fragmentsofdreams
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He claims Christ as his Savior. Is there anything else necessary?
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Obama and gay marriage...
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He claims Christ as his Savior. Is there anything else necessary?
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2Cosmic2Charlie
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This is, like, most circle logic I've seen.
There no "civil union" defined in law
(Remember, we went through that, you know, about 10 posts ago)
Since there is no "civil union" defined in law, then civil marriage is the only construct available in the US.
Which makes your future statements sort of, well, irrelevant.
And as to your preamble to this this bit of runabout argumentation.
Unmarried couples simply don't have the rights of those that are married and no matter how many times you say it it just ain't so.
Examples (just of the top of my head)
unmarried people may not:
File a joint tax return
inherit wealth without dispute and penalty
be involved in medical decisions without interference.
how property in common without contract
avoid any of several tax penalty afforded married couples relating to local and state policy.
There's, like, 1000 more....
and another thing:
If your so hot to trot to ensure kids have two opposite sexed children why isn't divorce a life issue up there with abortion and stem cell research ?
How come there no people outside the divorce office with pictures of sad little kids of broken homes and people shouting the usual obscenities about how breaking up a family is murdering a kids spirit and destroying his future ?
How come there no "pro-family" Sunday with lilies and homilies about how we can't, as Catholics, stand for a society where divorce is allowed even if we would never do it because its show the debasement of the society ?
The argument suggesting that this is "won't someone think of the children !!", my dear AMDG, is beyond weak.
It fake.
As phony as a three dollar bill.
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AMDG
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Well Charlie, We may have spoken briefly about it ten posts ago--as you say, but I still wonder why not just admit that this is not a natural life style that God created (check Leviticus if you don't believe that.) Why not civil unions? It just makes more sense to me. There has to be a reason you want marriage instead of the obvious.
And perhaps you would be right about even singles not being able to hold property together if it was years ago, but not now. I of know several single couples that have bought property together. Of course, just like married couples, legal contracts are necessary. If you think that they aren't, you are quite mistaken. And as far as inheriting--a will is necessary for even married folks and even then there have been disputes concerning a will. Then as to medical concerns, I believe there's now a required document (HIPPA or something like that--something to do with privacy) which one has to designate who will even be able to be involved with medical matters--married couples are not automatically given the information--(I actually had to designate my husband being able to have access to my information, of course I was also able to designate others of no relation.) So what is left? Ah, file a joint tax return. Highly overrated. Sometimes it is far better financially to file separately. Of course those are all civil matters that could easily be covered if a civil union was decided upon. Wouldn't even have to redefine marriage to do it--and that's what would be necessary for gay marriage: someone would have to redefine marriage.
Oh, I'm sorry that you think that the children't rights are phoney. More than sorry, since that is often what the Catholic Church teaches--that the children have a right to both a mother and a father--not two mommies and not two daddies. And psychologists do say that children take their ideals from the family setting--that they do grow up better when they haven't been deprived of their role models.
And perhaps you would be right about even singles not being able to hold property together if it was years ago, but not now. I of know several single couples that have bought property together. Of course, just like married couples, legal contracts are necessary. If you think that they aren't, you are quite mistaken. And as far as inheriting--a will is necessary for even married folks and even then there have been disputes concerning a will. Then as to medical concerns, I believe there's now a required document (HIPPA or something like that--something to do with privacy) which one has to designate who will even be able to be involved with medical matters--married couples are not automatically given the information--(I actually had to designate my husband being able to have access to my information, of course I was also able to designate others of no relation.) So what is left? Ah, file a joint tax return. Highly overrated. Sometimes it is far better financially to file separately. Of course those are all civil matters that could easily be covered if a civil union was decided upon. Wouldn't even have to redefine marriage to do it--and that's what would be necessary for gay marriage: someone would have to redefine marriage.
Oh, I'm sorry that you think that the children't rights are phoney. More than sorry, since that is often what the Catholic Church teaches--that the children have a right to both a mother and a father--not two mommies and not two daddies. And psychologists do say that children take their ideals from the family setting--that they do grow up better when they haven't been deprived of their role models.
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Not everybody who says Lord Lord gets in... it takes a little more then that- like doing God's will and this man clearly does NOT do the will of God.
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well then define it for them... it's that simple. if they can put together a health care bill that's like a billion pages long licitly split like that, then they can define civil union for the gay population.
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But marriage is defined as being between a man and a women, not a man and a man or a women and a women. Period. end of conversation. it's God's institution that the states got in on the deal... that states have no power to change what God said.
God said that same sex unions and/or marriages, sex together is a grave abdominal sin- do you get that?
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SolomonVII
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You are not the only one to struggle with sin and disorder. Yes, homosexuals do suffer on account of their infliction, but everybody suffers. Everybody struggles.
It is easy to blame others, and imagine reality as if the source of your suffering is because others are pointing fingers and saying that acting on homosexual urges is a sin.
