Is it ok to kill homosexuals, witches, etc. because the Bible says to?

RealDealNeverstop said:

No, I was not talking about you at all. Davidx made a claim similar to yours so my post was only in response to him. I suggest slowing down a bit and look over the last page or so. If you do, no need to apologize for jumping the gun......it's already forgotten.

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Sorry for jumping the gun, then. You might want to follow suit.

Godschild87 said:

If you're new to discussions, you'll learn that most of them involve semantics or simply disagreeing in principle. Rarely is it actual objective evaluation of the evidence... kinda sad if you ask me.

I'll humor you though:
n.

1. The state or fact of knowing.
2. Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.
3. The sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned.
4. Learning; erudition: teachers of great knowledge.
5. Specific information about something.
6. Carnal knowledge.

Basically, I'm telling you you could have been more specific with what kind of knowledge you were talking about.

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I was more specific when you asked the first time,

"I never used the word knowledge. I said they know more about the kingdom, meaning they understand it more not that they had knowledge of the event."

Godschild87 said:

In post 60, I made the claim that people can make the Bible say what they want by ripping it out of context not by using proper interpretive methods. That claim hasn't changed one iota. You then asked me to give the framework for those methods, which I never claimed to be able to explain. I simply said I went to a Bible college. That had no implications with it, other than that I went to Bible college and know more than some people.

Then, out of the blue, you state this:



It's you who's putting words in my mouth.

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Someone claimed anyone can cherry pick the bible to suit their own desires and you responded by saying this cannot be done by using proper interpretive methods. I asked for the framework and you responded by giving broad highlights. When the request was made again you said you know how to use it but choose not to give specifics and that you require a verse to show how this method works which inherently means you claimed to have knowledge of this approach. When I point out the contradiction you then change your claim to say the method you speak of is strictly for your use. Now you are trying to claim you never said you have knowledge of proper interpretive methods.

david_x said:

I was more specific when you asked the first time,

"I never used the word knowledge. I said they know more about the kingdom, meaning they understand it more not that they had knowledge of the event."

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If someone understands 2+2=4 doesn't that also mean they have the knowledge that 2+2=4?

RealDealNeverstop said:

If someone understands 2+2=4 doesn't that also mean they have the knowledge that 2+2=4?

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Why are you still going at this? I gave you the answer, I did not mean knowledge.

RealDealNeverstop said:

Someone claimed anyone can cherry pick the bible to suit their own desires and you responded by saying this cannot be done by using proper interpretive methods. I asked for the framework and you responded by giving broad highlights. When the request was made again you said you know how to use it but choose not to give specifics and that you require a verse to show how this method works which inherently means you claimed to have knowledge of this approach. When I point out the contradiction you then change your claim to say the method you speak of is strictly for your use. Now you are trying to claim you never said you have knowledge of proper interpretive methods.

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I didn't say it was 'strictly for my use,' that's you putting words in my mouth again. I never claimed to be able to explain it. And I'm saying it's a heck of a lot easier for me to show how to use it than explain how it works. If you don't care for me to show it, then I don't see why you're complaining.

david_x said:

I was more specific when you asked the first time,

"I never used the word knowledge. I said they know more about the kingdom, meaning they understand it more not that they had knowledge of the event."

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You didn't read the definition, I'm afraid.

RealDealNeverstop said:

If you can't give the methodology then you cannot possibly provide the framework for the "proper
interpretive methods" you claimed to have. The indisputable evidence is your demand for a verse. This shows your starting point is not based on any proper interpretive method but only the verses being examined.

Of course you are free to accuse me of not working with people as the excuse. If it works for you......but I think others may see it as a poor attempt at deflection.

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Quit picking on the kid. Your almost 20 years older than him. Jeez.
Let me take a shot at this.

Yes, people misinterpret the Bible all the time, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. It isn't so much a matter of using a specific method as it is knowing your stuff. The Bible is said to "interpret itself". What this means is that, in a book this size that is proposed to never contradict itself, if there is dificulty in understanding a verse or to reveal the intended meaning of a particular excerpt, verse or word, one need only look elsewhere in the Bible for clarification.

Most people aren't quite educated enough to do this, so we put a little faith into other objective sources for our interpretation. Some examples of scholarly interpretative sources would be other ancient texts that offer further insight, archeology, linguists who are able to read and understand ancient texts, historians, theologians and a vast array of scholars of other disciplines.

