The Doctrines Of Grace

I have been thinking and there is one issue that really does support limited atonement.

If Jesus was punished on the cross for the sins of the entire world then the entire world would go to heaven would they not? I mean how would it be that God would punish a persons sins on Jesus and then punish that person again for his sins in hell? that doesnt make sense to me.

Im starting to lean to the calvanist doctrine and I just hope and pray that I am one of the elect because the past 10 yrs I lived in so much sin that it would seem that like Pharoe God took his restraining hand off of me and removed the grace that brings salvation. I hope im wrong about myself as it makes me feel very very uneasy.

Vince53 said:

Having seen that irrestiible grace in not Biblical,

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Where have we seen that?

Vince53 said:

and that God really does want all men to be saved,

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Are they?

Vince53 said:

we come to the question: Did Jesus die for all men? Or did He only die for some men?

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John Owen summed it up best:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."How long will you avoid these questions?

Vince53 said:

John 1:29 ¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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it is clear that you are imposing 21st century usage and meanings rules onto 16th Century English usage and meanings. Does "all" always mean "every one"? Does "World" always mean the entire world and everyone in it? If so, certainly you can show us why these passages mean everyone, and the entire world and everyone in it. It shouldn't be hard to do.

RobertZ, Brother, a reprobate would not be concerned with such things. Augustine said something to the extent of, anyone who wishes to be elect, is.

The theological nature of his statement is quite profound. It is not that anyone on a whim who decides in himself to be elect is, but that only those who God has chosen before the foundation of the world will have a desire to be elect. The non-elect will have no desire.

Paul called himself the chief of sinners, and yet was the Apostle who changed the world. None of your sins are so great that the Blood of Christ is not greater.

JacobHall86 said:

RobertZ, Brother, a reprobate would not be concerned with such things. Augustine said something to the extent of, anyone who wishes to be elect, is.

The theological nature of his statement is quite profound. It is not that anyone on a whim who decides in himself to be elect is, but that only those who God has chosen before the foundation of the world will have a desire to be elect. The non-elect will have no desire.

Paul called himself the chief of sinners, and yet was the Apostle who changed the world. None of your sins are so great that the Blood of Christ is not greater.

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Okay I will try to relax, just the thought of spending eternity burning in a lake of fire with screaming people in torment all around me scares the day lights out of me!

I guess to that I just keep thinking about all the times when I was younger and under conviction in church that I didnt go forward when I knew I should have so I was afraid that I had waited to long to get saved if you know what I mean? It seemed like God had stopped trying to save me.

JacobHall86 said:

Paul called himself the chief of sinners, and yet was the Apostle who changed the world. None of your sins are so great that the Blood of Christ is not greater.

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One thing though.......Paul sinned in ignorance thus he found mercy. My sins were not sins of ignorance at all, I knew exactly that what I was doing was in rebellion to God that is why its hard for me to believe that I am forgivable.

The Bible does not take presumptuous sins lightly at all and in fact its usually punished by death.

RobertZ said:

One thing though.......Paul sinned in ignorance thus he found mercy. My sins were not sins of ignorance at all, I knew exactly that what I was doing was in rebellion to God that is why its hard for me to believe that I am forgivable.

The Bible does not take presumptuous sins lightly at all and in fact its usually punished by death.

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Romans 5 says that it matters not whether we are conscience or not of sin, we still sin. Paul was explaining that sins committed, whether known or not, are forgiven by Christ on the behalf of the elect.

Your forgiveness is not granted on how good you are (or in reality how bad you were) but on the basis that Jesus is the one who made payment, ALL payment on behalf of his people. No sin is to great.

JacobHall86 said:

Romans 5 says that it matters not whether we are conscience or not of sin, we still sin. Paul was explaining that sins committed, whether known or not, are forgiven by Christ on the behalf of the elect.

Your forgiveness is not granted on how good you are (or in reality how bad you were) but on the basis that Jesus is the one who made payment, ALL payment on behalf of his people. No sin is to great.

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I didnt realize that, thanks Jacob.

RobertZ said:

I didnt realize that, thanks Jacob.

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There is a song I love called "Deeper Than The Stain Has Gone."


