What message are we trying to send?

coastie said:

So how has this influenced your understanding of Christianity?

I think the God's grace is the message that we should be getting across, not the whole "I'm okay, you're okay," mantra. That's pretty destructive.

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I don't have to change a thing to be loved by God. I am loved by him right now, and nothing I do will separate me from that love.

The mantra of "I'm okay, but I expect you to be perfect", setting the other up for assured failure, setting a standard you can't live up to yourself, is not destructive?

Or simply saying, "We are sinners, and our best actions are filthy rags to God" is inspiring? Basically, it's giving a mixed message: we are disgusting to God, and Jesus loves you.

Do you love anything or anyone that you find disgusting?

Do you tell a child, "I love you, despite the fact that you aren't walking perfectly the first time. You aren't perfect, but I have such a big heart, I am going to love you anyway."

Does that sound like love, or condescending?

I believe those that preach that are really saying, "You aren't perfect. In fact , you disgust me, but at least God loves you."

b&wpac4 said:

What could non-Jews do to be reconciled to God before Jesus?

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This isn't directed only at Christians. It is open to any religion.

Judiasm, if I am not mistaken, doesn't try and make Jewish converts, and in fact, actually discourages people from converting unless they are going into it with the right reasons, and believe that everyone, not just Jews, go to heaven, but that those that follow God, or the Jewish faith, are in higher levels of Heaven. Is that right?

Amazon.com: Martin Zender Goes to Hell: A Critical Look at an Un-Criticized Doctrine (9780970984913): Martin Zender: Books
Martin Zender, a Christian, examines the scripture, and says that hell is not a place where people spend eternity, but more of a place where people go and are "cleansed by the fire" so that they can enter heaven.

What concerns me are those that seem unhappy that some are not going to spend eternity in hell, because they imply that the other deserves it, or that they don't want to spend eternity with "those people."

One Christian, when arguing my salvation, said, "If there are any homosexuals in heaven, my mouth is going to drop." If every one is forgiven and drawn to God, I will rejoice, not be shocked, offended, or angered. If one can only enjoy heaven if they know that it is some kind of exclusive elite club of which they are a member, and they are living in luxury while another whom they looked down on is suffering excrutiating pain, I question if such a person would be looking through the Gates of Heaven from the inside, or from the outside, taunting those who are in, mistaken about which side they are on. Once they realize that they are on the outside, they may even say in anger, "well, I for one and not going to spend eternity with people like that!"

The reason they can't enter heaven is not because the gates are locked. The gates are are open, and swing open freely. The problem is that the idea of being on the same level, of admitting that you don't deserve to be there, and yet, God calls you, that God loves you without ever having to earn that love, that God loves you enough to even give his own life for you, loves you enough to become of lowly status, of lowly form, and serve you as a servant, asking if he may wash your feet. And no matter what we do, God never leaves our side, and his love for us never stops. We love others, and he loves us. We act in selfishness, and he loves us. We sin against others, and he loves us. We are doubtful, and he loves us. We have faith, and he loves us.

And we understand what real unconditional love is.

There are many Christians that, rather than filled with love, seemed to be filled with bitterness. I'm unsure why. Maybe they are unhappy. Maybe they are the son that stayed home, and ask the Father why there was never a party for them, but there is a big party for the Prodigal Son who left and disobeyed, angered that the Father is not more angry, not rejecting, not punishing the Prodigal Son. He sees the happiness and joy in the Father, and wonders where that love and joy is in him for his brother's return, instead of resentment. He wonders why the Father doesn't have this same joy for him, which he does.

Some seem envious, wanting to secretly do many of the things that they condemn, I often guess, possibly full of lust, or selfishness, or longing for pleasures of the flesh, like drinking or strip clubs. I wonder if they feel cages, chained and see the "sinner" as free. It's certainly an illusion of freedom, of happiness, of enjoyment and pleasure, a Grass is Greener parlour trick.

Maybe they see those who are happy being disobedient as stumbling blocks, as temptations to fall themselves, or maybe they realize that maybe these people truly are happy.

Maybe they have been taught that God desires only sacrifice, suffering, and the more you suffer, you go without, the more misery you endure, the more you please God. That is a trick of Satan to take away the joys of life, because God wants us to rejoice and be happy.

Maybe they question their own Salvation. I laugh, as I'm sure God did, when, despite knowing God for as long as I could remember, praying my own prayers in solitude even at 4 or 5, asked Jesus to come into my heart at 8, and again at 10, and again at 12, and again at 14 or so. I wasn't sure if it "took." I wasn't sure if Jesus thought me worthy, or if he was busy taking care of other stuff and not listening to a frightened boy in a small town that was warned against the torture chamber of hell, and how all of us were in danger of being condemned to it unless we were Christian - and the definition was constantly being changed and defined by others. "Oh, yes, you may THINK that you are a Christian, but come Judgment Day...", as I folded my little boy hands, pleading, "Please don't kill me, God! Please don't send me to hell! I really want to be a Christian!!", and even then, doubted myself, doubted my Salvation, that may not have been the perfect, magic words that would make it "work." To be sure, I didn't feel any different, so, maybe Jesus was sleeping. Maybe I would go to hell on a technicality. Maybe I blasphemied the HS, even though I was unsure what that even meant. Maybe I was born into the wrong denomination. Maybe I needed to be baptized as an adult, like the baptists. Maybe....

