What is a cult?

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mannysee

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I would have to agree with AskMrR's response.
I think his criteria list is from Margaret Singer?

Cults do not have to be religious in nature.
You can have a 'cultic' relationship, say, between two people going on.

Have you ever hear the term "battered wife syndrome"?
The relationship going on there could be termed 'cultic'.

The cultic environment is one where a pattern of manipulation, deception, thought stopping and abuse (mental and/or physical) is present.

Here is one more list to think about:-

1. There is a unhealthy control of communication within the group.
e.g. what you can read, who you can talk to, what you can say.

2. A group language exists i.e. those outside the group haven't got a clue what the member is talking about. They speak in 'cultese'.

3. You have to find the truth of what the leader/system teaches, whether it is true to you or not.

4. There is an extremely high demand for confessional practices within the group. These can be one to one, or one to a number of persons.
Even if you cannot find anything to confess, you still have to confess to what the leader is accusing you of.

5. Everyday events come to be seen as a result of the leader's workings, rather than having other, more sensible, explanations.

6. If you leave the group or relationship, bad things are going to happen to you.

7. Those who are outside the group are seen as inferior, and not to be associated with.
 
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2ducklow

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I would have to agree with AskMrR's response.
I think his criteria list is from Margaret Singer?

Cults do not have to be religious in nature.
You can have a 'cultic' relationship, say, between two people going on.

Have you ever hear the term "battered wife syndrome"?
The relationship going on there could be termed 'cultic'.

The cultic environment is one where a pattern of manipulation, deception, thought stopping and abuse (mental and/or physical) is present.

Here is one more list to think about:-

1. There is a unhealthy control of communication within the group.
e.g. what you can read, who you can talk to, what you can say.

2. A group language exists i.e. those outside the group haven't got a clue what the member is talking about. They speak in 'cultese'.
Like 3 are one, God is a nature, man is a nature, list 3 gods and say they have one god. say something in the image of something is the thing it is in the image of, etc. Invent terms that have no meaning like person of god. or just terms peculiar to them like triune god, incarnation, one substance (homoousia) but never say what that one substance is course your salvation depends on believing it.
mannesee said:
3. You have to find the truth of what the leader/system teaches, whether it is true to you or not.

4. There is an extremely high demand for confessional practices within the group. These can be one to one, or one to a number of persons.
Like confessing to a priest.
mann said:
Even if you cannot find anything to confess, you still have to confess to what the leader is accusing you of.

5. Everyday events come to be seen as a result of the leader's workings, rather than having other, more sensible, explanations.

6. If you leave the group or relationship, bad things are going to happen to you.
L:ke if you leave the catholic church you are unsaved cause salvation is only in the catholic church.
mann said:
7. Those who are outside the group are seen as inferior, and not to be associated with.
like all non catholics are heretics according to catholics.
 
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Codger

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According to the late Walter Martin the main underlying doctrinal factor common to all cults is they do not believe that Jesus is God. Theoretically, this destroys the main piller of God's plan of salvation. Thus there is no salvation possible.

If you believe this lie then it is very probable that you will have many other Biblical distortions as well.
 
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scriptures

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The cultic environment is one where a pattern of manipulation, deception, thought stopping and abuse (mental and/or physical) is present.

Here is one more list to think about:-

1. There is a unhealthy control of communication within the group.
e.g. what you can read, who you can talk to, what you can say.

2. A group language exists i.e. those outside the group haven't got a clue what the member is talking about. They speak in 'cultese'.

3. You have to find the truth of what the leader/system teaches, whether it is true to you or not.

4. There is an extremely high demand for confessional practices within the group. These can be one to one, or one to a number of persons.
Even if you cannot find anything to confess, you still have to confess to what the leader is accusing you of.

5. Everyday events come to be seen as a result of the leader's workings, rather than having other, more sensible, explanations.

6. If you leave the group or relationship, bad things are going to happen to you.

7. Those who are outside the group are seen as inferior, and not to be associated with.

If these are your critiria for a cult, then I am right in saying Trinity is a cult:thumbsup:
 
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marcusampe

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Dr. Charles Braden, former professor at Northwestern University, provides this definition: "By the term cult I mean nothing derogatory to any group so classified. A cult, as I define it, is any religious group which differs significantly in some one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as the normative expressions of religion in our total culture"(These Also Believe, New York, Macmillan, 1951, p. xii.)