Dark the stain that soiled man's nature
long the distance that he fell
Far removed from hope and Heaven
into deep despair and Hell
But there was a fountain opened
And the blood of God's own Son
Purifies the soul and reaches
Deeper than the stain has gone

(Chorus)
Praise the Lord for full salvation
God still reigns upon His throne
And I know the blood still reaches
deeper than the stain has gone

Conscious of the deep pollution
Sinners wander in the night
Tho' they hear the Shepherd calling
they still fear to face the light
This the blessed consolation
that can melt the heart of stone
That sweet balm of Gilead reaches
deeper than the stain has gone
(Chorus)

All unworthy we who've wandered
and our eyes are wet with tears
As we think of love that sought us
through the weary wasted years
Yet we walk the holy highway
for the pure in heart alone
knowing Calvary's fountain reaches
deeper than the stain has gone
(Chorus)

When with holy choirs we're standing
in the presence of the King
and our souls are lost in wonder
while the white robed choirs sing
Then we'll praise the name of Jesus
with the millions round the throne
Praise Him for the power that reaches
deeper than the stain has gone.

TimRout said:

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy
“Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find it said that God ever softened the hearts of anyone so that they would necessarily believe the Gospel.”

I am sorry friend, but I must disagree. Consider this passage:

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." [Ez. 36:26-27/NASB]

Here, the heart of flesh is contrasted with the heart of stone. Stone is hard. Flesh is soft. A careful examination of the entire passage demonstrates that nowhere does God indicate or imply His saving activities are predicated on the people's "free will". You can find a more thorough discussion of Ezekiel 36 HERE.

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Refuting a statement that I did not make and obviously would disagree with does not refute the statement that I did make: “Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find it said that God ever softened the hearts of anyone so that they would necessarily believe the Gospel.” The mere fact that nowhere in the entire passage from Ezekiel “does God indicate or imply His saving activities are predicated on the people's ‘free will’” is irrelevant because the passage is not speaking of the Church, but speaking of the renewal of Israel (this is not a place to get into the Plymouth Brethren doctrine of dispensationalism). Furthermore, the mere fact that a doctrine is not taught in one chapter of the Bible when it is taught in many other chapters is also irrelevant; and indeed, the doctrine of free grace is taught throughout the Bible and even in the Apocrypha, as I have already documented.

TimRout said:

Free will is the functional foundation of Arminian theology. Since every example text you have cited in support of free will can be otherwise interpreted in a hermeneutically consistent manner, and since you have no decreetive text to support the objective existence of free will to begin with, then your argument is ultimately unfounded.

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The mere fact that a group of Biblical texts can be interpreted in more than one hermeneutically consistent manner does not mean that all of the interpretations are correct; indeed, there is only one correct interpretation, and for an interpretation to be the correct interpretation, it must be in harmony with all of the relevant data. Neither the interpretation of Calvin nor the interpretation of Arminius are in harmony with all of that data. As I come upon data that is out of harmony with my interpretation of the Scriptures, I modify my interpretation accordingly.

TimRout said:

Furthermore, citing free will as the reason a person comes to faith in Christ is meaningless. If redemption is potentially available to all, and God does not act in violation of most people's freedom, then there must be some reason why one believes and another does not. Free will (if it exists) provides the capacity to choose, but never a motive for choosing. At the end of the day, if a person's motive for choosing Christ is something other than the sovereign regenerating action of the Holy Spirit, then there must be something in the individual -- some personal merit or quality -- that compels him to believe. And that, my friend, is NOT the gospel.

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I have not taken very many courses in Christian philosophy and, looking up at my book selves, I see that I have only 12 books on the subject, and 4 of them are very brief; therefore, I cannot claim to know any more than a very little bit about it. Nonetheless, I agree that there must be some reason why one believes and another does not. In my own case, as a boy I rejected the gospel because the Bible had no credibility whatsoever in my sight because I wrongly interpreted the Bible to teach young earth creationism and I knew about the Bristle Cone Pines and other facts that incontrovertibly proved that the earth was not so young as I wrongly interpreted the Bible to teach (about 6,000 year). By the grace of God, however, a group of four young people invited me to a youth service at their church. At the moment, I had nothing better to do, so I went. I very much enjoyed the service and began attending it regularly. This resulted in some meaningful friendships and I began attending their church on Sunday nights. The worship service was very lively, joyful and uplifting. Sunday night was the church’s evangelism night and the sermons were very evangelistic. The pastor had almost no education and knew almost nothing about the Bible, but he had a gift for preaching and was very entertaining.