That was the message. Does Jesus love me? Maybe. Will he come into my heart? Maybe, if I am worthy. I better hope so. Will I go to hell? Possibly, because none of us deserve heaven.

I was offered fear. I was offered doubt. I wasn't offered joy, or peace. I wasn't offered Blessed Assurance, even if the accuser claimed to have a Golden Ticket themselves. I might not be so lucky. I feared God. I was afraid of God, who would possibly take one look at me, shrug with a "meh?" and kick me into the Lake of Fire without much of a second thought.

I was afraid, especially as a child, to make any mistakes, and any sins, no matter how petty, I thought put my eternity at risk, and so every moment was one of fear, of transgressing, and being disqualified.

And each Sunday, I would go to church, look up at the cross, think of the God who demanded that his own son die to "be even" and forgive mankind. I would see not a God of love, of peace, as Jesus was, but one of anger, of vengence, of destruction, a God whom I feared and simply lived trying not to anger him.

After I was prayed over for tongues, I began to understand God much differently. God was gentle. God's voice was comforting, encouraging, guiding. It was quiet, and the more I listened to it, the louder it got. I saw that if I would shut my mouth for 5 minutes, God would actually answer me in thought, in very strong thought which I recognized as not my own. As the Spirit interceded for me, I saw that what the world needs is not to be chastised and told how terrible they are, because most people do bad things because they believe that they are terrible, don't love themselves, think themselves are unlovable, and especially not loved by God.

In not being able to love themselves, they can't love their neighbor as themselves, because they don't know what that means.

Think about the sinners Jesus dined with. Why do you think a woman becomes a prostitute? Because she has so much love for herself? Or because she is told that she is worthless, begins to believe it, and then mistreats herself, because she thinks she deserves it? A criminal may think themselves bad, and not deserving of anything besides a thug life.

But when Christ showed the sinners that God cared for them, that he loved them now, even when they were sinners, that they simply had to accept his love, admit that God loves them and believe it, people changed. Zaccheus changed. The adulteress changed. The woman who washed his feet with her hair changed, because they felt loved by God, and so, loved themselves, and were then able to love their neighbor effortlessly.

The NT talks about the importance of love incessantly, saying that it is the most important thing to pray for. Without love, we have nothing. Jesus said that we would be known by all men by our love. 1 John 4 7-8 says that if we love, we know and are born of God, but if we do not love, we do not know God. It's that important.

However, what is often preached is only sin, and the importance of not sinning. If one loves his neighbor as himself, he no longer sins, because all laws are fulfilled in this commandment. However, if one simply focuses on sins to obey, but doesn't have love, doesn't treat others in love, with compassion, with generosity and kindness, they are nothing more than a clanging gong to God.

On Mother's Day, my mom used to say, "All I want for Mother's Day is for you two boys to get along." John was two years older, and we were constantly fighting, verbally, physically, and kind of hated each other. I would say, "Well, what do you REALLY want." She would answer, "That is all that I want."

I wasn't satisfied with the answer, but as an adult, I look back at that. My mother would be happiest if we would act loving toward each other. It would please her to see us helping one another, and building each other up. Instead, she had to deal with us cutting each other down, hurting one another, and constantly trying to break it up. It made her really sad.

If all I can say is, "I didn't punch John today," it sounds as if I wanted to, but didn't only for her. It would be better than nothing, I suppose, but what would make her much happier would have been, "I had some candy, and I shared it with John, because he didn't have any, and because he is my brother, and I love him." It would have pleased her to see us encouraging each other in sports, or laughing at each other's jokes. It would have pleased her to see us volunteer to lend a hand to someone who needed it before they asked, or to give a little more than the other asked.

That, I believe, is the true will of God. Not Sinning is not God's biggest concern. Rather, living consciously where we are acting in love towards others, helping one another gladly as a way of worshipping God, asking no reward for our good deeds, offering a listening ear to one who is troubled, offering a hand to someone who is moving, defending someone who is being picked on by a group, or giving freely and asking for nothing in return, save to Pay it Forward to someone else. That is the "Thy Will be done in Heaven as it is on Earth" that he is talking about.

It's easy to "not sin," especially if we focus on the sins of others. Sure, I look at inappropriate content, and I gossip about other people, but at least I don't molest children, or have sex with strangers, like SOME people...