Based on this definition, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians (whose beliefs are parallel with the JWs), Christian Science, Spiritism, New Age, Mormons, etc. are cults, as their beliefs diverge considerably from orthodox Christianity as summarised in, say, The Nicene Creed.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]a useful checklist to determine if a group exhibits cult-like characteristics:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
The Christadelphians (Cd) have no leader at all and all the ecclesia's are totally free. all members can also freely express their opinion.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]2.‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
No such thing exist by the Christadelphians. Questions may be asked and it will even be encouraged to examine the Scriptures and to ask questions about it.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
There are no repetitive songs or text said. Christadelphians have nothing of "speaking in tongues" which is more for the Pentecostals. (Would you consider them than as a cult or sect?) Every Cd is free to choose what he want to do in and for the community.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]4. ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Cd have no leader and no hierarchy.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). Or the group denies the central doctrines of Christianity: the Trinity (One God, three Persons), the deity of Christ as the second person of the Trinity, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Cd do not think any body more special to the other. Also about being able to be chosen we leave it to God. He is the one who decide who is going to enter in the Kingdom. It is not up to people to judge. Jesus shall be the Judge in name of His Father. The General Doctrines of Christianity laid up by Trinitarians? By following Jesus Christ you become a Christian. According to this saying a lot of Christians are excluded from Christianity. How would you call those (real) followers of Christ?

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Most Christians would look against non-Christians as heathen. Certain denominations in Christianity think that people from other denomination shall not be able to enter the Kingdom. Lots of them look down at other groups.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations)+.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Like I said, by the Cd there is nobody declared thé leader or infallible. By the Catholics the Pope is considered unfailing in belief matters. Every body of the Catholic faith should follow him.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviours or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Nothing unethical is permitted by the Cd and I am sure also not by the JW and Church of God or Abrahamic Faith.


[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
In the Cd families every body is free to choose which way they go or want to take. Even when they go to other churches they are still welcome at Cd meetings and other family members may meet them.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]11. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Today the problem is more that lots of people are concerned to keep up their living. But churchwork has to be done to. We have to spread the Good News. That was one of the tasks given by Jesus.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]12. The group is preoccupied with making money. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Lots of Trinitarian Churches did everything to fill their tills. Several Non-Trinitarian churches leave their members totally free to decide what they want to give to the working of the church, and in that instance it is to the local ecclesia and missionary fields. By the Cd their is no committee which requests a certain contribution per year.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
By JW they have to account for a certain hours perhaps, but this is not general for the non-trinitarian churches. By the Cd everybody is free to choose what and how much they do.

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Is it not logic that you ask your church members to be more familiar with the other church members? Is not one of the 'rules' in Christianity to become "brothers and sisters in Jesus"? That is exactly what Christadelphians are: Brothers and sisters in Jesus. But they are not required to socialize only with their own members. How could they otherwise convert other people? All Cd are free to go to movies, theatres, disco's and so further. The only restrictions are that they should be careful that they do not something against the will of God. (So going to a sex theatre would not be in line.)

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]15. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] AMR[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
When it would be like that they have a psychological problem. But on the other hand their are also a lot of Catholics, Pentecostals, Methodists, etc who think they can not be different than the denomination their in. They have many difficulties to face up or to accept other thinkings than their own denomination. Some of them their is no way of salvation out of their denomination. Does it make them cults? I do not think so.
By the JW I think it is very difficult to enter the group, but it is so easy to leave. You just can say you fornicated and you are excluded, and I think you can be put aside for lesser things.
By the Cd everybody is free to become a member, but then they have to accept the points of believes, but is that not by any denomination? They only should be able to be baptised in that faith if they believe also in that faith.
To leave the Cd ecclesia everybody is free. It would be their choice and not ours. And yes when somebody does something very bad he or she shall be pointed out to the facts he or she has done wrong. But we should be forgiving, so when somebody repents he or she shall be able to break the bread with us.

Out off all the above I do hope you shall be able to see that Christadelphians are no cult or sect.[/FONT]
 
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Albion

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The meanings of words change with the passing years.

At one time, a cult was defined as any organized system of religion. In the Middle Ages, the word was used with affection because it meant, more or less, one's religious POV.

