Ellen White, inspired author to Adventists, endorsed Miller's false message

Cribstyl · Oct 8, 2009

..........Hmmm,

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
Can't say. Have to see what He wrote and would need to know His intentions. Every person proclaiming God's return up to this day has either had a personal agenda to get money, or has lead their followers to their deaths. So yeah, I think we have a good record on knowing who's behind what message.

I don't follow you hear. Would you like to clarify?

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
They were right indeed, but it wasn't from God. If it were then don't you think they would have went and comforted and helped their brothers who had been so balefully deceived , instead of laughing at them and ridiculing them? I wonder what spirit was behind that?

Not all scoffed Stryder. Here is Dowling again:

I cannot concur with those who seem to think that the lash of satire, or the sting of ridicule, is the best weapon with which to assail the doctrine advocated by Mr. M. This will not relieve the mind of the honest inquirer after truth, who has felt perplexed by what appeared to him the plausible statements and singular coincidences in Mr. M.'s book. It is necessary to use argument and fact to knock down the foundation upon which his theory is based, and nothing else will satisfy a candid and inquisitive mind. Besides, the doctrine of Mr. M., that in less than four years "every eye shall see" the Judge seated on his "great white throne," (however weakly supported,) is too solemn a subject to be trifled with; hence it becomes us to approach it with feelings of seriousness and solemnity.

--------

I have frequently been asked if I believe Mr. Miller to be sincere. I have invariably answered in the affirmative. I cannot but suppose that Mr. M. is a pious, well-meaning man. I would advise him, in conclusion, if he would escape the distress I know it would cause him in his old age to have been unintentionally instrumental in the spread of infidelity, to go home and preach Christ crucified to perishing sinners, which I have no doubt he is qualified to do, and to waste no more of a life which might be valuable if rightly spent, in vainly attempting to make known those times and seasons which God hath wisely concealed from the ken of mortals, and "put into His own power."

But certainly we know that Jesus was both sincere and not scoffing. And it was His words that were quoted to the millerites.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
You know alot of people thought Jesus sounded ludicrous. And I'm not changing anything. Just telling you how I see it.

You said that it was Miller's message and God used him despite his mistakes. That is not what Mrs. White said. You are changing it.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
I think she meant that God used Miller to make that proclamation at that time, even though He was wrong about what was to happen.

Here again is what she said. She said the MESSAGE was from heaven Stryder. Why do you ignore Ellen White?

Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven

Angels of God accompanied William Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted, fearlessly proclaiming the message committed to his trust.

Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven.

They did not realize that they were rejecting the counsel of God against themselves, and were working in union with Satan and his angels to perplex God's people,who were living out the heaven-sent message.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
You know, Satan used Christ's words when tempting Him in the dessert. Just because you're saying it doesn't mean that you mean it or that you're applying it properly.

But Stryder, they were applying it properly. Jesus did not come in 1843/44

Pythons · Oct 8, 2009

Here it is Stryder,

Ellen White said:
I dared not give unbelief a moment's encouragement, but quickly replied: "I have not a doubt but that the doctrine preached by Mr. Miller is the truth. What power attends his words! what conviction is carried home to the sinner's heart!" {CET 36.2}

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
Again, can you please show where Ellen claim to read hearts?

She claimed in her writing that God read them and that they were faulty.

Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near.

This is her only defense available because it was already demonstrated beyond doubt that they were right.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

tall73 said:
But in fact it was her that was wrong, and they that were quoting Christ, and they were right.

Stryder06 said:

Well Tall, either we're right, or you are. I guess we'll find out some day right?

Click to expand...

We do not have to wait until someday to know that they were right that Jesus would not return in 1843.

tall73 · Oct 8, 2009

Stryder06 said:
You and this false message things. As long as you stick to that you know we're never going to get anywhere.

The message was false

Sophia7 · Oct 8, 2009

tall73 said:
All we have are words they wrote. Now if I posted a writing by someone who rejected Miller's time setting, BUT who also thought that Jesus' coming was near,and advocated that, and who expressed happiness about that would you accept that as evidence? Or would you say he was just lying again based only on Ellen White?

