Is the OT Law still in effect?

RibI said:

Quote: Son of Iarael post #633: "Yep, you'll have to blame Jesus for abolishing that old Law."

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15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace.

Another...

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


Another...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I have more from Galatians,if you would like.

Jesus said don't even think He came to do away with the Law, but rather to give us more understanding about the Law and what He expects of us. Mat. 5:17 So what's the first thing people think and say; Jesus did away with the Law. How crazy is that?

In verse 18 Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before the smallest point of the Law or the Prophets will pass away.

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"I have not come to abolish the law"

When he said that,the wordage of law and the prophets meant,the OT,that is how they referred to it in their day...

Notice here,Jesus called the psalms,the law too..

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Here too..

John 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’

Paul also referred to the “law” while he quoted of Isaiah…

1 Corinthinas 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”

So,Jesus was saying,I am not getting rid of the OT,as a whole.


Luke 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Notice also..it says UNTIL…well..John came..did he not?

Matthew 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Also,sure,the law will always be there as a measuring rod for the world..

But scripture says,,the law is not for the righteouss..

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

In verses 21-22 Jesus gives us the true intent of the command not to murder and makes it more binding.

In verses 27-28 Jesus gives us the true intent of the command not to committ adultry and makes it more binding also.
In Mat. 9:17 Jesus says if you want eternal life KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
Jesus condemed the religous leaders of His day for their pervertion of God's Law, not God's Law.

Jesus used terms like "tradition of the elders, doctrines or commandments of men, your traditions or traditions of men. These things were what was and still is called the oral law.

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He also spoke of the written law.No one could keep it,that is why it is referred to as a yoke of bondage,by Paul and Peter.

John 7:19
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"

Jesus spoke offten against these "laws" but He always upheld the written Law of God with term like "it is written or have you not read."

The problem people have today is the same they had back then, they can't understand and can't separate men's pervertion of God's Law and the real thing. That and they can't decern the real intent of God's wonderfull Law that He gave us for our own good, to make us happy and to make life easier.

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Show me where Paul taught that living under the law of Moses,makes for a "happy life".

In fact,if you live under law,you will have agitation of your soul.

Romans 4:15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
What wrath means in the greek,notice the effects on the soul.
orge 3709
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent
emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

And that's just one small point.

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See?..........You made my case better than I did.
Cool.

VictorC said:

Speaking of mumbo jumbo, I have a real problem with the mumbo jumbo that you enjoy posting. No citations. No appeal to Scripture. Just personal opinion, that is written in deference to the narrative of the Pauline epistles explaining that we have been delivered from the law identified by a quote from the ten commandments (Romans 7:6-7, for that point). Moreover, you don't accept the definition the law provides for the ten commandments, showing them to be the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, taken away by God's own Hand when He established the new covenant in His Blood (Hebrews 10:9 for that point).

It isn't as if someone hasn't pointed this out to you before, and yet when someone does you abandon one thread and repeat the same mumbo jumbo on another thread. It's sheer luck I saw your post here, as I haven't looked at this thread before.

Mankind hasn't "changed" the sabbath ordinance to Sunday, regardless of the theological errors of Roman Catholicism and the Westminster Confession rendering their opinions in contrast to Scripture. Mankind isn't able to "change" something that the Hand of God has abolished before there was ever a pope in existence (Ellen White's "Sunday law" theory just vanished). Quit writing mumbo jumbo, and respond to some of the posts that you have orphaned. I have two that I put effort into, and it certainly isn't worth an effort to write yet more rebuttal to your posts if you aren't going to acknowledge the posts that have already been written.

This one addresses your opinion that the ten commandments are somehow different from the book of the law, which is where you're reading the ten commandments from --> please answer the posts you read, just to prove that you read them

This one addresses 1844 --> if everyone's a sinner, when will you ever be "safe to save"?

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I shouldn't have to cite the texts, you know your Bible look them up, they are there. Like I said, I have done the research and you can verify what I have said it is recorded in history by Catholic and Protestant scholars. Common sense would tell you that when Jesus writes something in stone with his own finger that he making a statement of immutability, basically saying something that is not to be changed unless the finger of God changes it. And since Jesus has not re-written a new version of the 10 Commandments with his own finger, I will stick with the original not the "new version" that is being presented by compromised evangelicals nowadays. This new theology that modern evangelicals are presenting, of which so many members of CF have bought into, has been developed to respond to the issue of the Sabbath. Most churches will say that they honor and keep the commandments of God, and then do an about face when it comes to the Sabbath commandment, and say that it has been done away or changed!! Who do they think that they are fooling?! Not God, and not anyone who can read their Bible.