More recently, AND IN THE MINDS OF SOCIOLOGISTS, PSYCHOLOGISTS and others concerned with social issues, self-esteem, crowd behavior, and etc. the word came to represent much of what has already been explained--mind control by the leader, a herd mentality, sensory deprivation, and so on. Almost ANY church could be that way and it would have liittle to do with theology.

BUT if we speak THEOLOGICALLY, as almost all the cult-watching organizations, books, and lecturers, who are in religious studies as opposed to sociology and psychology, do...

...there is a remarkably standard profile of a cult that is accepted across the board with few exceptions. Since this is a religious forum, this ought to interest us more than some of the other uses of the word, I'd think.

1. Acceptance of some OTHER writing, some sacred scripture, as on the par with or an addition to the Bible. This is not a matter of interpreting the Bible but of actual supplemental materials.

2. Denial of the nature of God. This would include denial of the Trinity and/or denial of the deity of Jesus Christ.

3. Denial of the nature of Man. The most usual form denies Man's immortal soul, holding that it either dies at physical death to be reborn at God's call later on or else holds that God will annihilate the wicked at some time in the future.
 
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marcusampe

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k2svpeter,

I said that the Christadelphian beliefs were parallel to the JWs. Your response was:

An assertion proves nothing. Please show me that the Christadelphian beliefs that I posted here are not similar to the JWs.?
In case you haven't seen them, these are Christadelphian beliefs from a Christadelphian website:

I don't have the time at the moment to show that these are essentially the same as the JWs. I'll do that in the next day or so. Work is calling.

You seem to find it disturbing that certain believes which you can find by the JW are able to be found by others, like the Cd. But would you not find it logical when people use the same books to build up their believes, that they shall have similar points of believe?