The result of this massive undertaking of interpretation is orthodoxy. Orhtodoy is old, very old, and only changes slightly over time if new acheological finds shed light on a specific scripture or some other sort of discovery of historical significance is made that may result in the changing of a single word due to an updated understanding of ancient Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic or what have you.

For the lay person to understand the more complex scriptures and hopefully not go all Waco, Texas on us, these scholars have compiled their reasearch in volumes of books called commentaries.

There ya go. Does that adequately answer your question?

coastie said:

Quit picking on the kid. Your almost 20 years older than him. Jeez.
Let me take a shot at this.

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Go for it! But, hey, I'm only 16 years his junior.

Godschild87 said:

You didn't read the definition, I'm afraid.

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Dictionary says: to be familiar with.

If I say I don't mean knowledge, I probably don't mean knowledge.

david_x said:

Dictionary says: to be familiar with.

If I say I don't mean knowledge, I probably don't mean knowledge.

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Understanding IS knowledge. You don't get to go redefining terms just to suit your fancy.

Godschild87 said:

I'd not be so arrogant to say I know everything. But having been to school for 17 years, I'd like to think I know more than some.

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I assume that you know more than some.
For one thing, you are well versed in logic, and logical fallacies, able to identify them by name, so I assume that much of your analyzing is logical. That is a good thing. A lot of Christians often don't use the brain that God gave them, often times because it causes doubt in their beliefs.

But I also assume that you, like me, are not only teacher, but also a student, of life. You probably have things to teach me, and I may hopefully have an insight or 2 to offer you. If not me, then someone else. If we seek truth, we will continue to get closer to it. If we claim that we alone possess the truth, then we refuse to challenge our own beliefs, our own understanding, even when it is logically disproven by another.

May I ask - what do you teach?

Godschild87 said:

Children know more about the kingdom than anyone.

Knowing things is knowledge. Do I need to bust out a dictionary?

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Didn't you say that you teach children?
I teach adults, so, would you mind thinking about your class, about specific kids, and reflecting on "Children know more about the Kingdom than anyone"?
I agree with you, but as one who has worked for 17 years, works with children daily, maybe you have some insight about this that we may not have.

What about children do you think allows them to have more knowledge?
Why do we lose it when we grow up?
What do you believe "Unless you become like little children, you will not enter the Kingdom" means?

Not to derail, but I have a sincere question, since we are talking about interpretation.

I have prayed to God since I can remember. However, God actively responds to me. It is usually a thought, a voice that gets stronger the more that I listen to it. As a kid, it would say things like, "You know, that was a really mean thing to say." I would argue that the person was asking for it, or that it wasn't that bad compared to what they did to me, but the words weighed on my heart.

So, when I "take things to God in prayer," I spend a lot of time being quiet and listening. Sometimes, it is a strong thought right away that seems to be an answer to the question that I couldn't solve. Sometimes, it is a sudden understanding. Sometimes, it is a feeling of warmth and peace that comes over me. I have had at least 4 dreams where God appears and speaks to me, and 5 where angels come and deliver specific messages to me.

I have always assumed that God speaks like this to everyone, especially in the form of a quiet thought or voice within themselves.

Is this true?

That is why I say, "I research the internet when I am struggling over an issue, and find a number of pastors or other writers who speak on the topic, and quote Scripture. I search on explanations of the Scripture, getting as many different explanations as I can, whether I agree or disagree. I look at the translation, again, already having it done for me, and look at who spoke, to whom, when, and the culture of those being spoken to. (Understanding the culture of honor in dining with someone is very important to understand fully Christ eating with the sinners.) Then, I pray in English, and clearly state my question. I ask for discernment of what is of God, and what is of man, and especially what is of God and what is of me. I acknowledge that I am seeking God's truth, God's will, and admit to my own limited ability to understand. I state, for myself as well as for God, that I am seeking God's truth and will, and if I ask, I know that God shall answer. I then pray in tongues, allowing the HS to intercede for me in prayer, praying until I can feel that the Spirit has finished.

And then, I listen, and the answer comes.

Is this not the way most people practice their faith, their relationship, their discernment over interpretation of Scripture?

If not, do you mind explaining your method?

Is this adressed to me? If so, I'd like to prepare a really good answer for you since I wrote my one of my senior theses on this. But I'll need a day to do it. Would that be ok?