After several months, seeing that I was no more of a believer than when I first walked into the door, the youth minister, after a Sunday night service, asked me if he could pray for me. I saw no harm in that, so I gave him my permission and he laid his hands on me and began to cry out to God for my salvation. The custom of the congregation was to remain in the church for a time of fellowship after the Sunday night services, so it was still there and they joined the youth pastor in praying for me. Wow! That was a new and radical experience for me—the people were praying for me with every ounce of their being as they called out to God on my behalf. They deeply loved me, and wanted so very much for me to come to know the Jesus who was so very real to them. A few minutes after midnight, however, I decided that I really needed to go home and I told the youth pastor that. He asked me if I wanted to get saved, and I politely told him that I simply did not believe as he did.

A few weeks later, I was talking with a Baptist friend of mine about this on a Saturday night and he began to passionately witness to me. After two hours of this, he asked me to get down on my knees with him and say a sinner’s prayer. I loved my Baptist friend, but I did not believe the gospel. Nevertheless, out of my love for my friend, I promised to answer the altar call in my church the following night.

When the altar call was given, I absolutely hated the idea of walking up to the front of the church “to get saved,” but I had made a promise to a friend, and although he was not there, I knew that I had to keep the promise. Therefore, I forced myself to go forward.

The pastors were busy with other people who went forward, so the senior pastor’s wife came over to me. She asked me if I wanted to get saved, and I told her why I had come forward. She asked me to repeat after her the words to a sinner’s prayer and I did so. Some people in the congregation heard me and began to shout, “Thank you, Jesus!” “Glory be to God!” Soon, the whole congregation was shouting and praising God, but I quietly got up and went home, feeling good that I had kept my promise to my friend.

For the next three weeks, I continued going to my church and a Baptist coffee house that I had been going to for months, but my life had not changed at all, nor had I changed at all. Then one night at the Baptist coffee house, a young man asked me if I was a Christian, and I told him that I was not. He took out of his pocket a “Four Spiritual Laws” tract and began to share it with me while I didn’t say a word; but all of a sudden he stopped and looked at me and said, “I don’t know why you lied to me about not being a Christian, but I can tell that you are.” I was caught off guard, and I told him about what had happened three weeks ago. Someone in the room overheard, and shouted out, “Charlie Brown got saved!” I was absolutely shocked and more embarrassed than I thought possible, and I got up and got out of that place.

A few nights later I was walking down the main drag in downtown San Diego, Broadway, and as I stepped up onto the curb from 4th Avenue and began walking along Horton Plaza, I noticed a young sailor standing near the corner. I had seen him there before, and sensed that he was propositioning himself to other men, but that was very common on Horton Plaza, so I hadn’t given any thought to it. But that night, something was very different—not about him—but about me! I wanted to just keep on walking, and even forced myself to do so for several steps, but I felt something inside of me forcing me to turn around. I tried to resist, but I couldn’t, and I walked right up to the young sailor and asked him if he was prostituting himself.

He told me that he was, and he began to cry, and then he took off like a rocket—running down Broadway toward the bay. And there I went—running after him. He ran right through the red traffic lights—dodging the cars, trucks, and buses; and I ran after him, right through the red traffic lights—dodging the traffic. He finally took cover behind a large pillar on the front of a building, but I saw where he went, and I ran up behind him and felt my hand being lifted up onto his shoulder, and heard Bible verses coming out of my mouth as he leaned up against the pillar with his face in his hands, crying.

After a few minutes, the young man turned around and told me that his name was Bob, that he was a Christian, that he was in the Navy, and that he was married and that his wife was expecting a baby, but that he was getting ready to go on a West Pacific cruise for several months and would be out to sea when the baby was born. He was extremely lonely, confused, and hurting inside—and he told me that he began to run because he was embarrassed, but that as he was running, he was hoping that I would care enough to pursue him and help him.

Up to that point in my life, servicemen had been little more than scum in my sight, but here I was holding in my arms a serviceman, and loving him more than life itself. And then I knew,

“The hand of Jesus touched me,
and now I am no longer the same.”
(Lyrics by William J. Gaither)

PrincetonGuy said:

A few nights later I was walking down the main drag in downtown San Diego, Broadway, and as I stepped up onto the curb from 4th Avenue and began walking along Horton Plaza, I noticed a young sailor standing near the corner. I had seen him there before, and sensed that he was propositioning himself to other men, but that was very common on Horton Plaza, so I hadn’t given any thought to it. But that night, something was very different—not about him—but about me! I wanted to just keep on walking, and even forced myself to do so for several steps, but I felt something inside of me forcing me to turn around. I tried to resist, but I couldn’t, and I walked right up to the young sailor and asked him if he was prostituting himself.