You bring on

  1. The Bible is God's word and the only message from him. It is without error, except for copying and translation errors. (2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1. See also: The Bible, Why I Believe the Bible, and Alleged Biblical Errors.)
    But is this not something most Christians claim: that God is the Author of the Holy Scriptures?
  2. There is only one God - the Father. The Holy Spirit is God's power. (John 17:3, Luke 1:35, Deuteronomy 6:4. See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity.)
    That Cd find that there is only One God is also found by other non-Trinitarian Christians, which is logic that you find that then also by JW.
    You have reason to say that Trinitarians in fact do not believe in Only One God, because they really have three Gods: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. God is a Spirit and Jesus is a man, who may call himself the mediator. But God asks us to honour only One God. (Exodus 20:4,5; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 2:5; Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:6)
    JW got the fact that the Holy Ghost is the Power of God from the Bible. We use the same Books and come to the same conclusion, because we believe that the Bible is the Word of God which we have to follow.
  3. Jesus is the Son of God, and also the son of a human being, his mother Mary, so making him Son of Man. Jesus was tempted just like us because of this. But Jesus was not just a great man, he was the Son of the Most High God, and was perfect. (Luke 1:30-31, John 3:18.See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity)
    Also hear it says clearly what is written in several passages in the Bible. On many occasions God declarered "This is my Son". The JW and Cd are both Bible Students or Bible Researchers, and like other Bible Students they keep to the writings in their Holy Books = the Holy Scriptures.
    Cd give more attention to the man Jesus than the JW. There is a big difference with JW in our belief that Jesus only came to this world when he was placed by his Father in the womb of Mary, who was a virgin. The above quote wants to say that Jesus was more than special. Being directly placed by God on this world he may call himself also the most beloved only begotten son of God. (Mt 3:17; Jo 3:16)
  4. Man is mortal, having no existence when dead. (Psalm 6:5, Isaiah 38:18, Acts 2:29,34)
    Cd take the Scriptures, and yes for this the JW say the same, like the Nazarene Friends, Church of God, and others.
    The Bible is also very clear that the dead ones do not have a feeling or anything else. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, Psalm 164:4) For men it is the same as for animals (Eccl. 3:19,20)
  5. By living a sinless life, ending with his sacrificial death by crucifixion, Jesus has opened the way of salvation from death. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians15: 20-23, Galatians 3:27-29)
    Catholics think this as well. Should we then say that they think the same as JW? On that part yes. But on a lot of other things they think totally different.
    So yes, we think that by being put on a wooden stake, Jesus opened up the gates to salvation. And I think that is one of the main points all Christians believe.;)
  6. Belief and baptism are essential steps to salvation. (Mark 16:16. See also Baptism and Salvation.)
    This is also a part which you not only can find by JW and Cd. Catholics even think their little baby shall not go to heaven when they are not baptised. Cd and Baptists accept that those who were to young to know about God and about Jesus do not particularly have to be lost. We accept that it is up to God to decide who shall be saved. (This is totally different to JW, who think that only Jehovah Witnesses can be accepted in the Kingdom of God)
    Do Lutherans, Calvinists, Reformed, Pentecostals think that non-baptised people and those who do not believe what they believe, so those who are not in their denomination, that they shall be saved? Or do they not think they have the only truth?
  7. God raised Jesus from death. Jesus is currently in Heaven, on God's right hand. He will one day return. (Acts 10:40, Romans 8:34, Acts 1:11)
    I sincerely hope that more Christians do believe this. So no wonder that on this aspect Cd once more have to say the same thing as JW.
    I do agree that those persons who say that Jesus is God shall have to find it difficult that this one person (Jesus/Yeshua) can sit next to the other person, the only One God, Elohim (Jehovah/Yahweh).
    In the resurrection of Christ we have the example of what can happen to us. Jesus has become the New Adam, the first New born. We are looking forward to Jesus his return (which the JW think already happened) and the resurrection of the dead, plus the approbation to enter a new life, in the Kingdom of God.
    that Jesus will one day return is clearly a big difference whit what JW think. And I also hope Catholics, Calvinist, Lutherans, etc. shall look forward to this return of Christ.
  8. When Jesus returns, he will raise his "sleeping" followers from death and grant immortality to the faithful who have tried to live by God's precepts. (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
    Once more a big difference with what JW believe. For them Christ Jesus already governs this world since he came back in 1914. For Cd Jesus did not return yet, but when he shall come back he shall see the dead coming to live again to be judged. It shall be what many Christians call the Last Judgement.
    The world shall not be able to escape Armageddon (Harmagedon) after which the ones who were dead shall be brought back to live to be judged. Jesus is not judging everybody at the day when he or she dies. Also when a person dies he or she receives already the penalty for their sins. (Ro 6:23)
    Dead shall be abolished and those who hoped and look up for God shall be saved. (Isaiah 25:8-9)
  9. His followers will help him to rule, bringing justice, righteousness and peace to the whole world - the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:23-26)
    When there is a Kingdom, you shall have a King. This King is Jesus Christ, Saviour and Messiah. God is a God of order who wants that everything is neatly organised. It is possible that the coming Kingdom shall have persons next to the King to govern it. (1 Corinthians 14: 33,40, Lucas 22:29,30) But already from the early years of the new era we had followers of Christ who were trying to bring peace and righteousness. Look at the apostles and those people who are called saints by many. We do believe that God has given powers to certain people to do different sorts of jobs. He also takes care of people who can bring the Good News to others. In certain denominations they are called pastor, vicar, minister, parson, priest, etc.) Cd do believe in the gifts of persons and that God can provide an ecclesia with the right people. (1 Corinthians 12: 18, 28) but we do not have priest or persons who are mightier then others. For us there is no Pope (like by the Catholics) or an organisation who is infallible.
    I do not see how you can think we Cd say or think the same as the JW on this point. Because I assume you pinpoint to the JW Brooklyn Society or Organisation Bureau and the rulership of the 144.000.
 
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F

freeport

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What is a cult?

1. A religion or a sect considered extremist or false.
2. An obsessive devotion to a person or principle.

In that case anthing obsessive and false is a cult, correct me if I am wrong.


A "cult" does not need to be "considered" to be extremist or false... true cults *are* false. "Extremist" is a variable word, one can be extremely good, so that does not define it... and cults can be - and are - mundanely evil. Evil is, by definition, truly mundane.

God is great, evil is nothing.


2. False.


Cults, in a nutshell, are shared delusions, or lies.


They have a tendency to embrace some manner of tyranny, for tyranny is not of God, but of the Lie, the Anti-Christ, everything which is "not of God"...


They tend to "center around one person", but that is the nature of tyranny. God centers salvation around all people being magnanimous.
 
