Do We Worship a Violent God?

Glenfield

Student
Sep 27, 2009
12
1
✟15,137.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
For one of my college classes, I have been reading a book that postulates, based on New Testament texts and the writings of early church fathers, that Christianity was originally a pacifist, non-violent religion. He believes that a shift came about when Christianity started to become more of a "state religion" and had to accomodate the needs of Christian rulers, soldiers, and statesmen. In light of some of Jesus' teachings about loving our neighbor and "turning the other cheek," I want to give his ideas fair consideration. This leads me to ask two questions:

"If Christianity was originally a non-violent religion, are Christians today outside of God's will when we go to war, support capital punishment, or pray for victory over our national enemies?"

"If Jesus preached non-violence, what happened to the picture of God as divine warrior and the people of God as his agents of (violent) justice we see in the Old Testament?"

Thank you for your thoughts!
 

Kutte

Regular Member
Dec 30, 2007
1,197
66
USA
✟24,166.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Green
Glenfield,

True Christianity still is a non-violent religion. Trouble is, though, that many people who profess to be Christians are not following the rules of non-violence as preached by Jesus Christ. Instead, they mend and change the words of Jesus in a way to justify their preference for violent actions for ironing out difference between people and nations.

Kutte
 
Upvote 0

Glenfield

Student
Sep 27, 2009
12
1
✟15,137.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In light of this understanding of the Christian faith, how do we justify Jesus' commendation of the faith of the Roman centurion and failure to criticize him for his violent occupation, Paul's frequent use of soldier imagery, and the violent imagery of the Book of Revelation? There seems to be a tension of sorts between the themes of nonviolence and the implicit acceptance of a violent social system even in the Gospels. Even traditional models of the atonement rely heavily on the violent sacrificial imagery of the Old Testament. I look forward to your insight into these seemingly contradictory tendencies in the NT accounts.
 
Upvote 0

Wallace Dobbs

New Member
Oct 9, 2009
1
0
✟7,611.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"If Christianity was originally a non-violent religion, are Christians today outside of God's will when we go to war, support capital punishment, or pray for victory over our national enemies?"

The answer to this question depends partially upon the way that Christians view the Old Testament. A rational line of reasoning would indicate that the Old Testament shows that God did not oppose His followers in their violent interaction with other violent and warring nations. However, this question approaches the debate with the idea that Christianity was originally non-violent. Although Christians benefit from following the examples of devoted early Christian forefathers in many instances, the examples that those Christians set are not what Christians today should use to determine what is right and what is wrong. When we look at Jesus we don't see Him fight back physically against His oppressors. Some might believe that this shows Christians that fighting and war is wrong. What these people neglect to remember is that fighting back would have been contradictory to Jesus' sacrificial mission. Since we cannot define right and wrong based upon mere Christian example, and we cannot base our decision upon the valuable, but often misused question, "What Would Jesus Do?" We have to rely upon the direction of the Holy Spirit, the way that violence is handled in the Old Testament, and the "lesser of two evils" mentality.

The mistake that we really need to avoid when approach these questions is to look around at our fellow Christians and make our ethical decisions based upon what they think. Many Christians believe that war, capitol punishment, and victory based prayers are needed and necessary. This is not a good reason to come to these conclusions. People need to use their own discernment.

Personally, I believe that war is something that Christians can participate in without sinning. Paul shares that when Christians disagree on an issue such as eating food sacrificed to idols, Christians should be careful not to cause each other to stumble. For this reason, I do not plan to ask any pacifist Christians to enlist with me if I join the army. If they ask where I am going, I can say, "That is a controversial topic. Since I know that you believe violence is wrong, I will avoid talking about where I am going so that we may avoid unnecessary conflict." If Jesus had a problem with Christians having any participation in violence, He would have probably told the people a parable the communicated this clearly.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Deifyal

New Member
Oct 9, 2009
1
0
✟7,611.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
[FONT=&quot]Mr. Layfield,
Jesus was not violent, but God the Father was. It seems clear that this is the case. You may think that this is a bit of a stretch, but it is fairly clear that Jesus has helped to bring issues of child abuse to a more carefully approached topic. God the Father appears to have been very authoritarian over Jesus. Jesus' mission was violent towards Himself. The argument may be made that God the Father is the violent side of the Godhead. Jesus balances this. For this reason, it is often better to let the Holy Spirit guide you since He represents the more objective side of Christian violence.
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"If Jesus preached non-violence, what happened to the picture of God as divine warrior and the people of God as his agents of (violent) justice we see in the Old Testament?"

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]This should answer your question, "If Jesus preached non-violence, what happened to the picture of God as divine warrior and the people of God as his agents of (violent) justice we see in the Old Testament?"
[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

donb1959

Jesus Freak
Aug 24, 2009
103
4
NC
Visit site
✟7,754.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For one of my college classes, I have been reading a book that postulates, based on New Testament texts and the writings of early church fathers, that Christianity was originally a pacifist, non-violent religion. He believes that a shift came about when Christianity started to become more of a "state religion" and had to accomodate the needs of Christian rulers, soldiers, and statesmen. In light of some of Jesus' teachings about loving our neighbor and "turning the other cheek," I want to give his ideas fair consideration. This leads me to ask two questions:

"If Christianity was originally a non-violent religion, are Christians today outside of God's will when we go to war, support capital punishment, or pray for victory over our national enemies?"

"If Jesus preached non-violence, what happened to the picture of God as divine warrior and the people of God as his agents of (violent) justice we see in the Old Testament?"

Thank you for your thoughts!