BrightCandle said:

I shouldn't have to cite the texts, you know your Bible look them up, they are there. Like I said, I have done the research and you can verify what I have said it is recorded in history by Catholic and Protestant scholars. Common sense would tell you that when Jesus writes something in stone with his own finger that he making a statement of immutability, basically saying something that is not to be changed unless the finger of God changes it. And since Jesus has not re-written a new version of the 10 Commandments with his own finger, I will stick with the original not the "new version" that is being presented by compromised evangelicals nowadays. This new theology that modern evangelicals are presenting, of which so many members of CF have bought into, has been developed to respond to the issue of the Sabbath. Most churches will say that they honor and keep the commandments of God, and then do an about face when it comes to the Sabbath commandment, and say that it has been done away or changed!! Who do they think that they are fooling?! Not God, and not anyone who can read their Bible.

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I have just a few points to offer, since it appears (so far) that you don't intend to respond to either of the two posts that I linked in my post directed to you.

• You do have to cite or quote the texts from Scripture. Even though I know my Bible's contents sufficiently to recognize some of the ideas you present, I don't think you're aware of the Biblical texts yourself, and part of the learning experience here is gained by supporting your points with Scripture. The exercise may show you that Scripture doesn't say what you think it does.
• Since it was the Hand of God that took away the covenant engraved on tables of stone that were written by the Finger of God, the appeal to common sense would demonstrate that the ten commandments have already lost their jurisdiction over God's redeemed children.
• The texts explaining that the ten commandments were the first covenant mediated by Moses, spoken by and then removed by God when He estabished the new covenant, are not from modern Evangelicals. This is explained by Scripture, which was penned long before there was a Catholic or Protestant theologian in existence.
• The claim that someone is keeping 9 out of 10 commandments of the first covenant is itself a new idea that was spawned sometime around 1649 with the Westminster Confession (the roots of its thought go back much earlier, but long after the close of canon). Paul explained that we were delivered from the law containing the commandment "You shall not covet", which is in the ten commandments. The church doesn't abide by the first covenant, and we don't claim to keep 90% of it, knowing full well that God has concluded all to be disobedient to that covenant. "All" includes you as well.
• The New Testament church is urged to abide by the commandments of God that we have received - which contains nothing about the sabbath ordinance. We don't keep a sabbath once a day in the week, because when it was taken away God granted us entrance into His rest that is permanent. The church is not called to leave God's rest to return to the temporal rest that pointed to His rest - we are actually commanded to throw out the old covenant's decrees according to Galatians 4:30.

Is it too much to ask of you to defend the ideas your "prophet" installed into your noggin with Scripture as your guide?
Judging from the reponses others have written, I don't think it is.

You people need to listen to the word of the Lord as Frogster is delievering it to you. Why do you rebel so much against the simple truth and freedom in the Law of Christ? It is called the "NEW" TESTAMENT FOR A REASON... What profit do you have in attempting to push your "old" law? You can't do it. You will die under it.
Would God think to marry His old Harlot wife under the Old Lawful marriage covenant again?? Isn't He pleased with His New Lawfully wedded Wife in Christ?
I have never seen such silliness...

Son of Israel said:

You people need to listen to the word of the Lord as Frogster is delievering it to you. Why do you rebel so much against the simple truth and freedom in the Law of Christ? It is called the "NEW" TESTAMENT FOR A REASON... What profit do you have in attempting to push your "old" law? You can't do it. You will die under it.
Would God think to marry His old Harlot wife under the Old Lawful marriage covenant again?? Isn't He pleased with His New Lawfully wedded Wife in Christ?
I have never seen such silliness...

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Yes,it shoukd be received as good news..

Why be subject to a yoke of bondage!?

Frogster said:

1) Yes,it shoukd be received as good news..

2) Why be subject to a yoke of bondage!?

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1) You should take a break you're getting tired.

