My problem is

Scientists are not God. They are human.

I-want2be-christian said:

that's right , who said bible is holy ?
There is no verse in bible saying that bible is holy book , just give me one verse , only
human said that , so if its god words then god didn't say this book is holy , and if it's human words then as u said not every thing human says is true

let me ask u , how did u know that this bible is god words ?

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here is the verse that you have asked for and it does use the word holy:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

the two verses above in blue tell us that scripture is holy and the word holy in greek is: hieros and it's meaning is:

1) sacred, consecrated to the deity, pertaining to God

a) sacred Scriptures, because inspired by God, treating of divine things and therefore to be devoutly revered

I hope this will help you. Also you said in another post that you believe Jesus to be a Prophet, do you know the test of a prophet is that whatever they say comes from God and it must come true. Jesus said of himself and of God and those that God gave him:

Jhn 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Jhn 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jhn 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


So if you believe that Jesus is a prophet it goes also that you would believe what he has declared about the Father and that He and the Father are one.
I hope that these Holy scriptures will help you and I pray that the Father will open your eyes and ears to the truth of the gospel, the good news, that Jesus died for your sin and all of mens sin.

one man set free,
Jeffrey

I-want2be-christian said:

that's right , who said bible is holy ?
There is no verse in bible saying that bible is holy book , just give me one verse , only
human said that , so if its god words then god didn't say this book is holy , and if it's human words then as u said not every thing human says is true

let me ask u , how did u know that this bible is god words ?

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Romans 1:2
the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

sjdean said:

Hello Jeffrey,

Unfortunately for me, that just raises one teeny tiny problem for me, people who never got a chance to hear the word of God, to read the Bible, or to feel Jesus.

Don't get me wrong, I've experienced Jesus, and I know this is right.

But perhaps God realised that there would still be people who would never be able to know Jesus and perhaps has given a path, even if not for salvation, then for at least drawing nearer to him.

I do kind of feel spirituality is a progressive one. I took 32 years to get where I am today and Im glad I have the end result. I consider that I've spent 32 years of learning.

Perhaps God gives specific things to different people at different times to make it easier for them to learn.

Or perhaps God is just as one website writes.

I found a website that suggests that God is a fair and just God. He's not going to hold us responsible for things we could not have possibly have known. Possibly the same thing exists for other religions, but rather than faith in Christ, God's mercy and justice decides each case.

References are to Romans 1, 2, and 3.

"Thankfully, this means, God in his mercy will judge these people through the law that they lived by- according to the standard they know to be true. We need to remember God is just in his judgement, he will not hold people to account for something they could not possibly know. So those who have never heard about Jesus will not be judged by their failure to follow him."

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That is a very dangerous assumption to make and please don't say this to anyone else. Romans 1:19 and 20, the very scripture that you list negates everything that you have just written. "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them: for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

How can you make a statement like that. We are all born sinners and without the shed blood of Jesus Christ there is no remission of sins. There will be no sinners in heaven! God does not make allowances for those whom have not accepted Jesus Christ.

The reason that there will be no one that has ever heard about Jesus is because of the "Great Commission" in Matthews 28:16-20

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Remember that the spreading the Word of God started in the Middle East and look at where it has gotten to today. There is no excuse that can be given and accepted for anyone when they appear before God to give an account for their sins of why they did not accept Christ.

And finally John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

So please don't ever say that God will not hold people accountable for something that they do not know because He has made it impossible for them not to know Jesus and the only way to receive salvation is through the Blood of Jesus. Those who have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour are lost and will spend eternity in a burning Hell because their is no such thing as purgatory!

Hello,

I have read just about every thread that you have submitted and I honestly don't really think that you are going to find what you are looking for within this forum. You have two of the best references right there in your home. Your christian mother who for her own reasons have chosen christianity and your father who for his reason have chosen the Muslim faith. You are inquisitive concerning Jesus, ask your mother what drew her to accepting Him into her life and then use that as a foundation to pursue your choice.