He told me that he was, and he began to cry, and then he took off like a rocket—running down Broadway toward the bay. And there I went—running after him. He ran right through the red traffic lights—dodging the cars, trucks, and buses; and I ran after him, right through the red traffic lights—dodging the traffic. He finally took cover behind a large pillar on the front of a building, but I saw where he went, and I ran up behind him and felt my hand being lifted up onto his shoulder, and heard Bible verses coming out of my mouth as he leaned up against the pillar with his face in his hands, crying.

After a few minutes, the young man turned around and told me that his name was Bob, that he was a Christian, that he was in the Navy, and that he was married and that his wife was expecting a baby, but that he was getting ready to go on a West Pacific cruise for several months and would be out to sea when the baby was born. He was extremely lonely, confused, and hurting inside—and he told me that he began to run because he was embarrassed, but that as he was running, he was hoping that I would care enough to pursue him and help him.

Up to that point in my life, servicemen had been little more than scum in my sight, but here I was holding in my arms a serviceman, and loving him more than life itself. And then I knew,

“The hand of Jesus touched me,
and now I am no longer the same.”
(Lyrics by William J. Gaither)

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That has to be about the most touching thing I have ever heard of in all my life, I need some tissue now!

When I was in college, a lesson from Arthur W. Pink was used a s an outstanding example of bad theology. Although the Bible used the word "kosmos" for the "world," Pink insisted that in some cases it meant the world of elect Gentiles, in other places the world of the lost, in other places the world of the elect, etc. So when various verses showed that the world is evil, that God loved the world, and that Jesus died for the world, Pink would simply invent a new definition for the word.

In the Greek language, "kosmos" meant the "world." It did not mean the "elect." Changing the definition of the word was necessary to make St. Augustine's false system work, because there are just too many Scripture verses that show that God wants the entire world to be saved.

Vince53 said:

When I was in college, a lesson from Arthur W. Pink was used a s an outstanding example of bad theology.

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#1 What college ?

#2 A.W. Pink and bad theology is an oxymoron.

In the Greek language, "kosmos" meant the "world." It did not mean the "elect." Changing the definition of the word was necessary to make St. Augustine's false system work, because there are just too many Scripture verses that show that God wants the entire world to be saved.

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#1 Anyone who knows greek would tell you that in the gospel according to John he uses the root word for world up to 11 different ways.

#2 Show me the Scriptures that say everyone in the whole world has been atoned for and saved.

Vince53 said:

When I was in college, a lesson from Arthur W. Pink was used a s an outstanding example of bad theology. Although the Bible used the word "kosmos" for the "world," Pink insisted that in some cases it meant the world of elect Gentiles, in other places the world of the lost, in other places the world of the elect, etc. So when various verses showed that the world is evil, that God loved the world, and that Jesus died for the world, Pink would simply invent a new definition for the word.

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What do you expect from an instructor with an agenda (not Pink)? Obivously the instructor did not agree with Pink, so he tried to use Pink as an example of what NOT to believe, in order to replicate his own agenda in his students.

Vince53 said:

In the Greek language, "kosmos" meant the "world." It did not mean the "elect." Changing the definition of the word was necessary to make St. Augustine's false system work, because there are just too many Scripture verses that show that God wants the entire world to be saved.

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Then you should be able to explain why the Sovereign God, the Creator and Sustainer of the entire Universe and every thing in it, right down to the subatomic particles, in Whom the entire Creation is held together by the Word of His Power, can so often be denied His stated desire that all men be saved. And while you're providing what I'm sure will be your answer, please show us where in scripture that God has decreed that man have libertarian free will that is not subject to the corruption of his soul by sin, and able to choose against his nature that which he finds foolish, exercise saving faith while still dead in trespasses and sins, dead to the things of God, dead to righteousness, and a hater and enemy of God. You continually assert these things, or your stated assertions logically lead to them. Surely you can show us scripture to prove these things beyond any gainsaying.

We'll wait while you gather that information to present to us, because we certainly do not want to be found believing false doctrine.....

And, for the thrid time, please refrain from using pejorative terms to describe that which you disagree with. Augustine's theology is not false, nor does Pink invent word definitions in order to prop up that which he teaches.

Returning to the Biblical doctrine that God wants everyone to be saved:

2 Peter 3:9 ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 4:14 ¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Vince53 said:

Returning to the Biblical doctrine that God wants everyone to be saved:

2 Peter 3:9 ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 4:14 ¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

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Then, logically, you are a Universalist. Thanks for clearing that up.