Stryder06 said:
Can't say. Have to see what He wrote and would need to know His intentions. Every person proclaiming God's return up to this day has either had a personal agenda to get money, or has lead their followers to their deaths. So yeah, I think we have a good record on knowing who's behind what message.

George Duffield was a Presbyterian minister during the Millerite movement. In 1842 Duffield published Dissertations on the Prophecies Relative to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, putting into written form a series of lectures that he had delivered in 1841-42. In them Duffield defended the premillennial, literal view of the second coming and answered many objections of the critics of that view. Duffield both believed that Jesus' second coming was near and "loved His appearing," contrary to Ellen White's condemnation and accusations against those who had rejected Miller's message. This is evident in these quotes from Duffield's book (emphasis in bold and color added):

When Noah began to preach to the antediluvian world, and to forewarn them of the coming flood, one hundred and twenty years* was stated to be the term of God's forbearance till its occurrence. When Israel were oppressed in Egypt, they had the prediction, made to Abraham, of the four hundred years[**] of their affliction, which dated at the mocking of Isaac by Ishmael, and terminated in their deliverance. Isaiah predicted the period when the kingdom of Israel[***] should be overthrown; Jeremiah the seventy years of Judah's captivity;§ and Daniel the period of seventy weeks, or four hundred and ninety years, when the Messiah would have appeared.|| We are not therefore to be told that there is no such thing as chronological prophecy.

It pleased God, however, in every instance to leave the precise date for the commencement of the period somewhat obscure; but the events fulfilling the prediction demonstrated, not only when that date occurred, but the precision with which the prophecy had been accomplished. Daniel was not a poetical prophet, but a plain, matter-of-fact man; or, as we would say, in our modern parlance, a business man, acquainted with the nature and importance of statistical matters. Events have proved that one of his chronological predictions was not indeterminate. It is therefore assuming too much to affirm, that his other periods are of a different character, and John's also, who takes his principal chronological prophecy from him.

Our object is not to adjust dates, but merely to show that we have certain chronological signs or series of dates, by which to compute the period of Christ's coming. It is true, that the period of their commencement cannot positively be determined, inasmuch as there are several series of events, occurring at different periods, from any one of which they may be severally commenced, and calculating forward, we shall be pointed to as many different dates for their termination. Thus the period of 2,520, for the chastening of the Jews, may be dated from 731 B. C., when Shalmanezer invaded the ten tribes, and made Samaria tributary to him; or 727 B. C., when he carried Israel captive; or 724 B. C., when he laid siege to Samaria; or 722 B. C., when he took it the second time ; or 714 B. C., when Sennacherib invaded Judea; or 708 B. C., when his army was destroyed; or 677 B. C., when Esarhaddon extinguished the kingdom of Israel. Counting 2,520 years, the period of Israel's trial, from each of these dates, we are brought to important dates in the world's history from 1780 to 1843-4, in all of which, as far as they have transpired, some remarkable movements have taken place in God's providence, evidently preparing the way for a great and final catastrophe in the affairs of the nations.[****] In like manner, the period of 2,300 years in the vision of Daniel, may be dated from the edict of Cyrus, 536 B. C.; or of Darius Hystaspes, 518 B. C.; or of the seventh year of Artaxerxes, 457 or 456 B. C.; or of the twentieth of the same monarch, 444, or 434, or 432 B. C., not to mention others, which will bring us to A. D. 1764, 1782, 1843, 1856, 1866, 1868.

Mr. Miller has assumed the third date, and confidently preaches that the coming of Christ will be in 1843. He has not proved his assumption to be correct; but, on the contrary, neglecting the harmony of prophecy, and spiritualizing all that is said about the conversion and restoration of the Jews, the war of Gog and Magog, the battle of Armageddon, and other important predictions, he relieves himself from much trouble and embarrassment as an interpreter of prophecy, and, as we think, with unauthorized confidence announces the year and day of Christ's appearance.