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Albion

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They may substitute something for the Bible as it's usually known.

They do not have to vest all power in a single figure, but in their sect, yes.

They may deny the nature of God or man or both.
Otherwise, the differences between two cults could be quite significant.
 
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The Mighty Sword

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What is a cult?

Good question, in society since "religion " began, a cult usually consists of a group on people mainly men who took and idea or a doctrine put a spin on it such as their own scriptures to accomodate their ideas on a new religion structured on The Truth, twisting words around and enforcing the new religion, join or die. Tithe or die. And used an ancient form of rites and utilized it to their convinience calling it dogma or a canon, But there is always the original way it was intended to be followed, and cults will add there own spin adding doctrine mixed in with paganism thus taking away form it's original message usually Holy and the cult will call itself holy. There are ancient cults that go back to the time of the Apostles and would like for the Elect to buy into their false doctrine and some will and some won't, But the truth will always emerge victorious. A good way to find out about cults is to Google Cult watch or C.A.R.M. you might just be surprised who is in there.

Have a blessed day.
 
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Godfixated

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Here is a useful checklist to determine if a group exhibits cult-like characteristics:


3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).


AMR

What is so "mind-altering" about Speaking in Tongues. I always get a kick out of this. Speaking in Tongues is perfect prayer that we share with God. It's that simple. Speaking in Tongues was an expected part of being born again in the first century church. In Acts 8, the Samarians did not manifest Speaking in Tongues, so Peter and John had to go down there and make sure they did. Over the years it seems that Christian have just become so lazy and fearful of Speaking in Tongues that it is considered "fringe." I suggest Christians should read 1 Corinthians 13-14.
 
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Albion

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What is so "mind-altering" about Speaking in Tongues. I always get a kick out of this. Speaking in Tongues is perfect prayer that we share with God. It's that simple. Speaking in Tongues was an expected part of being born again in the first century church. In Acts 8, the Samarians did not manifest Speaking in Tongues, so Peter and John had to go down there and make sure they did. Over the years it seems that Christian have just become so lazy and fearful of Speaking in Tongues that it is considered "fringe." I suggest Christians should read 1 Corinthians 13-14.

While I consider the modern tongues-speaking phenomenon to be completely bogus, I agree with you that Mr. Religion's "take" on the bigger subject, cults, was off the mark. For one thing, he attempted to characterize behavior that might be exhibited by cults rather than define what a cult is. Non-cults exhibiting "cult-LIKE" characteristics is not the issue.
 
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OzSpen

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Godfixated,
What is so "mind-altering" about Speaking in Tongues. I always get a kick out of this. Speaking in Tongues is perfect prayer that we share with God. It's that simple. Speaking in Tongues was an expected part of being born again in the first century church. In Acts 8, the Samarians did not manifest Speaking in Tongues, so Peter and John had to go down there and make sure they did. Over the years it seems that Christian have just become so lazy and fearful of Speaking in Tongues that it is considered "fringe." I suggest Christians should read 1 Corinthians 13-14.
I enthusiastically support what you have written in opposing “Ask Mr. Religion’s” view on the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues is a genuine, continuing biblical ministry.

What happened on the day of Pentecost cannot be identified with the "tongues" of I Cor. 12:11, 30; 14:2, 4, 13, 19, 27 where the "tongue" either had to be interpreted (12:11, 30; 14:13, 27) or was unknown language, spoken to God for personal edification (14:2, 4). However, I Cor. 13:1 identifies tongues with the languages of men (understandable human languages) and the languages of angels (presumably the communication language of the angels in heaven).

For me, the definitive moment in my interpretation of these sometimes difficult verses came when I studied the Greek language of I Cor. 12:29-30 which uses the Greek negative mē, thus requiring that a negative answer be given to the question, "Do all speak in tongues?" which is confirmed by the NASB translation: "All do not speak with tongues, do they?"

Since the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available to all believers, I Cor. 12:30 confirms that tongues cannot be the initial physical evidence for all believers, since tongues is not given to all.

Perhaps the reply could be: I Corinthians 12-14 must be taken as a whole and refers to the use of tongues in the corporate gathering of the church and so refers to the gift of tongues requiring the accompanying gift of interpretation. Therefore, it is correct to say that not all believers are given the gift of tongues requiring interpretation for exercise in the gathering of the body.