Many people wonder what the comparison is between Islam vs. Christianity. While there are a few similarities between Islam and Christianity, such as a belief in moral living and doing good to others, nevertheless, Muslims and Christians have vastly different views on major points of ideology and theology. First and foremost are the differing perceptions of Jesus, the Christ. Islam readily accepts that Jesus of Nazareth existed and that He was born of the virgin, Mary. Islam teaches that Jesus was merely another prophet, equal to and following in the line of Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the final messenger, superior to all previous prophets, the ultimate. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, which as the Jews accused of old, makes Him equal to God. He is accepted as the Second Person of the Trinity, God Himself come to earth in the flesh.

Islam also refutes the idea that Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross. They believe that God spared His messenger from such an ignominious death and later took Him up to Himself. For Christians, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is the focal point of all that they believe. The only way for man to be reconciled to a Holy God is for the ultimate price to be paid. Christians believe that Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price by shedding His blood. Without that precious act, Christians remain hopeless and in sin. "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22).

What you need is a personal one-to-one educational setting where you can discuss your questions with a man or woman of faith so that they can physically take you to the scriptures and let you see with your own eyes and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit you will receive the understanding that you are seeking.

I hope that you are serious about this and not just using the forum as a means to cause confusion.

I pray that God will draw you to the wisdom and knowledge of His Word and that through this knowledge you come to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior...Amen

alexanderjc said:

So please don't ever say that God will not hold people accountable for something that they do not know because He has made it impossible for them not to know Jesus and the only way to receive salvation is through the Blood of Jesus. Those who have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour are lost and will spend eternity in a burning Hell because their is no such thing as purgatory!

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Forgive the pop culture references. I am still very much learning. But from South Park, I wonder what happens to the mentally handicapped, those who are incapable of knowing, those who are were never given the chance to know in some foreign and remote tribe, those who for example, were kept captive by their abusive parents - say, what was his name, Fritzl?

I don't like the idea of going down the path of saying God has a plan he knows where we will be and which of his people he wants to save and so gives person A C and F the change of salvation only through Christ.

But if Salvation is only through Christ, then why doesn't that allow us to sin with no consequences? Romans seems to talk about judgement afterwards and so maybe we have works through Christ.

But of course then the problem becomes is that if salvation can be achieved through other things then that destroys the notion of Jesus. I don't know where the middle ground is formed, but I know it has to be there.

Perhaps for truly exceptional circumstances like that, there will be judgement and those exceptional people can be saved.

Or maybe, I was just thinking about this the other day, maybe through Christ we find the Holy Spirit, through the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Christ good works follows. But the lack of either doesn't mean we are incapable of good things. But with good things draws us to an understanding of God and both those people have a chance to be saved.

sjdean said:

Forgive the pop culture references. I am still very much learning. But from South Park, I wonder what happens to the mentally handicapped, those who are incapable of knowing, those who are were never given the chance to know in some foreign and remote tribe, those who for example, were kept captive by their abusive parents - say, what was his name, Fritzl?

I don't like the idea of going down the path of saying God has a plan he knows where we will be and which of his people he wants to save and so gives person A C and F the change of salvation only through Christ.

But if Salvation is only through Christ, then why doesn't that allow us to sin with no consequences? Romans seems to talk about judgement afterwards and so maybe we have works through Christ.

But of course then the problem becomes is that if salvation can be achieved through other things then that destroys the notion of Jesus. I don't know where the middle ground is formed, but I know it has to be there.

Perhaps for truly exceptional circumstances like that, there will be judgement and those exceptional people can be saved.

Or maybe, I was just thinking about this the other day, maybe through Christ we find the Holy Spirit, through the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Christ good works follows. But the lack of either doesn't mean we are incapable of good things. But with good things draws us to an understanding of God and both those people have a chance to be saved.

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My dear brother,

There are a lot things within the Christian Faith to ponder, vast is the mysteries of God however His Word, the Holy Scriptures were written to guide us and to answer those questions that we have. Our understanding of things tend to lead us to make assumptions that may sound good and rational but when what we think is lined up with the Word of God, the Word of God all of the time will prove us to be in error.

