Obama and gay marriage...

Rebekka

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So Beks, the government must marry a couple, before God can?

:eek:

Wow.
Yep.

I think (I'm not sure) it originates from the protestants who were in charge here from the second half of the 16th century until the early (formally) and late (really) 19th century - they separated marriage from the church as they don't see it as a sacrament.


I don't know any other way and I don't have a problem with it. Our legal wedding date (for taxes etc) is not the same as our church wedding date (but it could have been if we'd wanted to) but our church wedding was just as "real" to us as to an American couple I think - and that (church wedding) is the date on which we celebrate our anniversaries. Most catholics over here see the civil ceremony as a formality, no big deal.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I think it is extreme and hope we never have that over here. But....the way things are going...

Anyway - I guess if you are raised in it, it is one thing.
But having the Church recognised here - via freedom of religion - is a different world.
It would be extra money and time to do it that way.

Are Catholics a minority there i suppose?


And for the civil unions, i do care if they exist.
It puts in the minds of the nation as well as the faithful that it is an acceptable way to live.

At Fatima Our Lady said so many souls go to hell, like snowflakes falling.
Something i think about...
And it does tear me up inside knowing so many souls are losing eternity.
 
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Rebekka

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I think it is extreme and hope we never have that over here. But....the way things are going...

Anyway - I guess if you are raised in it, it is one thing.
But having the Church recognised here - via freedom of religion - is a different world.
It would be extra money and time to do it that way.

Are Catholics a minority there i suppose?


And for the civil unions, i do care if they exist.
It puts in the minds of the nation as well as the faithful that it is an acceptable way to live.

At Fatima Our Lady said so many souls go to hell, like snowflakes falling.
Something i think about...
And it does tear me up inside knowing so many souls are losing eternity.
:) What you're used to is an important factor - goes for the healthcare issue too. (Hey, I'm conservative - even though I am socialist - so I do understand that people oppose changes.)

The history of the Netherlands is a bit complicated. At the moment catholics are a minority because there are more secular people, but catholics are the second largest group, and historically we've always been the majority in numbers until the secularization started in the 1960's. Now I did say in numbers - because for centuries, catholics were oppressed here (the American attitude towards England/monarchy/taxes etc - see the healthcare thread - reminds me of my own resentment towards that black period! The calvinists exploited the catholics, they didn't have a say in government, we were kept poor. I say "we" because my family have been catholic forever, and have been poor forever, until the 1960's actually because things change only slowly).

So to answer your question, a minority, yeah, actually, and no. (Now that's vague!)
 
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AMDG

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Look at the laws of the country - they are God based.

Yep. The U.S. was built on Judeo-Christian ideals (no matter what Obama says.) Twenty-nine of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were pastors or at least held theology degrees. The colleges back then were in force to turn out pastors. Don't believe? Go to www.wallbuilders.com .

And there is a difference between civil unions (secular) and marriage (Church). Why some refuse to acknowledge the obvious astounds me.

As far as the "Render unto Ceasar" yep, Jesus was talking about paying taxes, but when folks try to use that statement to mean that secular doings should be separate from doings under God, perhaps they ought to be reminded that man (and this includes Ceasar) was made in God's image. At least Dr. Scott Hahn, noted theologian, thinks so. He maintains that Jesus spoke in such an ambiguous way to avoid being trapped by those who would use the phrase to then say that Jesus was revolting against the state and inciting people to not pay taxes.
 
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WarriorAngel

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:) What you're used to is an important factor - goes for the healthcare issue too. (Hey, I'm conservative - even though I am socialist - so I do understand that people oppose changes.)

The history of the Netherlands is a bit complicated. At the moment catholics are a minority because there are more secular people, but catholics are the second largest group, and historically we've always been the majority in numbers until the secularization started in the 1960's. Now I did say in numbers - because for centuries, catholics were oppressed here (the American attitude towards England/monarchy/taxes etc - see the healthcare thread - reminds me of my own resentment towards that black period! The calvinists exploited the catholics, they didn't have a say in government, we were kept poor. I say "we" because my family have been catholic forever, and have been poor forever, until the 1960's actually because things change only slowly).