This is a valid objection that I accepted for many years. However, a closer examination of the context reveals the following:

a. I Cor. 14:2, 4 refers to tongues for personal edification and not requiring interpretation -- therefore it is not for use in the church. This seems to be what Paul is referring to when he says, "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all" (I Cor. 14:18). In the church, he prefers intelligibility: "I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue" (14:19)

b. I Cor. 14:14-18 contrasts speaking and singing "with the spirit" (tongues on the basis of v. 14) and praying with the mind. Therefore, throughout I Cor. 12-14, there seems to be an interchange of tongues (spiritual language or ecstatic utterance) as a language spoken to God for personal edification and tongues requiring interpretation for the edification of the church.

Therefore, my conclusion is that I Cor. 12:28, 30 is referring to both kinds of tongues, which are not given to all believers. Why? Because "one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" (I Cor. 12:11 NASB). I Cor. 12:14 emphasises: "For the body is not one member, but many." Therefore, I do not find it surprising that tongues is restricted to some believers by the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit.

This has led charismatic leader and pastor of a Vineyard church (USA), George Mallone, to state: "Beyond doubt, one of the greatest theological tragedies to befall the church is the suggestion that tongues is a visible sign of having been baptized or filled with the Spirit" (Mallone, G. 1983, Those Controversial Gifts, InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, Illinois, p. 90).

Experience is never the way to judge whether or not a doctrine is correct. That must come from a solid historical-grammatical interpretation of the Bible. However, my experience and that of others is that, even though one speaks in tongues, this does not mean one is always controlled by the Spirit (and surely that is one meaning of the filling/baptism of the Holy Spirit). I have spoken in tongues in my prayer time with the Lord, but later in the day have been angry with my children, told a lie, or slandered a brother. So, speaking in tongues is no guarantee for me that I am always dominated by the Spirit of God.

On the other hand, I know people who do not speak in tongues (my wife is one example) whose lives are a constant testimony to submission to Jesus Christ and control by the Holy Spirit.

A consistent interpretation of the relevant Scriptures reveals that tongues cannot be available to every Christian as the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why? It is because:

1. Not all will speak in tongues (I Cor. 12:30), and
2. Such a doctrine usurps the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, based on the following Scriptures:
"We have different gifts according to the grace given us" (Rom. 12:6a).
"All these [gifts] are the work of the one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines" (I Cor. 12:11).
Hebrews 2:4 speaks of "gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

I believe it grieves the Holy Spirit and is a promotion of doctrinal error when denominations, Christian leaders, and individual believers go contrary to the Bible's teaching on the gift of tongues.

Sincerely, Spencer
 
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OzSpen

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Albion,
While I consider the modern tongues-speaking phenomenon to be completely bogus, I agree with you that Mr. Religion's "take" on the bigger subject, cults, was off the mark. For one thing, he attempted to characterize behavior that might be exhibited by cults rather than define what a cult is. Non-cults exhibiting "cult-LIKE" characteristics is not the issue.
While I agree that there are some in the "modern tongues-speaking phenomenon" who may give "bogus" manifestations, I cannot agree with any statement that this affirms that all of modern tongue speaking is bogus. I have been in gatherings where God ministered to me through tongues and interpretation.

Paul's instruction to the Corinthians (and to us by extension) was: "Now I want you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. . . Thus tongues are a sign not to believers but for unbelievers. . . " (I Cor. 14:5, 22 ESV).

What is happening today in many pentecostal-charismatic churches, in my view, is a failure to follow the teaching of 1 Cor. 12-14, and especially, "But all things should be done decently and in order" (I Cor. 14:40 ESV). Of course there may be "fake" manifestations but we can get the same in biblical teaching/preaching, but that latter does not make all biblical teaching/preaching illegitimate -- any more than one faulty General Motors vehicle makes all of them suspect.

The traditional evangelical, charismatic and pentecostal churches, in my view, violate core functioning when the church gathers: "When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up" (I Cor. 14:26 ESV).

We have become so traditional in so much one-way communication from the pulpit, that the manifestation of spiritual gifts by all believers (potentially) when the church gathers, is not in the minds of many church leaders.