2) God says just the oppsite. 1 Jo.5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.....Talk about

RibI said:

1) You should take a break you're getting tired.

2) God says just the oppsite. 1 Jo.5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.....Talk about

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Exactly..hist wo commands are not a burden,but as Peter and Paul said,the law was a burden,a yoke of slavery..


Acts 15;10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


Even James implied differently..
James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Jesus...
Mark 12:30-31 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”


Paul..
Galtians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”



Just a friendly reminder..the law was a burden..

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

RibI said:

1) You should take a break you're getting tired.

2) God says just the oppsite. 1 Jo.5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.....Talk about

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Please quote the commandments of God that this same epistle documented.

VictorC said:

Please quote the commandments of God that this same epistle documented.

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Are you learning anything here RibI?

Men of God with wisdom are choosing to share their time with you.
So please consider the Word of God they share with you...

What are those commandments that we keep in the New Covenant? Do you actually think John is telling you to keep the commandments of the O.T. law of Moses? If you think that, then prove it. But you might want to actually read it first...

(1Jo 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

(1Jo 3:22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

(1Jo 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

(1Jo 3:24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

These are the commandments RibI.

Believe in them, keep THEM, and be Blessed in His NEW Law-ful Marriage Covenant.

Son of Israel

Son of Israel said:

Are you learning anything here RibI?

Men of God with wisdom are choosing to share their time with you.
So please consider the Word of God they share with you...

What are those commandments that we keep in the New Covenant? Do you actually think John is telling you to keep the commandments of the O.T. law of Moses? If you think that, then prove it. But you might want to actually read it first...

(1Jo 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

(1Jo 3:22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

(1Jo 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

(1Jo 3:24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

These are the commandments RibI.

Believe in them, keep THEM, and be Blessed in His NEW Law-ful Marriage Covenant.

Son of Israel

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That's right
This epistle documents the commandments of God that the same author wrote about in another of his works, Revelation.

So, what about the first covenant, the ten commandments?
Galatians 4:30
Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
The covenant given at Sinai doesn't confer eternal life.

rcorlew said:

I have seen so many debates back and forth about whether this or that is a sin, and on and on and on.

So the real question is this; Is the Law still in effect today?

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Another exegesis where God compares the Old Lawful Marriage Covenant by Moses to the New Lawful Marriage Covenant in Christ...

Here is the state of the "woman" under that OLD LAW...

(Isa 26:17) Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
(Isa 26:18) We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth...

Now look at the state of the "woman" under the NEW LAW...

(Rev 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(Rev 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(Rev 12:5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

God's first wife was barren, as are all those under that O.T. Law.
They are, at best, just passing gas.
No deliverance in that old law of sin and death.

But those in the N.T. Law in Christ, as a Virgin Bride bringing forth the Son of God caught up to God's Throne!

So again, what "LAW" do you want to be married to God under?

Son of Israel

The red letter edition. Just for you. You can thank me later.

Son of Israel said:

You people need to listen to the word of the Lord as Frogster is delievering it to you. I would much rather listen to God, but thanks.

Why do you rebel so much against the simple truth and freedom in the Law of Christ? Yes there is much freedom in God's Law, freedom from the concequences of breaking His Law. Which include eternal death. And, the reason you and Frogster rebel is plainly stated in Ro. 8:7

It is called the "NEW" TESTAMENT FOR A REASON... What profit do you have in attempting to push your "old" law? You can't do it. You will die under it. The NT includes putting God's Laws in our hearts and minds, not throwing them out.

Would God think to marry His old Harlot wife under the Old Lawful marriage covenant again?? Isn't He pleased with His New Lawfully wedded Wife in Christ? Yes, and she is always pictured as keeping the Laws of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. They are inseperable.

I have never seen such silliness...Talk about silliness? You, polishing Frogster's apple, will get you nowhere. You must work out your own salvation.[/quote]

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VictorC said:

I have just a few points to offer, since it appears (so far) that you don't intend to respond to either of the two posts that I linked in my post directed to you.