God, we think, has purposely left these dates in doubt, so that we may not be able to know precisely the day of Christ's coming. We regret, therefore, that so much confidence and boldness of assertion, not sustained by sufficient proof, should have been indulged in on this subject. We believe it is impossible, for the reasons already stated, and others which might be added, to demonstrate the precise day and hour. Nevertheless, we can descry with sufficient distinctness the general period or season during which the grand event will take place, so that we cannot be more remote from it, at the furthest assignable date, than one hundred and seventy-five years. We may be, and most probably are, much nearer, and although we cannot but condemn the confidence with which it is asserted that next year will be the period, as do Mr. Miller and many others, yet we believe that somewhere from 1843 to 1847, will be marked by very clear and decided movements in God's providence, tending to shape the character of approaching political commotions, and to affect the interests of the Jewish nation, and of the church and the world, which shall render it a marked epoch, and prove that we are advanced one stage nearer to the time of the end.

* Gen. 6. 3.
[**] Gen. 15.13.
[***] Isaiah, 7. 1-9.
§ Jer. 25. 12; 29. 10.
|| Daniel, 9. 1,4,20-27.
[****] See Habershon's Dissertations on the Prophetic Scriptures. (387-389)

[In the above quote, some of the symbols were not displaying properly, so I replaced them with asterisks. My substitutions are enclosed in brackets.]
__________________________________________________ _________

We wrest your objection from you, oh ye that are slow of heart to believe all the great things which God has promised. It is not true, that "all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." God has never been long absent from the world by the direct interpositions of his miraculous power. The last 1,800 years have been the longest period in which the world has not seen the visible tokens of his presence. He has but retired till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. He is gathering his elect, taking out of the world a people for his glory. The work will soon be done. The day of "the restitution of all things," spoken of by the holy prophets, draws near. More suddenly shall it come than the rush of the tempest in the heavens. The lightning's flash shall not be more rapid or vivid than the coming of the Son of Man. Where, then, ye scoffers, will ye find a place to hide your guilty heads?how then shall you be able to meet the indignant flashes of his eye? In vain will ye call on the rocks and hills to shelter you, and hide you from the wrath of God and of the Lamb. A power you cannot resist shall seize your guilty spirits, and drag them to his bar. Terrible, beyond conception, will be the agony of your soul, there, in the full sight of his glory, to see him whom you have so cruelly rejected, and malignantly insulted, and awake to the full horror of your doom.

But happy, unspeakably happy will be the soul prepared for that glorious revelation of the Lord from Heaven:

Behold! Heaven opens! glory bursts at once
Upon the sight! Messiah; King of kings
And Lord of lords! Hosanna! sing aloud,
Hosanna, hallelujah! See the Lamb
Comes in his wedding garments! Hark, the Church,
The new Jerusalem, his favored bride,
Arrayed in white, attending him through Heaven,
Tunes her unnumbered voices to the song,
Hosanna, hallelujah! Angels join
The glorious anthem in melodious tones,
And through the skies re-echo far and wide,
Hosanna, hallelujah!Saints on earth
Catch the glad sound of joy; and, as they rise
To meet their Lord in airy regions, shout
Hosanna, hallelujah! Earth, redeemed
From thine oppressors, highly favored world,
Thou birth-place and thou dwelling-place of God.
Join every voice to swell the mighty choir,
Hosanna, hallelujah! Ocean, tune
Thy never ceasing music to the theme,
Hosanna, hallelujah! Mountains, hills,
Groves, forests, valleys, lakes and flowing streams,
Speak your delight in one united strain,
Hosanna, hallelujah! And let all
The full creation, the glad chorus join,
Till the vast echo fills the realms of space
Hosanna, hallelujah! Praise the Lord.