Heirarchy has replaced every-member functioning. When people come to the church gathering with an expectation of receiving from God and ministering for God, we would get back to biblical functioning as in 14:26.

Sincerely, Spencer
 
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OzSpen

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SoulSurfer,
Who gets to determine if it's false?
That’s one of the great benefits for those of us who accept the Scriptures in the original manuscripts as the infallible word of God. At least we have a reasonably standard base (after answering textual questions) from which to determine the true vs. the false. There may be disagreements over etymology and some grammatical constructions, but there is at least a base from which to operate and determine the true from the false.


However, this will not eliminate challenges to interpretation (e.g. cessationism vs continuationism in the gifts of the Spirit; believers’ vs. infant baptism; Calvinism vs. Arminianism, etc.)


Sincerely,
Spencer
 
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M

mannysee

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I still think that educating people about cult structure/effects upon members is far more important than defining a cult simply by its theology.
i.e. discussing the sociological and psychological aspects as this is what causes the damage to group members.

Having been a group member for 7 years of what is considered in the U.S. as manipulative at best, and a cult at worst. I won't be naming the group here though.

So a short list of the harmful practices I experienced, which in total had the effect of mental abuse and took a few years to recover from:-

- twisting of the scriptures to force authority over members time and minds
- erosion over time of friendships outside the group
- expressing views differing from scriptures being twisted resulting in degrees of shunning
- eroding of individual personality and interests
- being molded mentally into the leader's speech patterns
- slow loss of individual dress, adopting group ideal dress
- being advised to cut off academic studies and give more time to group
- prolonged aural sensation bombardment in worship and daily group prayer attendance > trance-like state
- constant lack of sleep due to must-be-at group activites after work

long term effects upon leaving group:-
- numbness in mind
- prolonged spaced-out periods
- sudden crying periods
- lack of interest in everyday activites/common tasks
- unable to concentrate for long periods while reading
- shunning by former friends
and many other harmful effects
 
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Son of Israel

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I still think that educating people about cult structure/effects upon members is far more important than defining a cult simply by its theology.
i.e. discussing the sociological and psychological aspects as this is what causes the damage to group members.

Having been a group member for 7 years of what is considered in the U.S. as manipulative at best, and a cult at worst. I won't be naming the group here though.

So a short list of the harmful practices I experienced, which in total had the effect of mental abuse and took a few years to recover from:-

- twisting of the scriptures to force authority over members time and minds
- erosion over time of friendships outside the group
- expressing views differing from scriptures being twisted resulting in degrees of shunning
- eroding of individual personality and interests
- being molded mentally into the leader's speech patterns
- slow loss of individual dress, adopting group ideal dress
- being advised to cut off academic studies and give more time to group
- prolonged aural sensation bombardment in worship and daily group prayer attendance > trance-like state
- constant lack of sleep due to must-be-at group activites after work

long term effects upon leaving group:-
- numbness in mind
- prolonged spaced-out periods
- sudden crying periods
- lack of interest in everyday activites/common tasks
- unable to concentrate for long periods while reading
- shunning by former friends
and many other harmful effects

Yes, a very important subject Manny. I understand what you've been through. (Thank you for bringing up the important things you do in your posts!)
This planet is rampant with Life-stealing cults.

(Mat 20:16) ... for many be called, but few chosen.
(Mat 7:13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Most all Christians in the churches are called. But very few are "Chosen".
But am I Chosen?
It is up to me to find out.

The "Christian" cults are most disturbing to me, in that they convert a desirous seeker of Christ into a clone of their own founder or school of theology.
A "cult" will very well be the broad road to destruction for many.
That would be any "church" sytem that is formed around the teachings of a man or a woman, and recommends/coerces or requires its members to follow their edicts, guides, creeds and/or publicated books and doctrines.
Especially cultish are those "persons" who feel that if you don't belong to their church or believe as they do, that person is lost.
It is also very "cultish" to belong to a religion just because that is where your family goes to church at.

You will know you are in a cult by some very simple tests, just to name a few...

Foremost, the "church" you attend, was it founded upon a man or woman's teaching? And do you know this person's name?

Does the title of your church use a man's name in it other than the Name of Jesus?

Other than a simple Bible, does your church have or recommend "books" or "marginal-teaching-Bibles" that "explain" things to you?