• You do have to cite or quote the texts from Scripture. Even though I know my Bible's contents sufficiently to recognize some of the ideas you present, I don't think you're aware of the Biblical texts yourself, and part of the learning experience here is gained by supporting your points with Scripture. The exercise may show you that Scripture doesn't say what you think it does.
• Since it was the Hand of God that took away the covenant engraved on tables of stone that were written by the Finger of God, the appeal to common sense would demonstrate that the ten commandments have already lost their jurisdiction over God's redeemed children.
• The texts explaining that the ten commandments were the first covenant mediated by Moses, spoken by and then removed by God when He estabished the new covenant, are not from modern Evangelicals. This is explained by Scripture, which was penned long before there was a Catholic or Protestant theologian in existence.
• The claim that someone is keeping 9 out of 10 commandments of the first covenant is itself a new idea that was spawned sometime around 1649 with the Westminster Confession (the roots of its thought go back much earlier, but long after the close of canon). Paul explained that we were delivered from the law containing the commandment "You shall not covet", which is in the ten commandments. The church doesn't abide by the first covenant, and we don't claim to keep 90% of it, knowing full well that God has concluded all to be disobedient to that covenant. "All" includes you as well.
• The New Testament church is urged to abide by the commandments of God that we have received - which contains nothing about the sabbath ordinance. We don't keep a sabbath once a day in the week, because when it was taken away God granted us entrance into His rest that is permanent. The church is not called to leave God's rest to return to the temporal rest that pointed to His rest - we are actually commanded to throw out the old covenant's decrees according to Galatians 4:30.

Is it too much to ask of you to defend the ideas your "prophet" installed into your noggin with Scripture as your guide?
Judging from the reponses others have written, I don't think it is.

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VictorC: I assumed that you know your Bible and sacred history. We don't need to re-invent the wheel every time we make a post. How many times have I mentioned EGW as a reference for doctrine? None. You seem to mention EGW more times than I do. What I believe is based on the Bible, not tradition, or what well known preachers believe. You come to conclusions based on the popular evangelical view of the "law" and try do away with by putting spin on Bible texts that never clearly saying that the 10 Commandment have been changed or done away with. You are promoting lawlessness which is exactly what the Antichrist does. These four Bible texts explode your whole premise: Gen. 2:3,proves the Sabbath was made for all of mankind for all time and it predated sin or the Jews. Exodus 20, proves that 10 Commandments were written by the finger of God in stone and meant to be immutable (and no where in the Bible did Jesus or the Apostles say that any had been changed or done away with). Hebrews 8:5, states that the earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly, therefore the real ark of the covenant containing the 10 Commandments are contained therein. Rev. 11:19, proves that it is indeed there in the Most Holy Place where no man or angel or devil can change it! Then why are you saying is has been changed or done away with?! Only God himself could change the 10 Commandments, and there in NO record of him ever doing that, therefore we are to trust and obey until told to do otherwise.

BrightCandle said:

VictorC: I assumed that you know your Bible and sacred history. We don't need to re-invent the wheel every time we make a post. How many times have I mentioned EGW as a reference for doctrine? None. You seem to mention EGW more times than I do. What is believe is based on the Bible, not tradition, or what well known preachers believe. You come to conclusions based on the popular evangelical view of the "law" and try do away with by putting spin on Bible texts that never clearly saying that the 10 Commandment have been changed or done away with. You are promoting lawlessness which is exactly what the Antichrist does. These four Bible texts explode your whole premise: Gen. 2:3,proves the Sabbath was made for all of mankind for all time and it predated sin or the Jews. Exodus 20, proves that 10 Commandments were written by the finger of God in stone and meant to be immutable (and no where in the Bible did Jesus or the Apostles say that any had been changed or done away with). Hebrews 8:5, states that the earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly, therefore the real ark of the covenant containing the 10 Commandments are contained therein. Rev. 11:19, proves that it is indeed there in the Most Holy Place where no man or angel or devil can change it! Then why are you saying is has been changed or done away with?! Only God himself could change the 10 Commandments, and there in NO record of him ever doing that, therefore we are to trust and obey until told to do otherwise.

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ahhh,but I could just as easily ask..

Who are you to toss out the others like they are not as important?
Did God say they were not as important?Some others had a death penalty besides the 10.

Look here,how they saw the law..

Exodus 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”

BrightCandle said:

VictorC: I assumed that you know your Bible and sacred history. We don't need to re-invent the wheel every time we make a post. How many times have I mentioned EGW as a reference for doctrine? None. You seem to mention EGW more times than I do.