"If only Christian teaching was more modern, less sexually repressive", it has been said, "then homosexuals would not have to suffer. It is really Catholic teaching that is therefore the source of the suffering. The Catholic message teaches hate. The source of a homosexual suffering is not disorder but Christian repressive attitudes".
We all struggle with ourselves. For some it is gluttony and drowining troubles in cheeseburgers. For others it is alcohol abuse, which destroys lives for all involved. Still others it is sex with children, or maybe your best friends wife. For others, it is homosexual urges.
It is liberal of us, and loving too, to understand that may of these struggles should not be crimes. It becomes moral insanity however to project any of these disorders as virtues or societal goods.
The answer then is not to curse good and die, but to understand that there will be struggles for all of us, homosexuality included. I personally believe that it is good that sodomy is generally no longer a crime, that more and more people accept that homosexuality is a fact of life.
But it is also not a virtue. Decriminalization, acceptance and tolerance does not make a disorder into a societal good.
Marriage on the other hand, is a virtue.
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I guess some people have just decided that homosexual acts is not a sin and it's A okay to engage in such acts... that God may even be pleased with such acts... who knows...
i have no idea what's in ppl's heads, what on earth they could be thinking. All I do know is, this thread and it's promotion of homosexual lifestyles is ridiculous in this area of the forum.
Isn't there a liberal dissident area this can be moved to? I'm sure there is... Cuz this indeed properly is filled under 'liberal dissent..."
i have no idea what's in ppl's heads, what on earth they could be thinking. All I do know is, this thread and it's promotion of homosexual lifestyles is ridiculous in this area of the forum.
Isn't there a liberal dissident area this can be moved to? I'm sure there is... Cuz this indeed properly is filled under 'liberal dissent..."
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2Cosmic2Charlie
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That's a legal definition that can change for legal purposes.
I agree and the Catholic church should change its stand on this.
But we live in a society were not everyone is Catholic and even non-Catholics have rights.
Or coruse I do.
But, as stated above, we live in a society were people are allowed to commit what other believe is a grave sin.
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2Cosmic2Charlie
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This is the best you've got ?
Look, bene, you can maybe have this discussion stopped here but it all you've got is to throw us out of a room you're gonna lose this argument out in the world.
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But my argument isn't out in the word, it's in here.
and no, I got better but, you know, the rules, we have to obey them.
The point is, this section of the forum is for Catholics who are down with the pope and who do not dissent.
promoting active homosexuality is a little over the top, even for you, you would have to agree. It's very anti Catholic to promote gay marriage and gay living in here.
and no, I got better but, you know, the rules, we have to obey them.
The point is, this section of the forum is for Catholics who are down with the pope and who do not dissent.
promoting active homosexuality is a little over the top, even for you, you would have to agree. It's very anti Catholic to promote gay marriage and gay living in here.
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No, it's a divine definition that can not change because some things the government really don't have the power to.
However, we can always define civil unions.
Church can't... know why? has no power to, not even the pope can change God's word, CC. But you think the government can, wow.
so? gay ppl can have civil rights, they just can't get 'married' , why? because God said so.... hey take it up with God.
this is not a Catholic issue, it is universal one. God made marriage, just like he made the earth and the sky and the air that we breath. We can not over ride him and change what we have no power to change. We can't change the definition of marriage anymore then we can change the sun from rising and setting. It is not with in our power to change it.
ah, no, we are not allowed, we have no license to sin, CC. free will is being freed (by Christ) to choose rightly. It is being free from sin and no longer a slave to it.
You are advocating slavery. Slaves of sin... you get a big wow for that ridiculousness and that's what's wrong with the world today. Ppl actually think they have a God given right to sin and ah, no they don't.
What they have a God given right to do is be free from sin, satan, death, and hell. Jesus did not die for nothing you know... The sooner you and your ilk realize this, the better off the world will be.
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SolomonVII
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Being there for those promoting the homosexual agenda, as is now the CF norm, is far different than being there with people who are struggling with sin
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Being there for those promoting the homosexual agenda, as is now the CF norm, is far different than being there with people who are struggling with sin
Why? How can that be? it's impossible. The Catholic Church is absolutely against gay marriage and the legalization of civil 'marriages' in any and all counties and she will never, ever, in a zillion, billion, million years change it that stand...
So how on earth can it be the 'norm' i don't understand? We do have a liberal Catholic forum, right? For those who openly dissent form the Church's teaching, right??
so what's the problem?
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SolomonVII
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An unused forum is pretty small fish when they have control of the whole lake.
There are a few souls actively seeking to change the Church teaching. Most others are happy to obfuscate, discredit, drown with noise, and otherwise discredit what they know the teaching is.
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SolomonVII,
Did I undestand correctly that you are one of those few souls, who want to change Church teaching?
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