fragmentsofdreams
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Should homosexuals curse God and end their useless existence?
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Obama and gay marriage...
- Thread starter MoNiCa4316
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Should homosexuals curse God and end their useless existence?
AMDG
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You do know that some of those signers were Catholics. And you do know that the entire state of Maryland was originaly Catholic. And you do know that that the original founders of America (who you claim were merely diest--those who believed in God or a Creater) are a lot more Christian than the secular folks would have you believe. (Even their quotes are far and away more Christian than some would let you believe. For instance, George Washington insisted that the only way this Republic could stand was through religion and morality--that's what the U.S. was built on.)
Anyway, yes, there is a difference between "civil" (secular) and "marriage" (Church). And yes, my marriage (held in the U.S. on the same day) has both a civil license (for the marital union) and the religious one (the real marriage.) Which one "counts"? Obviously the state "recognizes" the marriage by the priest, but I guess the civil one counts for them and according to civil policy, it's only a contract that can be broken, however I know (and the Church teaches) that it is actually a covenant (a marriage) that cannot be broken except by God Himself!
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Fragments, correct me if i am wrong here, and it seems you are distorting this...or putting personal interpretation on the Bible which Peter warned us not to do..
BUT are you mocking scriptures to proove that God may be wrong in this?
Help me understand where you are coming from.
BUT are you mocking scriptures to proove that God may be wrong in this?
Help me understand where you are coming from.
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fragmentsofdreams
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Stability and efficiency. By devoting their lives to each other, married couples are able to do better than they are able to do on their own.
Do you see marriage only as means of encouraging procreation? Do you not see any other benefit to marriage beyond creating future soldiers and laborers?
Has your opposition to gay marriage blinded you to the benefits of marriage beside the one that gays can't do?
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I know it doesn't, for you and lots of others. But there are those who so hate the whole concept of being gay that what happened to Matthew is just fine. One perp who I followed up on, see's nothing wrong to this day with what he did.
"Outsdie of the lusts - what purpose or good does a homosexual union do for the entirety of a nation?" WA
Ummmm, don't knock the lusts! I started lusting long ago and am still lusting many years later with my hubby. Lust is good...
IMO of course.... 
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Outside of God's ordination of what marriage is, that means secular, alien on mars, venus or jupiter, that there is no benefit to a sexual relationship if it closed to life or contradicts God's creation.
And God does care --- He has showed His wrath on nations - and is not opposed of doing a clean up on immorality.
If the union has NO means to an end [a purpose suited for the secular society] and is based fully and solely on lust, it is not beneficial to give special rights under any law.
Also it has been noted and does dwindle because lust is not a long lasting factor.
Sorry, but disordered sexual drives do not stem from love.
Love stems from God, lust from satan.
Love dwells close to His laws. Lust close to satan's.
Its a fine line, but one that truly exists.
From the ppl i know, i have not seen a single couple persevere in a long lasting relationship because it is based primarily on sexual urges and lust.
And fwiw - even heterosexuals can lust - but it also fades.
If the couple doesnt have a mutual respect of their nature in their soul and of God, the relationship is based on factors not centered on God.
AND we should all be desiring every soul be be saved...
Love and mutual attraction that 'fits' [so to speak] will work and has always worked at a much different level than that based on strange attractions.
Carnal vs ethreal.
I know it doesn't, for you and lots of others. But there are those who so hate the whole concept of being gay that what happened to Matthew is just fine. One perp who I followed up on, see's nothing wrong to this day with what he did.
"Outsdie of the lusts - what purpose or good does a homosexual union do for the entirety of a nation?" WA
Ummmm, don't knock the lusts! I started lusting long ago and am still lusting many years later with my hubby. Lust is good...
I dont like the act, but i love the person.
I am sad...by this story. To know he had tears rips me apart.
Just as i wouldnt rejoice and celebrate the diversity of someone commiting adultery and give them special rights....i feel the same in this instance.
i try to always put God first, and He wants us to admonish the sinner with love.
Like a mother hen He wants all of us...to gather us up in His wings and protect us from the evils we do to ourselves.
To keep us from the permanent seperation from Him via our choice to prefer sin over Him.
