Why can't we in America talk seriously about Socialism?

I am also not for subsidizing some idiot with a three pack a day habit who's never paid into the system.

GQ Chris said:

I am also not for subsidizing some idiot with a three pack a day habit who's never paid into the system.

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In what way would you be subsidizing him?

shawn101 said:

In what way would you be subsidizing him?

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I don't think we're directly paying for the smokes, but I too don't like the notion of paying into a system that pays out to someone who's being irresponsible(s0).

Spicy McHaggis said:

I don't think we're directly paying for the smokes, but I too don't like the notion of paying into a system that pays out to someone who's being irresponsible(s0).

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I disagree considering the government pays billions into subsidizing tobacco industry crops to be grown.

On the other hand just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are irresponsible, plenty of non-smoking irresponsible people. In a time of such economical depression subsidized everything becomes peoples best friends.

Now I can say I dont drive nor even own a vehicle. I dont even use public transportation currently, so why should I pay into a system to maintain roads when I dont use them. I also dont have kids, so why should I pay into a system to subsidize education cost for schools.

The clear answer is it benefits the greater good of people. Some people may abuse it, but on the overall it is a good thing.

Shawn - the problem here in America, at least, is that more people abuse the system than use it correctly.

flnativegrl said:

Shawn - the problem here in America, at least, is that more people abuse the system than use it correctly.

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Well that is a problem with the gene pool, not the system. I'll still go to wager that more people benefit for the good, than abuse.

Umm ok. It's the gene pool that runs the system, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

I love how people here in the U.S. criticize our health care system while we have people float over on rafts from Cuba, sneak across the border from Mexico, and commute from Canada for surgery and medical care. We're so spoiled by it that we don't realize how good we truly have it.

shawn101 said:

Well that is a problem with the gene pool, not the system. I'll still go to wager that more people benefit for the good, than abuse.

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I'm with flnativegrl on this. What is the point to this or in all actuality...what do you mean by "the gene pool"?

Everything must be the gene pool and the environment's fault, and also the person's background, but there isn't anything wrong with the individual, lol.

Thunder Peel said:

I love how people here in the U.S. criticize our health care system while we have people float over on rafts from Cuba, sneak across the border from Mexico, and commute from Canada for surgery and medical care. We're so spoiled by it that we don't realize how good we truly have it.

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Socialism goes above and beyond health care. We're talking about socialism as a whole. And, just because we have it "better" than Cuba or Mexico (not so sure about Canada) doesn't mean that what we have is good or sufficient and couldn't stand some reform.

The system doesn't work b/c it's broken. How does it make us spoiled b/c we want to fix the system?

Well that is a problem with the gene pool, not the system.

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This is one of the fatal flaws in Socialism and many other systems. It relies on human nature being something it's not. It's pie in the sky Utopian ideal, and not a very good one in my opinion. I look to Anarcho-Capitalism for my Utopia.

We're so spoiled by it that we don't realize how good we truly have it.

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Agreed, but that doesn't mean our healthcare system doesn't have problems. I think we need to break the stranglehold of insurance on medicine, not increase it.

Anyway, the problem for me isn't so much Socialism as it is Collectivism, where the rights of the individual are lost.

Thunder Peel said:

I love how people here in the U.S. criticize our health care system while we have people float over on rafts from Cuba, sneak across the border from Mexico, and commute from Canada for surgery and medical care. We're so spoiled by it that we don't realize how good we truly have it.

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Well one can be fair though. When we have states to where insurance companies have monopolized the state in regards to health insurance...that's a problem. Increasing rates is another problem. I mean even paying for insurance through your employer can be expensive let alone paying extremely high rates for services etc. We know the current system isn't perfect and needs some fixing.

I'd rather keep it the way I have known it since I was a kid, the way it has flourished for how many years? and fix the problems that people have suffered for years instead of changing the whole system when we have a president who isn't telling us how things are actually going to get paid, who can't prove that government will not overrun it except with a some spectacular speech saying he won't. Since no one in the government including the president has given a case to do incredible and outright irresponsible spending out of an idealistic principal I will never want our system to change.

(Sorry Thunder Peel...I'm not really trying to argue with you or anything. Just getting in my rhetorical rants again is all )

Im_A said:

(Sorry Thunder Peel...I'm not really trying to argue with you or anything. Just getting in my rhetorical rants again is all )

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LOL, i think I might have < 20 posts on here if you filtered out the rhetoric

Canada has a better healthcare system, so says the World Health Organization.

I'm not trying to say our system is perfect or can't be improved. I'm merely saying that, compared to much of the world, we have it pretty good and our system, despite its flaws, works and has worked for quite a while. I don't want the government or anyone else telling me how I have to live and trying to take care of me; I'm more than capable of doing that on my own.

I know a lot of people here are really coming down on my for saying that but I'm just thankful for what we do have, because it could be much worse.

GQ Chris said:

Everything must be the gene pool and the environment's fault, and also the person's background, but there isn't anything wrong with the individual, lol.

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I am saying that you can not blame the system, the system is fine. Itès the retarded idiots, and greedy politicians that are the problem. Hence the gene pool.

I support the greater benefit to people despite the fact that obviously people abuse the system in place. No matter what, people will always abuse the system, it is just something you need to deal with quickly and move on.

shawn101 said:

Canada has a better healthcare system, so says the World Health Organization.

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You know what I don't buy into anything the WHO or the UN has to say unless its obvious.

The reason is with things like how good a health care system is, that can't be determined analytically without writing up a formula to do it. There are no obvious formula's for it, so in order to rate these things these international organizations simpily make up their own formulas.

Organizations like this are filled with people who are not only leftist but also anti-american. So there is no way in the world that the formula is going to allow the US to be above any of the westernized socialist republics.

These formulas also leave out cultural factors as well.

For example the US may have a lower average lifespan then other westernized nations. But consider also this.

In the US, we culturally are less concerned with our health then most other nations. We have lots more overweight people then most of those nations. That would reduce our average lifespan by itself because the average life choices of your average American are not as good as those of other nations. It has nothing to do with the doctors, hospitals or how our system is administered.

Also in the US we rely upon our cars more then other westernized nations and less on public transportation. Traveling by car on the average is far more dangerous then traveling by public transportation. That would of course lead to more car accidents, leading to a lower average lifespan.

Again that has everything to do with how we live our lives and nothing to do with our actual health care system.

shawn101 said:

I am saying that you can not blame the system, the system is fine. Itès the retarded idiots, and greedy politicians that are the problem. Hence the gene pool.

I support the greater benefit to people despite the fact that obviously people abuse the system in place. No matter what, people will always abuse the system, it is just something you need to deal with quickly and move on.

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You bring up some valid points, and yet I am one of the ones that can't get "past it". I am all for healthcare reform, just not what Obama is proposing.

I'm all for letting health insurance companies compete accross state lines and making losers pay attorney fees and court costs in tort cases.

I've heard that 90&#37; of malpractice cases against doctors are dismissed. The problem is that every time someone comes up with a case, the doctor's malpractice insurance company has to pay its lawyers to go in there and defend him. So even if the case is completly without merit and dismissed, it can still cost the insurance company thousands of dollars to defend him from baseless attacks.