Very good questions. The death penalty is supported by scripture:

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (Genesis 9:5,6)

"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." (Exodus 21:12).

See Exodus 21:12,14,15,17; Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:16-18; Deuteronomy 24:7; etc. God ordered Joshua and Israel to execute the death penalty upon Achan. See Joshua 7:15.

"The State must be founded upon JUSTICE, and in human society justice can only be maintained by punishment . . . Those who are appointed to administer the law, and make effectual the sanctions of it, have a duty to do for society in the name of God. Murder is the most extreme violation of the brotherly relation of mankind, and is to be punished accordingly. The penal power, attributable to God alone, is here committed to the hands of man." From Delitzsche's comments on Genesis 9:6.

The death penalty was instituted over 800 years before the Law was given at Mt. Sinai. therefore, it cannot be charged that the death penalty was under the Law and does not apply to us today.

Jesus did not come to destroy the LAW. See Matthew 5:17-19. Even if He did, this would not have repealed the death penalty, because it was instituted over 800 years before the law.

There's a bunch on war....war has its place.
2 Samuel 5:18-25 (NKJV) The Philistines also went and deployed themselves in the Valley of Rephaim. 19 So David inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall I go up against the Philistines? Will You deliver them into my hand?" And the LORD said to David, "Go up, for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into your hand." 20 So David went to Baal Perazim, and David defeated them there; and he said, "The LORD has broken through my enemies before me, like a breakthrough of water." Therefore he called the name of that place Baal Perazim. 21 And they left their images there, and David and his men carried them away. 22 Then the Philistines went up once again and deployed themselves in the Valley of Rephaim. 23 Therefore David inquired of the LORD, and He said, "You shall not go up; circle around behind them, and come upon them in front of the mulberry trees. 24 "And it shall be, when you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the mulberry trees, then you shall advance quickly. For then the LORD will go out before you to strike the camp of the Philistines." 25 And David did so, as the LORD commanded him; and he drove back the Philistines from Geba as far as Gezer.

Christianity is supposed to be non violent, but God has ways of dealing with enemies. Then does this dispute the whole Love thing, nope, it actually supports it, but I'm tired now, and my fingers hurt:sorry:

Shalom,
DonB
 
Upvote 0

Kutte

Regular Member
Dec 30, 2007
1,197
66
USA
✟24,166.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Green
I don't think one should put to much weight on the Old Testament and instead rely more on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Perhaps we should look at the OT as a book of simple tales which also includes witchcraft such as:


Genesis 2:21-22:
> "Then the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and took one of his ribs and closed up the place from which he had removed it, and made the rib into a woman and brought her to the man."

And vulgarities like:
> With the Lord’s approval, the Israelites are allowed to kidnap “beautiful women” from the enemy camp to be their trial wives. If, after having sexual relations, a man has no “delight” in his wife, he can simply let her go. DT 21:10-14

Or:
> “…I have given thee cows dung for mans dung and thou shall prepare the bread therewith.” EZ 4:15

Kutte
 
Upvote 0

StevenL

Veteran
Sep 10, 2004
1,890
95
68
Louisiana, USA
✟10,024.00
Faith
Christian
The I Am, YHVH, God, of the Old Testament was Christ. Yep, he was pretty violent.

1Co 10:1 And I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the Sea.
1Co 10:2 And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud, and in the Sea,
1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food.
1Co 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock following, and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, "for they were scattered in the deserted place."


Apparerenty his brothers (overcomers) are going to be pretty violent as well.

Rev 2:26 "'And to him who overcomes and obeys My commands to the very end, I will give authority over the nations of the earth.
Rev 2:27 And he shall be their shepherd, ruling them with a rod of iron, just as earthenware jars are broken to pieces; and his power over them shall be like that which I Myself have received from My Father;


Luk 19:12 Then He said: A certain wellborn man went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And calling ten of his slaves, he gave to them ten minas and said to them, Trade until I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, We do not desire this one to reign over us.

Luk 19:27 But these hostile to me, those not desiring me to reign over them, bring them here and execute them before me.


Of course, most follow a "jesus" different from this One.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ozell

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
4,777
60
chicago il
✟5,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
=Glenfield;53157944]For one of my college classes, I have been reading a book that postulates, based on New Testament texts and the writings of early church fathers, that Christianity was originally a pacifist, non-violent religion. He believes that a shift came about when Christianity started to become more of a "state religion" and had to accomodate the needs of Christian rulers, soldiers, and statesmen. In light of some of Jesus' teachings about loving our neighbor and "turning the other cheek," I want to give his ideas fair consideration. This leads me to ask two questions

"If Christianity was originally a non-violent religion, are Christians today outside of God's will when we go to war, support capital punishment, or pray for victory over our national enemies?"

Yes! read Genesis first 4 chapter where Adam and Eve chose satan over God. Notice in your reading of the chapters that God never told Adam or Eve about war, killing, sacrificing. hate, vengeance, etc.

"If Jesus preached non-violence, what happened to the picture of God as divine warrior and the people of God as his agents of (violent) justice we see in the Old Testament?"

read Genesis 6v5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 
Upvote 0

Glenfield

Student
Sep 27, 2009
12
1
✟15,137.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
DonB,

Thanks for your insights. You illustrate my point well. The Old Testament Law, and even texts pointing to a period before the Law was given show a picture of God as meting out (violent) justice in defense of divine standards of righteousness. Yet, if the writings of early church fathers are indicative of the theology of the early church, it appears that many Christians turned to pacifism and non-violence fairly early in the history of the church, perhaps while first generation believers were still alive. What might have caused this shift?
 
Upvote 0