These are very important scriptures to hold dear to your heart.

Proverbs 3:5 - 6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

God is a just God therefore when this life is over for all of us, and I mean all of us, there would have been given to all of us even those who have physical, mental, social, economic, and geographic limitations the opportunity for salvation through accepting Jesus Christ. That's why we will be without excuse when we appear before His throne of judgement.

Remember always that there isn't anything impossible with God. His Holy Spirit can and does communicate with anyone in ways that we cannot understand.

1 Tim 2:15 says "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."

Do this my brother and take little steps to understand and obtain knowledge of the Scriptures. Meditate upon what you have read, ask God for His wisdom and understanding; He will answer your prayer. Through the guidance of His Holy Spirit things will be clearer to you as it pertains to His Divine Will to us and for us.

I love you in Christ

James

Yes I have pondered this also and what the Holy Spirit has shown me is the Scripture that says 'we do not need a teacher because the Word of God is in our hearts' - I'm paraphasing.

But the longing is in every person to worship a higher God, they may not know what it is, but it is there. Man confuses that longing by teaching people that it has to be a certain way. But God knows every man's heart.

I don't believe that God would create a person and allow them to be kept in a position that they could never know God - I know it is confusing, but I just truely believe that God will touch every person in some way.

You can take an animal and isolate it to never see another of its kind and it will know what to do and how to do it. It is built within them.

I have heard where mentally retarded people have prophesied and it has come true. Maybe they can't express themselves in words, but we do not know what God is showing them in their minds and hearts.

I have to beliieve that God never loses even one without having touched them in some way. If they chose to reject God, then that is the fault of man and not because they could not know God.

Jesus says that it is not his desire that any man should perish - he would not say that if there was not a way for a touch from the hand of God.

Hello Sharon,

Yes I have seen some understanding suggest that even people in remote areas can appreciate the wonders of God, they're shown God through his creation, through the animals, through the earth, water, life. Everything. Its hard to believe that there is no God. I know atheists think there isn't a God, so it isn't impossible.

But what about the word of the Bible and the knowledge of Jesus? What happens if someone is born deaf and blind. Yes I know Im taking it to extremes but even still!

Perhaps Im thinking too much as a human being and not in terms of Gods mercy and compassion. Perhaps those who say it is only Christ that matters in 100% of all circumstances and thinking too literally.

Perhaps it just is that God has a plan of salvation for people who cannot hear while those who can have to accept. Maybe Im being too nice. Maybe I should think about the old testament and think about how God favoured Group X and done away with Group Z!

Maybe only certain people are earmarked for salvation through Christ?

I could not think for one minute that God would exclude one person. He says in His Word that He does not desire even one person to be lost.

I think God makes allowances for those that are not capable of learning about Him. My in-laws were deaf - never taught about God - but they knew about God and searched Him out.

We do not know what Jesus meant when He said that He had other sheep - possibly those are the ones that He made provisions for. It is impossible for us to know, but I do know that God knowing how many hairs we have on our head would not be watching over those that are not able to speak for theirselves.

It seems bizarre that whenever this question comes up, we ask, "what happens to those people who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus and therefore have faith in Jesus". Then people come back with a retort about God being in all things.

Fair enough about God. The evidence of God is everywhere. Knowing that Christ died on the cross for our sins is another thing.

But then if salvation can be achieved through other things then Jesus dying on the cross is nullified. If Jesus is the only way then there are poor people who probably never deserved their fate.

I was reading Deuteronomy, and it strikes me through that book that God is just and forgiving, come near to him, listen to him and he will forgive you and look after you.

Cya
Simon

Jeffwhosoever said:

Hence the need for Evangelism - our obligation as ones who are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ are charged with the responsibility to share the Gospel message with others. I give to overseas missions and to Gideons international, as well as through other outreach organizations. Internet and television and radio reaches those within the reach of technology, but much of the world is not digitally connected and so we must send people on the ground.

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I agree with you brother 100%. Why is it that some people will not take the Word of God for what it says rather than try to give their own analogy of what they feel or think that He means? He has already told us in Romans 10:9 how to receive salvation.