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Outside of God's ordination of what marriage is, that means secular, alien on mars, venus or jupiter, that there is no benefit to a sexual relationship if it closed to life or contradicts God's creation.
And God does care --- He has showed His wrath on nations - and is not opposed of doing a clean up on immorality.
If the union has NO means to an end [a purpose suited for the secular society] and is based fully and solely on lust, it is not beneficial to give special rights under any law.
Also it has been noted and does dwindle because lust is not a long lasting factor.
Sorry, but disordered sexual drives do not stem from love.
Love stems from God, lust from satan.
Love dwells close to His laws. Lust close to satan's.
Its a fine line, but one that truly exists.
From the ppl i know, i have not seen a single couple persevere in a long lasting relationship because it is based primarily on sexual urges and lust.
And fwiw - even heterosexuals can lust - but it also fades.
If the couple doesnt have a mutual respect of their nature in their soul and of God, the relationship is based on factors not centered on God.
AND we should all be desiring every soul be be saved...
Love and mutual attraction that 'fits' [so to speak] will work and has always worked at a much different level than that based on strange attractions.
Carnal vs ethreal.
I dont like the act, but i love the person.
I am sad...by this story. To know he had tears rips me apart.
Just as i wouldnt rejoice and celebrate the diversity of someone commiting adultery and give them special rights....i feel the same in this instance.
i try to always put God first, and He wants us to admonish the sinner with love.
Like a mother hen He wants all of us...to gather us up in His wings and protect us from the evils we do to ourselves.
To keep us from the permanent seperation from Him via our choice to prefer sin over Him.
Mercy!! Just to make it clear, I do lust and I do love my husband. I hoped to put a smile on this thread but no matter what I say, it ain't happening. So to be crystal clear, I once wondered how the Bible could say and the two shall become one. Now with time, I know. My husband is me. What love I have for him is so immense and deep I can not put into words. And yes I still lust for him. I will not tell how long I have been married but tis a whole life time and may God grant us many years more together.
Alright, to tie that with this thread and homo and them marrying. I know that gays can love with just as deep a love for their other as I do for my husband. Some how, I think there will be an objection to that. I will call it a difference of opinion or perception.
God bless.
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fragmentsofdreams
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You are having trouble understanding where I am coming from because you seem to be unable to consider that people have different understandings of the world than you do.
Consider your question:
BUT are you mocking scriptures to proove that God may be wrong in this?
In your question, there is the implicit assumption that I agree with your understanding of Scriptures and God but am pretending otherwise for some twisted or evil reason. I do not and am not.
If you want to have a more fruitful discussion, use the principle of charity: assume that I am honestly saying what I believe what I say until my actions prove otherwise.
Part of the reason we clash is that we have very different epistemologies. You seem to have an authority-oriented epistemology: you trust what the authorities you have chosen to follow tell you. I am a very empirical person. I want to know why as well as what, and if I can test what someone tells me, I will do so rather simply taking their word for it. In morality, this means that I judge actions based on their fruits.
On this issue, this shows itself on the different ways we view homosexual relationships. You have been told that homosexual relationships are sinful so you believe homosexual relationships are based on lust not love. Based on my experience, I cannot believe that. Over the past year, I have watched two couples deal with a slow death. After watching a lesbian friend care for her dying partner, I can't see anything fundamentally different between her love and the love my grandma had for my dying grandpa. It was love that gave them the strength to stay with someone through long, agonizing months. A relationship based on lust could not have withstood that.
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Mercy!! Just to make it clear, I do lust and I do love my husband. I hoped to put a smile on this thread but no matter what I say, it ain't happening. So to be crystal clear, I once wondered how the Bible could say and the two shall become one. Now with time, I know. My husband is me. What love I have for him is so immense and deep I can not put into words. And yes I still lust for him. I will not tell how long I have been married but tis a whole life time and may God grant us many years more together.
Alright, to tie that with this thread and homo and them marrying. I know that gays can love with just as deep a love for their other as I do for my husband. Some how, I think there will be an objection to that. I will call it a difference of opinion or perception.
God bless.
Two shall become one - is possibly a double meaning.
Two [couple] will have one will. To please, love and care for one another.
Also it means the two become one person when they have a child.
The two dna's make one.