Do you accept the church's rationale or a leader's word on a scripture, even though it is the opposite of what the scripture seems to say?

Can you be easily identified to a religion because of the style of the building?

Can you be easily identified to a church because of the day they worship?

Does the way you preach identify you with a specific "Christian" religion soon after opening your mouth?

Can you be identified with a religion because of your attire while walking down a street?

Is your religion led by others who wear out of the ordinary attire in their worship service?

In your worship service, are their protocols or rites performed other than baptism by water and the breaking of bread and drinking of wine?

In your worship service, is water baptism or breaking of bread and drinking of wine "optional" or not observed at all?

Does your religion employ others to lead them and they speak in a differant language than you can understand?

Does your religion use any words or terms in their worship and teachings that aren't found in the Bible?

Does your church's religion throw the word "truth" out there in reference to itself?

If the Lord reveals what you know to be truth and it doesn't agree with your church doctrine, might you be given the right foot of dis-fellowship because of it?

Does your religion claim that some classes of people are more "special" or "chosen" or "elect" than another class of people because of their religion or ancestry?

Does your religion "futurize" events of God?

Most importantly, is your religion founded upon any other concept other than Salvation in Jesus Christ?

Does your religion tell you that Jesus Christ has not fulfilled and abolished the O.T. Law of Moses?

Does your religion worship any other God but the One True God of Israel?

Does your religion use a "word" or a "term" or an "explanation" describing God other than a word you would find in the Bible?

If so, you are in a cult and may want to seriously consider what you are spending your time at.

(Luk 1:68) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Son of Israel
 
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Albion

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The "Christian" cults are most disturbing to me, in that they convert a desirous seeker of Christ into a clone of their own founder or school of theology.
A "cult" will very well be the broad road to destruction for many.

That would be any "church" sytem that is formed around the teachings of a man or a woman, and recommends/coerces or requires its members to follow their edicts, guides, creeds and/or publicated books and doctrines.

Especially cultish are those "persons" who feel that if you don't belong to their church or believe as they do, that person is lost.

It is also very "cultish" to belong to a religion just because that is where your family goes to church at.

You will know you are in a cult by some very simple tests, just to name a few...

Foremost, the "church" you attend, was it founded upon a man or woman's teaching? And do you know this person's name?

Does the title of your church use a man's name in it other than the Name of Jesus?

Other than a simple Bible, does your church have or recommend "books" or "marginal-teaching-Bibles" that "explain" things to you?

Do you accept the church's rationale or a leader's word on a scripture, even though it is the opposite of what the scripture seems to say?

Can you be easily identified to a religion because of the style of the building?

Can you be easily identified to a church because of the day they worship?

Does the way you preach identify you with a specific "Christian" religion soon after opening your mouth?

Can you be identified with a religion because of your attire while walking down a street?

Is your religion led by others who wear out of the ordinary attire in their worship service?

In your worship service, are their protocols or rites performed other than baptism by water and the breaking of bread and drinking of wine?

In your worship service, is water baptism or breaking of bread and drinking of wine "optional" or not observed at all?

Does your religion employ others to lead them and they speak in a differant language than you can understand?

Does your religion use any words or terms in their worship and teachings that aren't found in the Bible?

Does your church's religion throw the word "truth" out there in reference to itself?

If the Lord reveals what you know to be truth and it doesn't agree with your church doctrine, might you be given the right foot of dis-fellowship because of it?

Does your religion claim that some classes of people are more "special" or "chosen" or "elect" than another class of people because of their religion or ancestry?

Does your religion "futurize" events of God?

Most importantly, is your religion founded upon any other concept other than Salvation in Jesus Christ?

Does your religion tell you that Jesus Christ has not fulfilled and abolished the O.T. Law of Moses?

Does your religion worship any other God but the One True God of Israel?

Does your religion use a "word" or a "term" or an "explanation" describing God other than a word you would find in the Bible?

If so, you are in a cult and may want to seriously consider what you are spending your time at.

Only the two items I highlighted in blue would be indicators of a cult. Most of the others are not even close to being definers or even characteristics of a "cult." Lutherans are not in a cult. Pentecostal Christians (some of whom dress distinctively) are not in a cult. And for sure we aren't able to identify a cult by the shape of the building! ;)
 
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