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I mentioned the "prophet" of the SDA church for the reason that you continue to post material that isn't Biblical, and it comes naturally to conclude that the ideas that you opine came from the source of authority acknowledged in SDA Fundamental Belief #18. However, I didn't mention the "prophet" in any of the five bulleted points, and you didn't offer any response to any of them. While I didn't provide Scriptural citations for the points I made in all of them, I would be delighted to had you merely requested them. But, you didn't even engage in any of them with any defense for yourself.

BrightCandle said:

What is believe is based on the Bible, not tradition, or what well known preachers believe.

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This opinion of yours is suspect, at the very least. This claim will be addessed a bit later.

BrightCandle said:

You come to conclusions based on the popular evangelical view of the "law" and try do away with by putting spin on Bible texts that never clearly saying that the 10 Commandment have been changed or done away with.

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Actually, all of the points that I have persented are entirely Biblical.
Had you engaged in the points I made, you would have quickly learned that was the source of the doctrine I present, and not a tradition found outside of sola Scriptura.
In other words, you made an accusation based on a vacuum.

BrightCandle said:

You are promoting lawlessness which is exactly what the Antichrist does. These four Bible texts explode your whole premise: Gen. 2:3,proves the Sabbath was made for all of mankind for all time and it predated sin or the Jews.

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Genesis 2:2-3 reveals the seventh day of creation, and is quoted in Hebrews 4:4. The seventh day recorded in the Genesis account was God's "My rest" that predated the sabbath by roughly 2500 years. God's rest was permanent, having never ended to this day, while the sabbath was a periodic rest "made for man" and not God, as Jesus said it was in Mark 2:27.

In other words, you have mistaken the seventh day for the sabbath, which didn't exist until it was ordained to determine Israel's readiness for the covenant law, as recorded in Exodus 16:4 - and that was the first time the sabbath existed.

BrightCandle said:

Exodus 20, proves that 10 Commandments were written by the finger of God in stone and meant to be immutable

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On October 17th I had written a post to your attention on this thread, which you have either overlooked or chosen to disregard. The claim you opine that the first covenant was meant to be immutable doesn't garner support from Scripture, and it implies a claim that God's isn't sovereign over His created entity. Jesus claimed the very opposite of your implication concerning His sovereignty over the created law in Matthew 17:24-26, and Paul acknowledges the same sovereignty God has over the law in Galatians 4:1.

Here's what I had written in that post on the 17th:

Victor said:

Making a claim that the ten commandments will stand forever isn't cognizant of the temporal nature of the first covenant, which was the ten commandments. We know the origin of the ten commandments, which was initially given through Moses and wasn't made with anyone in a generation prior to Moses (Deuteronomy 5:2-3). We also know the termination of the ten commandments, which was abolished as far as jurisdiction over God's redeemed children was concerned when God made a new covenant to replace the former (Hebrews 8:13). An entity with a known origin and disposition isn't eternal, and your claim isn't compliant with Scripture.

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Your claim that the first covenant (the ten commandments) is permanent and immutable was already refuted using Scripture. You didn't respond then, and I wonder if you will this time.

BrightCandle said:

(and no where in the Bible did Jesus or the Apostles say that any had been changed or done away with).

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That is completely unreconcilable with Hebrews 10:9 explaining that Jesus took away the first covenant in order to establish the new covenant, and the only place you will find the sabbath ordinance is in the first covenant. Your opinion is also unreconcilable with the many narratives of New Testament Scripture detailing our redemption from the law of the first covenant:

• Romans 7:6 - now we are delivered from the law (quoting from the ten commandments in verse 7)
• Romans 10:4 - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
• 2 Corinthians 3:7-13 - the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones...the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished
• Ephesians 2:15 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances
• Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
• 1 Timothy 1:9 - the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners
• Galatians 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law
• Galatians 4:4-5 - God sent forth his Son...To redeem them that were under the law

BrightCandle said:

Hebrews 8:5, states that the earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly, therefore the real ark of the covenant containing the 10 Commandments are contained therein.