Godschild87 said:

Understanding IS knowledge. You don't get to go redefining terms just to suit your fancy.

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What? You're just being silly now. Understanding is not knowledge.

Beanieboy said:

Didn't you say that you teach children?
I teach adults, so, would you mind thinking about your class, about specific kids, and reflecting on "Children know more about the Kingdom than anyone"?

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I didn't say that, DavidX did.

I agree with you, but as one who has worked for 17 years, works with children daily, maybe you have some insight about this that we may not have.

What about children do you think allows them to have more knowledge?
Why do we lose it when we grow up?
What do you believe "Unless you become like little children, you will not enter the Kingdom" means?

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In my opinion, it always comes back to idealism. Kids don't care about 'reality', they care about what they want, and gosh darn it it's going to happen! I can relate to that, because I've retained a lot of that. Thus my username.

Beanieboy said:

I assume that you know more than some.
For one thing, you are well versed in logic, and logical fallacies, able to identify them by name, so I assume that much of your analyzing is logical. That is a good thing. A lot of Christians often don't use the brain that God gave them, often times because it causes doubt in their beliefs.

But I also assume that you, like me, are not only teacher, but also a student, of life. You probably have things to teach me, and I may hopefully have an insight or 2 to offer you. If not me, then someone else.

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Being logical has its downfalls... like the ability to take a compliment... I'll go with a simple thanks this time.

If we seek truth, we will continue to get closer to it. If we claim that we alone possess the truth, then we refuse to challenge our own beliefs, our own understanding, even when it is logically disproven by another.

May I ask - what do you teach?

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What I do is more role modeling and mentoring than it is teaching. I don't have a class, though in January I'll be teaching 4th-6th graders about something. I've narrowed it to something about community, or- ironically enough- methods of Bible study.

david_x said:

What? You're just being silly now. Understanding is not knowledge.

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1. The quality or condition of one who understands; comprehension.
2. The faculty by which one understands; intelligence. See synonims at reason.

1. The state or fact of knowing.
2. Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.
3. The sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned.
4. Learning; erudition: teachers of great knowledge.
5. Specific information about something.
6. Carnal knowledge.

The dictionary disagrees with you.

Beanieboy said:

I have always assumed that God speaks like this to everyone, especially in the form of a quiet thought or voice within themselves.

Is this true?

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I don't typically rely on that when it comes to interpreting the Bible. Hardly ever, actually. I've only done that with two issues.

Is this not the way most people practice their faith, their relationship, their discernment over interpretation of Scripture?

If not, do you mind explaining your method?

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I don't usually rely on the Holy Spirit, or God in general for that matter, to interpret the Bible. I usually use what I already know about the Bible- its context, and what's written in other places- to determine what it says. I take a highly objective approach. In doing that, I suppose, I miss out on some of the lessons I could otherwise learn. I'd rather study the background of the author, book, time period, language, and usage of a passage than try to 'feel' the answer.
I've always used the 'fact faith feeling' train when it comes to Bible interpretation: Faith is based on facts- the facts found in the Bible- thus, fact takes priority over faith, and faith takes priority over feelings. Feelings should be trusted last because they can be wrong, and can contradict the facts. The text comes first.

Godschild87 said:

I don't typically rely on that when it comes to interpreting the Bible. Hardly ever, actually. I've only done that with two issues.



I don't usually rely on the Holy Spirit, or God in general for that matter, to interpret the Bible. I usually use what I already know about the Bible- its context, and what's written in other places- to determine what it says. I take a highly objective approach. In doing that, I suppose, I miss out on some of the lessons I could otherwise learn. I'd rather study the background of the author, book, time period, language, and usage of a passage than try to 'feel' the answer.
I've always used the 'fact faith feeling' train when it comes to Bible interpretation: Faith is based on facts- the facts found in the Bible- thus, fact takes priority over faith, and faith takes priority over feelings. Feelings should be trusted last because they can be wrong, and can contradict the facts. The text comes first.

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It's cause for concern someone who claims Faith is based on fact is going to actually teach young people about biblical hermeneutics.

Heb. 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."


Scripture clearly states Faith is not based on fact. This is not intended to sound mean or belittling but I have to say it does not seem you are prepared to give instruction on interpretive methods. Even if it is volunteer work it can be quite expensive to unintentionally mislead people.