(Ragg's Poem on the Deity)

* Acts, 1. 11. (433-434)

BrightCandle · Oct 9, 2009

tall73 said:
The message was false

William Millers was indeed a message sent from heaven, even if he was wrong on the event, but not the date of 1844. Look at the global religious revival that it caused. Look at how even the disappointment lead to a sifting away of those who were not fully committed to Jesus. Look at how God lead those that remained to greater understanding of the Bible.

squint · Oct 9, 2009

BrightCandle said:
William Millers was indeed a message sent from heaven, even if he was wrong on the event, but not the date of 1844. Look at the global religious revival that it caused. Look at how even the disappointment lead to a sifting away of those who were fully committed. Look at how God lead those that remained to greater understanding.

Couple a decades + back I belonged to a particular 'Word of Faith' charismatic 'sect.'

There came a little booklet/prophesy from somewhere into the various charismatic churches in the (large) city I live in regarding the 'RAPTURE' coming on a certain date that year, about the (typically predicted) Fall Feast (of the O.T.)

As a fairly serious student of the text at the time with a few years under my belt already, I simply raised an eyebrow, and told my closest friends in the church that date setting was absurd and that more than likely it wasn't gonna happen, though I wouldn't be saddened obviously if it did. But I was in no way about to make any kind of bizarre last minute 'dress prep' just in case (as if Jesus doesn't know you enough already.) You know, like SELL SELL SELL all your goods and PRAY PRAY PRAY that you'd be 'counted worthy and to NOT NOT NOT fall into temptation.

Needless to say the date came and went...and a few misguided souls did actually radically alter their personal goods stash i.e. liquidated everything they had and ran to the deep woods in poverty stricken seclusion....what a fiasco. Some of these people had several little children.

After that entire event, to which the pastor really didn't comment (as there was new stuff flying about every week) I started very intense study completely on my own and left that nonsense behind. Still love the people though and speak to most of them often.

I have the pleasure of loving them regardless of the nonsense OR our no longer 'doctrinal' affiliations. My unsaved friends think they're crazy religious fanatics. I know them intimately. I know how they 'tick.'

s

BrightCandle · Oct 9, 2009

squint said:
Couple a decades + back I belonged to a particular 'Word of Faith' charismatic 'sect.'

There came a little booklet/prophesy from somewhere into the various charismatic churches in the (large) city I live in regarding the 'RAPTURE' coming on a certain date that year, about the (typically predicted) Fall Feast (of the O.T.)

As a fairly serious student of the text at the time with a few years under my belt already, I simply raised an eyebrow, and told my closest friends in the church that date setting was absurd and that more than likely it wasn't gonna happen, though I wouldn't be saddened obviously if it did. But I was in no way about to make any kind of bizarre last minute 'dress prep' just in case (as if Jesus doesn't know you enough already.) You know, like SELL SELL SELL all your goods and PRAY PRAY PRAY that you'd be 'counted worthy and to NOT NOT NOT fall into temptation.

Needless to say the date came and went...and a few misguided souls did actually radically alter their personal goods stash i.e. liquidated everything they had and ran to the deep woods in poverty stricken seclusion....what a fiasco. Some of these people had several little children.

After that entire event, to which the pastor really didn't comment (as there was new stuff flying about every week) I started very intense study completely on my own and left that nonsense behind. Still love the people though and speak to most of them often.

I have the pleasure of loving them regardless of the nonsense OR our no longer 'doctrinal' affiliations. My unsaved friends think they're crazy religious fanatics. I know them intimately. I know how they 'tick.'

s

The important thing is to learn from our mistakes, and not give up when confronted with doubts. If one keeps studying and praying for wisdom it will be given over time.

squint · Oct 9, 2009

BrightCandle said:
The important thing is to learn from our mistakes, and not give up when confronted with doubts. If one keeps studying and praying for wisdom it will be given over time.

Hey, we AGREE! Imagine that?

I had to go back to ground zero and start from scratch. Left few doctrinal stones unturned along the way. Searched out nearly every camp and every sect available. It was a very rewarding experience retrospectively. I still listen to the Mormons on the tube once in awhile just for kicks. Even THEY have some interesting perspectives until they get all extra-biblical Moroni. Who would have ever named an angel MORONi? That outta tell us something about authorship?

found out in the end that loving my neighbors was enough to keep my hands full in reality, and God did show me how that is scripturally viable.