So to answer your question, a minority, yeah, actually, and no. (Now that's vague!)

Ok, i think i wrapped my brain around it.
There are alot of Catholics...mostly Catholics.
But the secular society [government] supercedes those numbers, and the laws cater to the secular society and in some ways oppress the voice of the Churches.

So essentially, they are second rate...and looked upon as free unto themselves, but not as the normative.
Thus God's Laws are secondary only to certain groups and the government allows all sorts of immorality because they cannot, without faith in God or leadership via God, practice the Christian way.

Now this reminds me of one apparition i read...and it was some time ago.

Mary said the Lord wants the governments to follow His Laws. Or the scourge will come. She said too many do not follow His Laws.

I dont recall which apparition, so dont quote me, but i am beginning to understand it as i see things going on world wide.
Things i didnt know before.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Okay, so you aren't referring to ppl in this thread... sorry, i thought perhaps you were.

But here's the deal with the whole thing, it's a false dichotomy, there is no civi marriage and then God's marriage.

"marriage" belongs to God, period. not to the state, never to the state, which is why the Church does not recognize civil unions. Notice even with heterosexual couples, the Church refers to them as unions, not marriages.

If gay ppl want to have a legal agreement between them, more power to them. I'm all for them having community property laws, paying joint taxes, sharing medial insurance, and being first of kin... they can have all that, they just can't call it "marriage" and that's where the issues come in. They want it to be called "marriage", not unions. Why?

I believe they can have these rights that are secular rights, not godly rights if that's what they want, but they don't want that... they are demanding that they be recognized as 'married' and that's not God's will. They just can not stand before God and take vows, that would really be wrong. If they want to stand before a lawyer and enter into an agreement, fine but they can not take an oath or vows that makes two, one flesh. That is reserved for man and women, not man and man or woman and woman.

When the state issues marriage licenses, it has partial ownership of marriage.
 
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Tigg

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Okay, so you aren't referring to ppl in this thread... sorry, i thought perhaps you were.

But here's the deal with the whole thing, it's a false dichotomy, there is no civi marriage and then God's marriage.

"marriage" belongs to God, period. not to the state, never to the state, which is why the Church does not recognize civil unions. Notice even with heterosexual couples, the Church refers to them as unions, not marriages.

If gay ppl want to have a legal agreement between them, more power to them. I'm all for them having community property laws, paying joint taxes, sharing medial insurance, and being first of kin... they can have all that, they just can't call it "marriage" and that's where the issues come in. They want it to be called "marriage", not unions. Why?

I believe they can have these rights that are secular rights, not godly rights if that's what they want, but they don't want that... they are demanding that they be recognized as 'married' and that's not God's will. They just can not stand before God and take vows, that would really be wrong. If they want to stand before a lawyer and enter into an agreement, fine but they can not take an oath or vows that makes two, one flesh. That is reserved for man and women, not man and man or woman and woman.

And with your post, I can agree. :)

If they are wanting the "religious" rights, then no. Only the Church can give that which for Catholics will never happen.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Also God's Laws.
No incest.
No inappropriate behavior with animals
No Bigamy
No pedophilia

And we find them immoral and unnatural.

God's Law
No homosexuality - but we say - well, its our right.
Who said it is a right??
God said it is not.

FWIW - most laws in any nation [except those severely liberalized] USE God's Laws in their country.

No violence.
No killing
No theft
Sundays off. Yep - the government forces no business to work on Sundays.
etc etc etc

Look at the laws of the country - they are God based.
Just because Obama ridiculed the Bible...
Doesnt mean God is still not in the secular society's laws and governing.

God hates Jacob?
 
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SolomonVII

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All anti-gay words and actions ties together. Apparently my points were missed. So be it.

God bless
It is in no way being anti-gay to be against gay marriage. It is gay activism that will always link the two, link people who are against gay marriage with people who tied Sherperd to the post to starve.

