Good Works are Necessary

The works that are done in Christ is through His Spirit and not through mens flesh. For if a man is born again and belongs to Christ He will have good works for the only one that is Good lives in Him and urges Him on. Doing works according to the flesh are as scriptures says.. Filthy rags to God.. So therefore those whom belong to Christ will show the works of Christ for Jesus said that greater works than these shall they do.

jarrettcpr said:

I don't see disobedience as a disqualifier

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Now that is sad. God certainly does.

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hentenza said:

That's all that Abraham needed.

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but was it not his actions of offering up his son that proved his Faith?

Works completes the Faith.

We are called upon to complete our Faith and that involves doing Good works.

jarrettcpr said:

No, however it seems that you are adding we have to have good works to be justified.

I gave you that whole pile of Scripture that clearly says other wise. Only by faith apart from the law are we justified.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28)

God is the potter and we are the clay. He does the work. He choose and preordained us.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10)

God is sovereign, not us.

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Ahhh the classic Strawman. I am not saying we justify ourselves not in the least bit. Yes God is in total control but God wants us to love him and obey him through our own will.

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


He did not create Robots.

Frogster said:

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

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No agrument here

Frogster said:

Are you saying we are to be perfected by human effort?

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

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that passage is speaking of Works apart from Faith and I agree. Works of themselves without faith is worthless. No argument here.

But scriputure clearly states Works WITH your Faith makes your Faith complete and perfect.

.22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Hentenza said:

That's all that Abraham needed.

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Gen. 26:5 Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

This is the way Abraham walked.
Abraham's faith is what caused him to live that way.
That's what faith is. It's not just sitting around believing.
Faith results in action. No action, no faith.
Remember Abraham did not just believe in God; Abraham actually BELIEVED God. Ro. 4:3 Gal. 3:6 Ja. 2:23
Oh that we all would live the way Abraham did.

From my understanding, the only time Scripture mentions faith alone is when it say you arent saved by faith alone. That answers the question for me just fine.

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I think all probably agree that good works are, well, good.
And I think all agree that commandments are, well, commandments.

WHY we seek to fulfill the Great Commandment and Great Commission matters, IMHO. IF we are doing so because we see ourselves as the Savior (in addition or in lieu of Jesus), I can see some problem there.

The earlier point is very important, IMHO. The question is: FOR WHAT? Is OUR works the cause of our salvation/justification? In which case, the Savior is me and not Jesus (or - at most - it's a cooperative effort, a blend of His works and mine, a heresy). IMHO, good works are a mandated part of our Christian lives and thus a part of discipleship or sanctification in the narrow sense. Again, IF OUR good works are what saves us (justification in narrow sense) then there are billions of Saviors - of which Jesus would be (at most) one. IMHO, Jesus is the Savior and so I'm not. But that doesn't limit the divine mandate for MY works, it just means such doesn't make ME the Savior (even of me). The job is taken (Soli Deo Gloria). IMHO, Jesus is THE Savior - not me. Thus, it's HE and HIS works that save (in the sense of justification). My works are moot in THAT sense or else I would be the Savior, not Jesus. OUR works belong to our Christian lives, our lives of faith and obedience and love; they are a part of our discipleship as Christians.




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boswd said:

that passage is speaking of Works apart from Faith and I agree. Works of themselves without faith is worthless. No argument here.

But scriputure clearly states Works WITH your Faith makes your Faith complete and perfect.

.22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

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No,that passage speaks right to the heart of this subject.They began by faith.Notice verse 2 and the comparrison

.Paul did not want them to think their walk was works based.

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

We are to walk as Abraham did.

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

ThomasDa said:

Gen. 26:5 Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

This is the way Abraham walked.
Abraham's faith is what caused him to live that way.
That's what faith is. It's not just sitting around believing.
Faith results in action. No action, no faith.
Remember Abraham did not just believe in God; Abraham actually BELIEVED God. Ro. 4:3 Gal. 3:6 Ja. 2:23
Oh that we all would live the way Abraham did.

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Sure,God gives us commands and directions,but they are not all from the law of moses.

Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.


paraggello 3853
Definition:
1) to transmit a message along from one to another, to declare, announce
2) to command, order, charge


Abraham was justified before circumcision for a reason.(Rom 4)That was not a legalisitc system he lived under,comparred to Moses,who had a ministry of death and condemnation.(2 Cor 3).

Also for justification,only one thing is required,believe.

boswd said:

but was it not his actions of offering up his son that proved his Faith?

Works completes the Faith.

We are called upon to complete our Faith and that involves doing Good works.

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Romans 4:4-5
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The problem is the belief that works save. They do not. Works are done from salvation not for salvation.

Hentenza said:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The problem is the belief that works save. They do not. Works are done from salvation not for salvation.