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Again, quoting my post from the 17th:

Victor said:

Hebrews 8 does describe Moses being shown the sanctuary in heaven, and being instructed to make a copy of it when he embarked on the fabrication of the tabernacle, the tent that was later replaced by Solomon's temple. It doesn't infer that there was a covenant comprised of the ten commandments, for the reason that the ten commandments are not a part of the sanctuary.

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Again, your claim was previously refuted using Scripture.

BrightCandle said:

Rev. 11:19, proves that it is indeed there in the Most Holy Place where no man or angel or devil can change it!

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Yet again, from my post from the 17th:

Victor said:

Revelation 11:19 describes the temple being opened in heaven, and the narrative describes the appearance of the interior from a vantage outside the temple. There are a couple of items missing from the description:

• There is no curtain seperating a division of the HP and the MHP where the ark of the covenant was contained in the earthly example, and was only seen once a year by one individual.
• There is no appearance of the book of the law that is placed outside of the ark of the covenant, and it is that book of the law we read the ten commandments from and was to remain as a witness against Israel, as recorded in Deuteronomy 31:26.

Where there is no law remaining as a witness against Israel, there is no reason to assume that the tables of stone are inside the ark of God's testimony, and there is no text that suggests that they are. The tables of stone were only for God's vassal Israel in the covenant relationship that existed only on earth. The covenant (Deuteronomy 4:12-13) was made with a people on earth - not in heaven (Deuteronomy 5:2-3). The covenant comprised by the ten commandments was not made with any other nation (Deuteronomy 4:8), and that includes anyone off the planet earth.

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BrightCandle said:

Then why are you saying is has been changed or done away with?!

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Because it was the Hand of God that took away the first covenant (Hebrews 10:9), which was the ten commandments ordained at Sinai - defined in the law itself (Exodus 34:27-28 and Deuteronomy 4:12-13).

BrightCandle said:

Only God himself could change the 10 Commandments, and there in NO record of him ever doing that, therefore we are to trust and obey until told to do otherwise.

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God did just a wee bit more than merely change the ten commandments, deemed necessary just to have a new High Priest that the law didn't authorize (Hebrews 7:11-14). God abolished the former covenant of the ten commandments engraved on tables of stone, as 2 Corinthians 3:6-13 proclaim.

I apologize that links aren't working in the editor tonight - I'm typing in HTML codes simply for the list and font functions. I would have been delighted to link my earlier post, that already refuted the opinions you repeated in this post. At least it would have saved some time typing all this stuff again...

I must say that I am more than just a little concerned that you don't seem to understand that there is a new covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ that defines Christianity. The points you make are from a perspective of orthodox Judaism, showing a rejection of the new covenant entirely. If nothing else, this one point demands your response.

Now, remember what you had written earlier?

BrightCandle said:

What is believe is based on the Bible, not tradition, or what well known preachers believe.

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What you have written is in stark contrast to the Bible, noncompliant with sola Scriptura, and your views force a conclusion that your doctrines came from somewhere other than the Bible.
Just like the SDA "prophet", Ellen White - who refused to permit Biblical scholarship to be presented to her for fifty years (I will furnish that quote from the White Estate on request).

Frogster said:

ahhh,but I could just as easily ask..

Who are you to toss out the others like they are not as important?
Did God say they were not as important?Some others had a death penalty besides the 10.

Look here,how they saw the law..

Exodus 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”

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Frogster: Do you have common sense? When Jesus wrote the 10 Commandments in stone with his own finger, and didn't even allow Moses to do that doesn't that make a statement? The other "laws" were written by Moses on parchment. Stone outlasts paper, there is your answer.

i see where this tread is going Well if i may jump in. I just wanted to make sure you guys knew the purpose of the Law. As I said earlier in this post, the moral laws of God never change. The ceremonial laws however were meant for Jews who lived in a specific era of time. The Law of God, 10 commandments were never meant to save anyone. The Law cannot save. In short, God is saying "Here is my law and you can't keep it and I'll curse you for that"

Gal 3:10

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law to perform them."

"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident for the righteous man shall live by faith"

And this is the focal verse "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law having become a curse for us."