I have addressed all of your points. You have addressed none of mine.

I am therefore not torn on the issue, as you apparently are—or were. It seems you have made up your mind now that promoting the Catholic teaching is anti-gay and therefore linked to gay bashing.
This is operating in safe mode in CF for sure. Good for you.

Apparently my point was missed that being pro0-Catholic teaching is the opposite to being anti-gay.

So be it.
 
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SolomonVII

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what? are you serious? So saying two ppl of the same sex marrying, is not God's will, equals, anti gay words that ties in with anti gay actions?
For gay activists this is most certainly true to their beliefs.

Quoting the Bible is a hate crime in Canada now on precisely this issue.
The same goes for California's Prejean. Mild statements against gay marriage on her behalf opens her to all sorts of contempt and criticism by those who push the gay agenda.

And making it personal like that means you can attack the pro-marriage position by attacking her, and not even having to argue for the validity of your own beliefs.
 
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Tigg

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TY CC for reminding that in marriage here in the states the govt gives the Priest or men of the cloth the states approval to marry and have the marriage performed recognized by the state. One tends to forget that.

And Rebekka, thank you for pointing out the way it is in Belgium plus other nations of Europe. If we had it more clearly defined here as you do there, maybe there wouldn't be so much arguing. Or at least less.

God bless
 
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Joachim

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Yep. The U.S. was built on Judeo-Christian ideals (no matter what Obama says.) Twenty-nine of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were pastors or at least held theology degrees. The colleges back then were in force to turn out pastors. Don't believe? Go to www.wallbuilders.com .

First of all, Catholics really shouldn't be using a Protestant argument such as that. Secondly, this country was not built on any kind of religious ideal. This country was founded by Deists who specifically designed a government where religion was to be kept seperate from the state.


All you do when you bring religion into the gay marriage debate is that you give ammo to those who want to legalize gay marriage by playing into their hands that this is "all about religion" rather than being about protecting the secular institution of marriage
 
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WarriorAngel

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God hates Jacob?
Hated his sins, not him personally.
Look at the context of the issue, not the language which is why the Pope clarifies our understandings in our era because every generation speaks differently.

That doesnt literally mean what we today think it means..
Which is why Christ established a teaching authority on earth and one we must follow...and not try to 'wrest the scriptures for ourselves'...said St Peter.
First of all, Catholics really shouldn't be using a Protestant argument such as that. Secondly, this country was not built on any kind of religious ideal. This country was founded by Deists who specifically designed a government where religion was to be kept seperate from the state.


All you do when you bring religion into the gay marriage debate is that you give ammo to those who want to legalize gay marriage by playing into their hands that this is "all about religion" rather than being about protecting the secular institution of marriage

Actually, the forefathers of this country didnt want any particular Church to BE the state Church as it was in England, and not to mean that the state was to put laws into effect that were contrary to the Churches.

Nor did they wish the state to interfer in the Churches rights as entities - to be governeed by Kings...such as the Church of England [once again] was ruled by the King and not the clergy. [per say]

IT does not mean we abandon God in our laws.

And i already said - it is unnatural for same sex to marry because it is not a benefit to the society at large since there is no way they can naturally procreate in their union.
And procreation is a benefit to every country - for without which the nation cannot continue nor prosper...so the nations need hererosexuals, they do not need homosexuals.
 
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Tigg

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It is in no way being anti-gay to be against gay marriage. It is gay activism that will always link the two, link people who are against gay marriage with people who tied Sherperd to the post to starve.

I have addressed all of your points. You have addressed none of mine.

I am therefore not torn on the issue, as you apparently are—or were. It seems you have made up your mind now that promoting the Catholic teaching is anti-gay and therefore linked to gay bashing.
This is operating in safe mode in CF for sure. Good for you.

Apparently my point was missed that being pro0-Catholic teaching is the opposite to being anti-gay.

So be it.


No. I agree with the Church teaching that being gay in itself is not sinful. The sex act itself is. (Please excuse the difference in type size as I do not know why or how to correct it.)