Imagine that? Seems to be the hardest thing in the world of christianity though. That's even stranger.

Cribstyl · Oct 9, 2009

tall73 said:
Miller's message is summarized in the title of his book of lectures:

Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second
Coming of Christ about the Year 1843

It is my position on the subject that Miller's message was false. Jesus did not return to earth in 1843.

Therefore Miller's message was not from heaven, and it was not the "truth". It was man's error, not God's design. I do not believe that God tested the people of Miller's day by Miller's message.

You may also see some Adventists argue, as they have before, that the millerites were half right. Adventists believe that Miller got the right date, but the wrong event. Jesus went to the heavenly most holy place in the view of Adventists, rather than coming to earth.

Let the reader reflect, if they should make similar arguments here, that those who claim that God gave a half-true message are really saying God gave at least a partially false message.

But in reality, the message of Miller was that Jesus' second coming to earth would occur around 1843. The message was one message, and both the event and the date were part of it. That message was false. Jesus' second coming to earth did not occur around 1843.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Obviously the Holy Ghost did not take part in this.

2Pe 1:16¶For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

The faithful should rejoice that the Gospel is all about how to apply Jesus Christ in our lives.
We should take comfort in being adopted by God.

God's New Convenant included that no man would teach us to know the Lord, because He will indwell the least to the greatest.

Norbert L · Oct 9, 2009

tall73 said:
We cannot know what I would do in that time. I didn't live in that time.

We can know that those who rejected Miller's time setting message by looking to the words of Jesus were in fact correct.

Of course prophetic events can be rather 20/20 in hindsight as John 12:16 points out, but history has a habit of repeating itself (Ecc 1:9). Even nowadays there are those (not neccessarily SDA only) who to a much smaller degree hold influence over some people, predicting dates or time frames.

NOT that the prophetic word should be totally ignored as others might also suggest, but were I to find myself having a concrete influence over numerous followers and then be wrong? :help:

God willing that He would send Nathan the prophet, to open my eyes and repent rather than reason around something so false, when numerous other's can see it but I can't.

"To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is always before me. Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight-- That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge..." (Ps 51)

Basically I hope to be 'watching' myself first and foremost (what I accept as truth, what I don't accept as truth even from those who would be concidered to be teachers with very similiar doctrinal beliefs as my own). And then watching world events as they relate to scriptures that finally lead to Christ's return. Seeing both those aspects of 'watching' are instructed within the NT.

Cribstyl · Oct 9, 2009

BrightCandle said:
William Millers was indeed a message sent from heaven, even if he was wrong on the event, but not the date of 1844. Look at the global religious revival that it caused. Look at how even the disappointment lead to a sifting away of those who were not fully committed to Jesus. Look at how God lead those that remained to greater understanding of the Bible.

The third major post-disappointment Millerite group also claimed, like the Hale and Turner led group, that the October 22 date was correct. Rather than Christ returning invisibly, however, they came to view the event that took place on October 22, 1844 having been quite different. The theology of this third group appears to have had its beginnings as early as October 23, 1844the day after the Great Disappointment. On that day, during a prayer session with a group of Advent believers, Hiram Edson became convinced that light would be given and their disappointment explained.[12] Edsons experience led him into an extended study on the topic with O. R. L. Crosier and F. B. Hahn. They came to the conclusion that Miller's assumption that the sanctuary represented the Earth was in error. The sanctuary to be cleansed in Daniel 8:14 was not the earth or the church, but the sanctuary in heaven.[13] Therefore, the October 22 date marked not the Second Coming of Christ, but rather a heavenly event. Out of this third group arose the Seventh-day Adventist Church and this interpretation of the Great Disappointment forms the basis for the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine of the pre-Advent Divine Investigative Judgement. Their interpretations were published in early 1845 in the Day Dawn.

NumberOneSon · Oct 9, 2009

*Bump* for BrightCandle.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 10, 2009

Acts6:5 said:
*Bump* for BrightCandle.

Ditto

Ellen White, inspired author to Adventists, endorsed Miller's false message

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