Gates of hell shall not prevail--looking at a different aspect

tall73 said:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This Scripture is a key one for Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant debates. I wanted to focus on just one aspect of it for this thread, specifically the phrase about the gates of hell.

The terms rock, etc. have been analyzed a lot in various threads, for obvious reasons. But what do you think of the second clause?

Specifically, gates are defensive measures. If the gates are not prevailing, is this not indicative of not withstanding an assault? This assault seems to be from Christ's church.

Is this stating that the church will never be overcome, or that hell shall certainly fall to the church?

And are the two the same in every respect?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Good question. Gates are defensive, as you say.

To me, this statement says that it is evil which is on the defensive, and that it will not succeed in defending against God's will. and, as you rightly say, hell will fall. Whether that is earthly hell or an eternal version is up to individual interpretation.

It means that the forces of darkness will never prevail over Christ's Church. As an Orthodox Christian, this means to me that the first Church that Christ Himself established is still around, and that darkness never prevailed over the Church such that any reformation or anything like that would be necessary.

Flame away...

It means the Church will never die.

Hell = Grave

SeraphimSarov said:

It means that the forces of darkness will never prevail over Christ's Church.

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Indeed so, but that statement suggests that good is defending, and evil attacking. The Lord seems to have it the other way round.

As an Orthodox Christian, this means to me that the first Church that Christ Himself established is still around, and that darkness never prevailed over the Church such that any reformation or anything like that would be necessary.

Flame away...

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That is a whole other discussion.

Certainly Christ's church must endure forever, but where that church is to be found is a matter of opinion, and of debate. But in this place, not of division, I hope. I think the best any of us can do is accept that in the Lord's house are many mansions, some of them frankly weird, and leave it to his grace.

Gary51 said:

It means the Church will never die.

Hell = Grave

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That is certainly part of it, but I think not the whole story. I think it is broader than saying the Church will never die.

Catherineanne said:

Indeed so, but that statement suggests that good is defending, and evil attacking. The Lord seems to have it the other way round.

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I was not meaning to make that suggestion. However, I would definitely say the Church is under constant attack.

Flame away... (that's my signature for this forum and not directed at you specifically )

Rob Bell wrote in "Velvet Elvis" that the place where Jesus said this was a place known as "The Gates of Hell", where pagans thought all sorts of gods/demons came from (think along the lines of Pan, the half-goat-half-man god). So, not only do we have the defensive nature of gates, but Jesus is saying "even in this seemingly God-forsaken place that no 'good' Jew should be in, my kingdom will prevail."

And indeed, how can Christ's kingdom prevail in places like that without evangelists on the offensive--meaning preaching the Word and taking the message of Jesus to them (as opposed to bringing back the Crusades).

tall73 said:

Specifically, gates are defensive measures.

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I don't think gates are necessarily defensive. If there are two it represents a choice. Do you follow the narrow path that leads to "The gate" or do you follow the broad path that leads to the wide gate of destruction? If you are following the right path, the wrong choice cannot prevail.

Gates are not only for defensive purposes, but also are to retain the inhabitants therein.

Mt. 16:18 ... and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


A prophecy:

Acts 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison (by the grandson of the Roman appointed Herod): but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

...

v10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

The gates in a literary sense represent the first in line of a force.
The gates of hell will never prevail tells us that the forces of Hell overall will never overcome us. In the end those same gates will eventually be locked.

NRB said:

The gates in a literary sense represent the first in line of a force.
The gates of hell will never prevail tells us that the forces of Hell overall will never overcome us. In the end those same gates will eventually be locked.

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Well, not exactly. Hell's gates are opened as Christ said. The inhabitants come out for judgment.

Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Then hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire.

v14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Then anyone who came out of hell and was judged and not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire.

v15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

To be in hell is to be under God’s wrath. The gates are opened on all the unsaved. Nothing will withstand or prevent God’s wrath on them. The gates are closed for all the saved though. In this case the gate will prevail and the saved will not experience God’s wrath.

Right at the beginning of the church age the church of Sardis (Rev 3) was already a dead church. The gates of Hell prevailed against it. The other 6 churches in Revelation were also warned so we know the gates of Hell will prevail against local churches. In fact we know that false prophets and gospels (Matt 24:24, 2 Tim 4:3) caused God’s final judgment to start with the church (I Peter 4:17) and they all will be destroyed for straying from the true gospel (Gal 1: 9) along with all the unbelievers even though they thought they were safe (Matt 7:22, 23, 15:8, Phil 3:18, I Thess 5:3…).

However, all true believers that God has saved are members of the eternal church (Matt 16,) which Christ has been building. God’s wrath will not come upon them because they have been given eternal life (John 10:28). This spiritual church will never end or be overcome. This is the house of God in which all true believers live forever (Ps 23:6, Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22). This eternal church is the only one the gates of hell shall not prevail against.

Rev. 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Standing Up said:

Rev. 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

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That's correct. The church of Sardis like every church had a congregation made up of wheat (saved) and tares (unsaved). The tares look just like the wheat but they are not. In the case of Sardis there were a few saved but that does not change the fact that God did away with the Church. God in his patience allowed this mixing to go on throughout the church age up to the tribulation where the believers finally realize what is happening and they leave to worship on their own. The final tribulation is a period of time in which God is seperating the wheat from the tares. He allows the apostasy of the church to get so bad as a final test and then He brings his judgement to the world starting with his house. These are the ones he weeps over. They should have known better than stray from his word but they did, they believed they were safe & secure so were not watching for his return and so they will be taken by surprise. Christ will come as a thief in the night because they are in spiritual darkness. Truly saved individuals will not be taken by surprise because they are in the light (1 Thess 5:4).

At the time of the rapture those who have heard the gospel for the first time and believe will be saved right in front of those in false gospels. Those practising false gospels were the first ones exposed to the
true gospel but they wound up changing doctrine to their own destruction (1 Thess 5:3, 2 Pet 3:16). This is what is meant by the last shall be first and the first shall be first (Matt 20:16).

This is very disturbing & sad thinking someone has perhaps committed a lifetime to the local church and many believe they are safe but the only church that will prevail is the eternal one made up of all those God saves. This is why everyone has to prayfully read the bible and seek true understanding and mercy from God while salvation is still avialable. We all want to be part of God's spiritual house. Where the gates of Hell will not prevail, thanks only to the love and faith of the Lord. We have to be careful not be blinded by doctrines of men no matter how nice and loving they may seem.

I've always understood it to be two primary things,

A) Evil will not be able to prevail against the Church, false doctrines, etc

&

B) Death is often spoke of as something that all pass through and the imagery of the words in Matthew paint a picture in my mind of "Gates", as in for one to enter into the realm or kingdom of the dead one must first die ( go through the gates of Hell ). Thinking of it this way indicates to me that the Church of Matthew's day would never go through the gates of death as in it would be immortal and remain until the Return of Christ. As clergy get old and die there remains in the Catholic and Orthodox Traditions a renewing of the Church via fresh blood.

In this statment Jesus made He was speaking of the grave. For the grave will never hold Christ down. For Christ rose victorious.