And again, no. Matthew Shepard ...He was driven to a remote area near the Sherman Hills neighbourhood east of Laramie, tied to a split-rail fence, tortured, beaten and pistol-whipped by his attackers, while he begged for his life; he was then left for dead in near freezing temperatures. A cyclist who found him on Snowy Mountain View Road at 6:22 pm, some 18 hours after the attack, at first mistook him for a scarecrow. He was unconscious and suffering from hypothermia. His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."

"
Hospital officials said Matthew had a fracture from behind his head to just in front of his right ear and a massive brain stem injury which affected his vital signs, including his heart beat, body temperature and other involuntary functions. There were also approximately a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. He was so badly injured in the attack that doctors were unable to operate. He never regained consciousness after being found, and remained on full life support."

Matthew Wayne Shepard - A Gentle Spirit

To say he was tied and left to starve is not so. They thought he was dead. Just correcting cause others might not know or remember. And I mean no offense.

And I don't know what operating in safe mode is here really. I enjoy others post that have a differing point than I or diametrically opposed point. I have noted that is not acceptable and a lot of good discussions have been curtailed. Which is a shame unless personal name calling or issues intervened on a subject

So I will continue to read, put in maybe a word or two and you do the same. :) I enjoy your posts.

God bless.








 
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WarriorAngel

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Outsdie of the lusts - what purpose or good does a homosexual union do for the entirety of a nation?

We know men and women can and do continue our strength in numbers and continue to populate so we have the next generations...
So what secular benefit would it be for the government to uphold their unions as valid?
 
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Tigg

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For gay activists this is most certainly true to their beliefs.

Quoting the Bible is a hate crime in Canada now on precisely this issue.
The same goes for California's Prejean. Mild statements against gay marriage on her behalf opens her to all sorts of contempt and criticism by those who push the gay agenda.

And making it personal like that means you can attack the pro-marriage position by attacking her, and not even having to argue for the validity of your own beliefs.

:-O And that is what I do not want for my country in any form. But I see it is trying to go that way...TY for posting something I didn't know.
 
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WarriorAngel

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No. I agree with the Church teaching that being gay in itself is not sinful. The sex act itself is. (Please excuse the difference in type size as I do not know why or how to correct it.)

And again, no. Matthew Shepard ...He was driven to a remote area near the Sherman Hills neighbourhood east of Laramie, tied to a split-rail fence, tortured, beaten and pistol-whipped by his attackers, while he begged for his life; he was then left for dead in near freezing temperatures. A cyclist who found him on Snowy Mountain View Road at 6:22 pm, some 18 hours after the attack, at first mistook him for a scarecrow. He was unconscious and suffering from hypothermia. His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."

"Hospital officials said Matthew had a fracture from behind his head to just in front of his right ear and a massive brain stem injury which affected his vital signs, including his heart beat, body temperature and other involuntary functions. There were also approximately a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. He was so badly injured in the attack that doctors were unable to operate. He never regained consciousness after being found, and remained on full life support."

Matthew Wayne Shepard - A Gentle Spirit

To say he was tied and left to starve is not so. They thought he was dead. Just correcting cause others might not know or remember. And I mean no offense.

And I don't know what operating in safe mode is here really. I enjoy others post that have a differing point than I or diametrically opposed point. I have noted that is not acceptable and a lot of good discussions have been curtailed. Which is a shame unless personal name calling or issues intervened on a subject

So I will continue to read, put in maybe a word or two and you do the same. :) I enjoy your posts.

God bless.






See that is simply horrible and uncalled for.
It doesnt mean Catholics dislike or hate gays.
I had friends who died from AIDS and i cared deeply for them.

My feelings for them as pure individual humans is a seperate issue than saying it is a right for them to marry.

I am enraged anyone would do that to another living person.
We are taught not to hate...
And to have love and compassion for the sinners... this act was evil.

And that is the sort of thing that doesnt work to help our brethren plagued with this attraction.

Just so ya know... my stance on the marriage has nothing to do with them as humans.
 
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