Anyway - i didnt want to get into the whole lust thing between married couples... it goes back into what the Pope says [et al] and since i cannot remember the whole thing, i stepped over it.
Love lasts and comes together in a perfect unity. A perfect order of nature keeps it pure.
Borrowing from the ying and yang thing - the masculine and the feminine - the joined together in unity both bodily and soul is beyond just carnal and animal, but as in the images of God - a lifting up of one another.
Etc...dont want to go all philosophical.
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Two shall become one - is possibly a double meaning.
Two [couple] will have one will. To please, love and care for one another.
Also it means the two become one person when they have a child.
The two dna's make one.
Anyway - i didnt want to get into the whole lust thing between married couples... it goes back into what the Pope says [et al] and since i cannot remember the whole thing, i stepped over it.
Love lasts and comes together in a perfect unity. A perfect order of nature keeps it pure.
Borrowing from the ying and yang thing - the masculine and the feminine - the joined together in unity both bodily and soul is beyond just carnal and animal, but as in the images of God - a lifting up of one another.
Etc...dont want to go all philosophical.
And also, he is me. And I him. I can not really put into words correctly as a lot of you can. If something happens to him it will happen to me. I have death to look forward to, may it be far away, and my soul or at least half, will die with him should he go first. Yes, you stay with one another, help one another, disagree with each other, make up and a thousand and one things. And much more.
Still gays can love as much as we.
I am finished here except to lurk possibly. Take care
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No, God hates the evil that sin brings to the soul.
Sex between ppl who are of the same sex is a grave sin and not only that but it's disordered, ie not according to God's will, design or plan for mankind.
and when ever we sin gravely, purposely, it brings evil to ones soul. That is what God hates, the evil that sin brings to our soul, making us evil.
When a person is in unrepentant mortal sin this way, they are spiritually dead, because of the evil that their free will sin brought to their soul.
This is just a fact of the matter, this is exactly what Catholicism teaches. So your argument truly is not with us FofD but with the Church. Don't shoot the messenger. The Church does not support gay marriage, in a secular or religious sense. The Church absolutely teaches us that sex between two ppl of the same sex is a grave sin.
Of course the Church and no good Catholic hates gay persons, even if they are in gay sexual relationships and neither does God hate them but he does hate the evil that their sin brings to them and it is His will they repent and live good chaste lives.
But we all know when a person has become hard of heart, God may hand them over to their sin thus He has harden them against Himself and the person is then in a state of spiritual ruins.
Will they repent? They can but it will depend on a total act of their will to do that for God has with drawn his grace from them.
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Over here, our different state governments recognizes that an ordained clergy man of any religion is able to marry legally. a religious marriage is recognized by the state so you can get married in Church and it's legal with the state your living in.
if gay marriage became legal, this is what we would see. ppl getting married in churches and it would have to be recognized. Do you see the essence of the debate here?
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2Cosmic2Charlie
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Forgive my ignorance on the timing of the ceremonies, but my overall point is still that seperate civil and sacremental ceremonies would help to clarify the difference between civil unions and chruch marraiges.
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2Cosmic2Charlie
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Well, I'd say a homosexual union support that same social goods that hetrosexual marraige does:
Social stabilty
Mutual support
Common accumlation of wealth
The bottom line is that couples make a better overall society the individuals
Children are just an additonal factor, but even wthiout them the social good of pairing up people in formal relationships recognized and given rights by the goverment is overwhelmingly positive.
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2Cosmic2Charlie
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1) Not easily. 1000's of laws, state and federal would have to be changed to substitute "civil union" for marriage for legal purpose. This isn't going to happen.
2) No one is saying clerics have to marry anyone. The Church routinely denies marriage to heterosexual couples for a variety of reasons (the church tried to stop mine) and on one sues anyone.
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well then , it's not all that important to them then, is it?
if this is truly about their legal rights and not about trying to make homosexuality a Christian doctrine, then they'd do what they had to do, huh?
I know the Catholic Church would never but we'd see many other 'churches' doing it and then the law suits would pour in for the churches and sects that refused.
It would be a real nightmare because what then? the Church is going to get out of the marrying business in the USA the way they just may have to back out of health care and the way they had to close down orphanages because they refused to let gay couples adopt?
don't you see this is an attack on the Church in America.
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