For those of you who think that God has not taken into account all aspects of our human condition then obviously you don't believe that God is all knowing. All people are included in the harvest of souls and God has blessed us with laborers for the harvest which includes us. There are many children of God that have been gifted with the ability to read, understand and communicate sign language. God has gifted servants that are missionaries all over the world doing the very service that you are concerned about.

Read and believe that the Word of God is True!

Romans 10:14-21

14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

That should clear up any misunderstanding about what God says concerning those who think that there we be some people that will or have not had a chance to receive salvation through the Blood of Jesus Christ.

But guys, take an extreme example. Someone who is both deaf and blind. How do you evengelise to them. You can't show them a Bible, you can't read the Bible to them.

I-want2be-christian said:

hello micky
as we talking I like to have evidences of what you are trying to say . Like I did . I brought to you 2 different verses of bible . And gave you 2 bible scientists with the name of the book and the page .saying that bible is human words .
Now I want you to bring 2 different verses of arabic quran ( and you can't ) and muslim scientist saying quran is made by human .
Otherwise I will consider your reply as LIES

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If you had checked the article I cited, you would have realized it had already given you two verses of the arabic quran -- earlier than the texts now published of the quran -- that are different in wording.

I-want2be-christian said:

about killing and force , I think cristians is the last ppl should talk about killing and force . The world war 1 and 2 .wasn't made by muslims , Hitler wasn't muslim ,

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... nor Christians.

I-want2be-christian said:

the KKK killing black ppl in USA they were christians weren't they?

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Yes, they were. Racists can ignore their religion for their stridency over race. I'd highly recommend this lesson be heeded by Arabic Muslims as well, who seem to believe there Arabic heritage is somehow superior on a spiritual level to others.

I-want2be-christian said:

The war on Vitnam and Somalia wasn't made by muslim american presidents. I think they were christians. So let us not talk about killing and force

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Oh no, let's talk about killing and force. There's blood on the hands of both sides. If you believe otherwise, you'll be forced to repeat this error. But then let's talk about who is teaching killing, and who is teaching a time of the Lord's favor.

I-want2be-christian said:

quran can't be contain any errors for 2 reasons , the important one that God challenged all ppl to make other quran and thats what happend in Sana'a a group of ppl tried to make money by selling fake quran . And it was burned after the muslims found the errors in that quran when it was compared with the other quran . If you add or edit in quran . It will be so easy to find . Because alot of muslims save all quran in thier mind and heart . Even the young muslims of 12 and 11 years old the learn quran and can read it with a closed eye

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Again, another tale that is readily duplicated in the tales of the Septuagint, the Massorah, and the New Testament Scriptures under Charlemagne.

They're tales. They're fables. They're not real.

A hundred years ago my ancestors would have uniformly pointed you to the King James Scriptures as sacrosanct, much as you've pointed to the quran. So if you're really interested, there are certainly people who think this about the Holy Bible. I could point you to their sects. But neither the larger part of Islam nor the smaller part of Christianity is being truthful.

The texts were not burned, btw. They were stored in a graveyard for sacred texts. So you're saying that the adults of Islam 1500 years ago were unable to distinguish texts so well as the children of Islam, today? Why would the people so close to the Prophet be unable to tell what he had said?

sjdean said:

But guys, take an extreme example. Someone who is both deaf and blind. How do you evengelise to them. You can't show them a Bible, you can't read the Bible to them.

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One very important thing that you are failing to understand and that is nothing is impossible with God. No matter how you try to rationalize within your own thought process the possibilities and impossibilities of this issue God has already made a way through His knowledge, wisdom and understanding of how these people are to be reached.

A perfect example of this would be Helen Keller. She was both blind and deaf but through her teacher learned about Jesus.

Always remember it is not what you see on the outside that is spiritual but what is within. Every person is born with a desire to know their creator. Just because you can't see or hear doesn't mean that you are brain dead and don't have the ability of thought process.

Finally there is no extreme circumstances with God only with man.