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No one is saying that and nobody teaches that. That's the strawman argument. the passages everyone refers to in Romans is works apart from Faith and in that ALL Christians agree you need the Faith First and Foremost.But then, here's the kicker, you have to LIVE the Faith.

boswd said:

No one is saying that and nobody teaches that. That's the strawman argument. the passages everyone refers to in Romans is works apart from Faith and in that ALL Christians agree you need the Faith First and Foremost.But then, here's the kicker, you have to LIVE the Faith.

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Tell me, what does it mean to live the faith? What is necessary?

Frogster said:

No,that passage speaks right to the heart of this subject.They began by faith.Notice verse 2 and the comparrison

.Paul did not want them to think their walk was works based.

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

We are to walk as Abraham did.

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

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I think we are talking past each other. Again as I stated before, If you do not have the Faith in Christ as Savior then Works are meaningless. I can give up all my possesion's, help the poor, feed the hungry, till the end of my life. But if I don't have Faith in Christ, it nothing in the eyes of the Lord.No one teaches you earn your way into Heaven. But once you have the Faith you must live it, prove, obey it. After you got your job do you not have to work while you are at your job?Faith isn't a put your feet up on the desk and do nothing Faith.I see Romans and James as perfectly pieces of the puzzle coming together as one Complete Perfect Faith.Romans teaches us that works of themselves are useless without FaithJames teaches us that Faith without works is DeadPut those two together you and it's Perfect. Works with Faith.

Hentenza said:

Tell me, what does it mean to live the faith? What is necessary?

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Live and love eachother, take care of the needy, take of your friends and family and strangers.Why do people fight doing good works?I don't get it?Why do some Christians look at doing Good Works the way students look at Extra Credit in school?Teaching that Works are not necessary to live out the Faith is one of the worst teachings to come out of the Reformation. It's extremely dangerous to teach, Works no matter what don't mean anything and you don't have to do them.

boswd said:

Live and love eachother, take care of the needy, take of your friends and family and strangers.Why do people fight doing good works?I don't get it?Why do some Christians look at doing Good Works the way students look at Extra Credit in school?Teaching that Works are not necessary to live out the Faith is one of the worst teachings to come out of the Reformation. It's extremely dangerous to teach, Works no matter what don't mean anything and you don't have to do them.

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I think what is more dangerous is the belief that man can save themselves. This is not a strawman. Jesus made the condition of salvation faith not works. All of the glory goes to God. God is sovereign. Not even the works that we do are our own but those prepared in advance and given to us by God lest we boast. God sent Jesus to die for us so that, if we believe in Him, we can attain eternal life. Saving faith naturally produces the works of the Lord and the result of saving faith is salvation, hence, we work from salvation not for salvation.

Again, why does Paul tells us that works are credited as an obligation and that the man that doesn't work but trusts God who justifies the wicked has his faith credited as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5)? How can one work for grace? Isn't grace from God only?

boswd said:

I think we are talking past each other. Again as I stated before, If you do not have the Faith in Christ as Savior then Works are meaningless. I can give up all my possesion's, help the poor, feed the hungry, till the end of my life. But if I don't have Faith in Christ, it nothing in the eyes of the Lord.No one teaches you earn your way into Heaven. But once you have the Faith you must live it, prove, obey it. After you got your job do you not have to work while you are at your job?Faith isn't a put your feet up on the desk and do nothing Faith.I see Romans and James as perfectly pieces of the puzzle coming together as one Complete Perfect Faith.Romans teaches us that works of themselves are useless without FaithJames teaches us that Faith without works is DeadPut those two together you and it's Perfect. Works with Faith.

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Sure,good works are fine.But as soon as one thinks he is justified,or earning God's approval by them,then there is trouble.Also lets not forget about the pride factor.Does on feel puffed up about his marvelous works?

Frogster said:

Sure,good works are fine.But as soon as one thinks he is justified,or earning God's approval by them,then there is trouble.Also lets not forget about the pride factor.Does on feel puffed up about his marvelous works?

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and vice versa, if one thinks he said the sinner's prayer and he's good to go and need not doing anything they too maybe in a bit of trouble 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Hentenza said:

I think what is more dangerous is the belief that man can save themselves. This is not a strawman. Jesus made the condition of salvation faith not works. All of the glory goes to God. God is sovereign. Not even the works that we do are our own but those prepared in advance and given to us by God lest we boast. God sent Jesus to die for us so that, if we believe in Him, we can attain eternal life. Saving faith naturally produces the works of the Lord and the result of saving faith is salvation, hence, we work from salvation not for salvation.

Again, why does Paul tells us that works are credited as an obligation and that the man that doesn't work but trusts God who justifies the wicked has his faith credited as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5)? How can one work for grace? Isn't grace from God only?

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It's totally strawman because I don't know how many times I have to say Christ is the Way the only way but if you want to go believing you can ignore his wishes to do good works then be my guest.Calvin the promoter of this dangerous theology you all subscribe to was an Attorney maybe you guys can call on him on Judgment Day if there is a Court of Appeals
If works is the result of Salvation then what of the good works that people do that have no faith? Where is that coming from. I don't look at works as boasts, or means but of obeindence and fullness of what Christ want's from us and to live.