Verse 21 says that it shut up all men under sin. In other words, it taught us that we are sinful sinners. And its crucial that men understood that condition. As far a the ceremonial aspect of the law, all that is set aside because it was uniquely identified only to Israel. If it is true that salvation is by faith, not works, not keeping the law, then why did God give the law? If the law can't save you and if salvation is based on faith, why the law? As MacArthur says "To develop the necessity and a great expectation for the Redeemer by revealing human sinfulness to the degree that it would create the desperation in men that drives them to the Savior."

We can thank God that Christ is the end of the law. Nevertheless, we are to strive and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because God's moral laws never changes. Though we are freed from the Law, we are not free to SIN. Thats the very argument Paul knocks down in ROmans. Shall we sin that Grace abound!? May it never be! With a new heart comes new holy aspiration and longing. Sure we as believers are saved and safe in the arms of God, no longer to be judged under the law. As pastor Adrian Rogers like to put it, I sin all I want ...... because I don't want to.

ps - tone down folks, we don't want another soteriology forum shutdown. wheres the gentleness ^^

Victor: Your mind has been twisted by determined theologians who hate God's Law. Scores of Bible commentators for centuries have recognized that Gen. 2 is the Sabbath. The text described in Gen. 2 is almost identical to Ex.20:8 when it refers back to creation. The texts that you quote mostly from Paul's writings and the book of Hebrews are not doing away with God's 10 Commandments, but dealing with issues related to the ceremonial laws, that were transitory in nature. Regarding the book of Hebrews, remember, the author was writing to the Hebrews, not Gentiles, that would have flipped out, if the author was saying that the Sabbath no longer to be kept! Not, the author of Hebrews that those who were disobediant never experienced that "rest", they how do you think you will experience that rest when you willfully refuse to honor the Sabbath?!
You say God did away with the 10 Commandments, if that was the case why were the Apostles and in particular Paul keeping after Jesus was crucified? Note, that Paul was never accused of Sabbath breaking by the Jews. And the disciples kept the Sabbath while Jesus rested in the tomb. Obviously Jesus never told them of any change before his death or after his resurrection, the God that I serve would not leave his church in the dark like that. The vision that John had in Revelation of the ark of the covenant explodes your whole premise. The ark of the covenant was always associated with the 10 Commandments! The fact that John was shown it in God's temple (the Most Holy Place), should be enough evidence in itself, there didn't need to be a detailed description of every little detail, they knew what the Ark of the Covenant was all about, it was the most holy thing in the Jews economy. Do you think that the Ark of the Covenant that John had the Ten Commandments stolen or lost? I don't think so? It formed the foundation of God's throne! Victor, someday you will see that Holy Law that you are trying to discard will be the standard in the judgement, are you ready to deal with that?

sungaunga said:

i see where this tread is going Well if i may jump in. I just wanted to make sure you guys knew the purpose of the Law. As I said earlier in this post, the moral laws of God never change. The ceremonial laws however were meant for Jews who lived in a specific era of time. The Law of God, 10 commandments were never meant to save anyone. The Law cannot save. In short, God is saying "Here is my law and you can't keep it and I'll curse you for that"

Gal 3:10

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law to perform them."

"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident for the righteous man shall live by faith"

And this is the focal verse "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law having become a curse for us."

Verse 21 says that it shut up all men under sin. In other words, it taught us that we are sinful sinners. And its crucial that men understood that condition. As far a the ceremonial aspect of the law, all that is set aside because it was uniquely identified only to Israel. If it is true that salvation is by faith, not works, not keeping the law, then why did God give the law? If the law can't save you and if salvation is based on faith, why the law? As MacArthur says "To develop the necessity and a great expectation for the Redeemer by revealing human sinfulness to the degree that it would create the desperation in men that drives them to the Savior."

We can thank God that Christ is the end of the law. Nevertheless, we are to strive and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because God's moral laws never changes. Though we are freed from the Law, we are not free to SIN. Thats the very argument Paul knocks down in ROmans. Shall we sin that Grace abound!? May it never be! With a new heart comes new holy aspiration and longing. Sure we as believers are saved and safe in the arms of God, no longer to be judged under the law. As pastor Adrian Rogers like to put it, I sin all I want ...... because I don't want to.

ps - tone down folks, we don't want another soteriology forum shutdown. wheres the gentleness ^^

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Thanks for pointing out that the "moral laws" never change, including the Sabbath with is #4 of the moral laws.