, so says the World Health Organization.
 
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canehdianhotstuff

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Re: the bolded part. Going back through the thread - the post you made that I quoted below is what sparked the debate between which country has the better healthcare system. If you don't want flaws pointed out, then don't bait us with "superiority" comments. And pointing out major flaws in return? I guess I wasn't taught that two wrongs make a right. *shrugs*

I still the system is superior.
 
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ido

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I still the system is superior.

You're completely entitled to your opinion, too. I just think you should be prepared to defend such a statement without getting offended and huffy about it when people point out the flaws in that system, as well. :wave:
 
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Im_A

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Thank you.

And no I was not ignoring my country's own problems, I did address some of those to if I could. I wasnt attempting to bash anything America, but since everyone was so quick to point out major flaws in ours, I was going to answer back with some major flaws in yours.
The thing is, all you are doing is saying the same thing that we already know about our current system. You haven't offered a fix. You support alienating the former system for something you personally see as different. Whatever happened to fixing the current system?


Municipalities are actually local cities government. Mayor and councilors.
Thanks for explaining that part. I didn't want to misunderstand you.
You're saying it like it is something astronomically impossible to overcome, yet you spend more money on your system per capita than we do. With proper use of the money being put into already it is feasible.

The difference in money is the taxing system. That is how we do it. Ya, more money out of our pockets, but minimum wage is higher than yours. We sit at $10 an hour. Everything is proportional in comparison.
I don't always agree with raging the minimum wage per hour because that's a burden for the private business to reach for its employees and cuts back people getting jobs. So I don't see how you paying taxes and increasing the federal wage is going to be proportional in comparison whatsoever.
And right now our dollar is equal to yours. Our economy seems to be rebounding quite well. (not that, that has anything to do with this.)
So why add to it? Good job...your countries dollar is equal to our struggling economy.
You can afford to make the switch and it can be made work. You need more money, just borrow it from China like you you've been doing all along for the war. (just in case you wondered who you are in debt to.)
You asking us to continue the worsening debt. I disagree with us borrowing from China like we have already done. The more we borrow, the less we'll get ahead, and the less actually NEW capital will be made.

If this is the best you can offer as to how to and the ideas to discuss, than it is utterly worthless talking to someone who believes that INCREASING our debt is a worthwhile person to discuss how to REALISTICALLY change to a health care system like yours.

Nice talking to you shawn!
 
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canehdianhotstuff

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Raising minimum wage seldom results in cutbacks and lose of jobs ever.

I was mostly be sarcastic about borrowing from China. Im pretty positive a switch to a socialist health care system would result in saving money by the government. Of course state government would have to be more involved than Federal.

I would also like to comment back to whoever brought up the use of the machines like the CT scanner and how Canada needs new ones, which we already have, but simply lack enough of them.

In Canada the instruments are run 24/7. I am not kidding, I went with my friend for an MRI at 4am, that had be scheduled 2 months in advance. ( yeah, yeah make fun of the wait time, it wasnt a pressing MRI)

I would wager to bet that a US instrument isnt even run half the time because people can't afford to get them. It's like putting the MRI machine in the window and teasing some poor guy with it....er have to go. I will continue that idea later.
 
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ido

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In Canada the instruments are run 24/7. I am not kidding, I went with my friend for an MRI at 4am, that had be scheduled 2 months in advance. ( yeah, yeah make fun of the wait time, it wasnt a pressing MRI)

I would wager to bet that a US instrument isnt even run half the time because people can't afford to get them. It's like putting the MRI machine in the window and teasing some poor guy with it....er have to go. I will continue that idea later.

So, how does this comparison make the Canadian system better? :scratch:

It's kind of dangerous ground to tread on to make a "wager" about something without being able to back it up. It would seem to me that not being able to afford a scan isn't any worse than having to wait 2 months and then go in at 4AM to have the scan done.
 
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canehdianhotstuff

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So, how does this comparison make the Canadian system better? :scratch:

It's kind of dangerous ground to tread on to make a "wager" about something without being able to back it up. It would seem to me that not being able to afford a scan isn't any worse than having to wait 2 months and then go in at 4AM to have the scan done.

I beg to differ. Anyone who needs a scan immediately gets one. It's called priority.

Versus not getting a scan at all and going untreated totally until it's too late.

Are you kidding me now? That's even ground. Right.
 
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ido

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I beg to differ. Anyone who needs a scan immediately gets one. It's called priority.

Versus not getting a scan at all and going untreated totally until it's too late.

Are you kidding me now? That's even ground. Right.

No need to be snarky. If you want me to take you seriously, then speak respectfully, k?

Anyone who needs a scan here in the US immediately gets one, too. Emergency services cannot be denied to anyone - with or without insurance.

And, I've never heard of anyone having to wait 2 months for a scan or having to go in at 4 AM to have it done.

No insurance? They will set up a payment plan and do offer cash discounts. It might not be ideal, but I don't think it's any worse or better than what you describe.
 
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