When we do this, we forgive our sin, or think that our sin, compared to another, somehow makes it less noticeable, makes us less of a sinner in comparison. We begin to forgive ourselves, if we even admit to sinning, when we start accusing others of being "sinners", implying that we aren't. We shrug off our petty sins, such as an unkind word, flipping someone off in traffic, or stealing someone's lunch at work, saying to ourselves, "Hey, it isn't like I killed someone, like murderers do. That is sin. That is a big sin. All I did was steal someone's lasagna."

But what have we done actively in love? Have we brought food for the office? Have we wished someone a happy birthday? Have we asked someone who looks upset what was wrong? Have we held our temper when we were frustrated? Have we made someone new feel at home? Have we encouraged another, rather than use them or sabotage them for our own gain? Have we given credit where it was due?

I think the latter is far more God's will that simply worrying about breaking a rule, and especially, acting like a lawyer about those rules, such as, "Thou shall not murder" is different that "thou shall not kill," with the intent to try to find a loophole to deliberately disobey, but justify it to ourselves as staying in the confines of perfect obedience.

I don't want to be murdered or killed.
Therefore, to love my neighbor as myself, I can neither murder, nor kill them. Fortunately for me, it's not like that was on my "Things to Do" list this weekend.

Steelerbred33 said:

I really believe a lot of people feel condemned in Christianity because all they hear is how bad they are and how much they sin.

And I am reminded of my favorite quote:

We cannot change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.
~Carl Jung

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I tried to commit suicide (very poorly, fortunately) because the message that because I was gay, i was an abomination, hated by God, and deserved death. Others unfortunately succeed. This is one example of the result of this kind of message.

What religion do you affiliate yourself with? Or do you have none?

btw - very nice quote. I agree whole heartedly. Condemnation usually puts us in shame so that we don't want to face it. If we face it, we can address it, examine it, and consider how it can be changed. We can talk about it. Condemnation from others is usually about power, such as Anita Bryant trying so hard to keep discrimination against gays legal.

She claimed that it was to protect children, but it didn't protect children at all, but rather, taught that discrimination is ok to practice, that God approves of treating others like this, or that some people don't deserve to be treated in love and respect. Basically, "Love your neighbor as yourself" was being campaigned against, ironically, in the name of God.

And yet, I have learned that for such people, they need my prayers and blessings more than anyone.

coastie said:

That sounds good to me. What was it that we were disagreeing on?

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I think we are in agreement on a number of points. I may just have been elaborating, to make myself clear.

Do you have kids? I do, and they can be serious punks. Even if they turn out to be (God forbid) total screw ups, detestable, inhuman creatures I know I'd still love them and my heart would ache for them. God's a loving father, not Pollyanna. The message is beautiful that even lost to sin and in total rebellion, God still welcomes us with open arms if only we would take that tiny step of faith.

Would you seriously avoid telling a child that they aren't perfect. I'm not here to be my childs' buddy, I'm their father.

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I don't have children. However, I am a teacher. My students will sometimes take a test, and then, look deflated, seeing only what they missed, and not what they got right.

Do I tell them "You aren't perfect", as if that is what I expect of them? Of course not. I am not perfect. However, I tell them instead, "It's good to make mistakes. Why? Because you learn from them. Look at your mistakes, and see them as an opportunity to learn. See what you are doing wrong. Then, the next time, see if you have learned it, and have taken another step towards perfection. Only if you refuse to learn from the mistake, and repeat it over and over, do you have anything to feel bad about.

I also point out that when a toddler takes his first step, which is better? Saying, "Good try!" when he falls down, and praising him for his steps, or assuming his steps are the expectation, and then berating him, "Smooth move!" when he falls. "First day with the new feet? You look like Frankenstein walking!"

The child will just stop trying, because it is better to avoid ridicule and punishment by doing nothing, than to try and only be punished.

No, I'n going to have to disagree with you. The message is actually: "We are all depraved (including me) and in desperate need of salvation."

The ability to humbly approach God with a contrite heart is the key to confession and repentance.

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I agree that we are all in need of God's Salvation, but I don't think because I am "saved" I am somehow superior to anyone, neither in my eyes, or the eyes of God. I simply have a relationship with him, talk to him, and he to me. I tell him that I wish to be his servant. Am I depraved? I refuse to meditate on myself, and see myself as a sinner, as an evil person, because then, with that kind of image, being evil will simply seem second nature. Rather, I meditate, acknowledging that I am a Child of God. I envision myself as a lamp, and God, the light, illuminating the darkness. I ask the HS to search me and find anywhere where the glass can be cleaner, and God can shine brighter. Then, having that image in my head, I walk into the world, thinking of Christ, who said, You are the Light of the World, you are the City on a Hill, you are the Salt of the Earth.

I walk into the world reminding myself that I am a temple of the Lord.

I don't ask you to agree or change your view. I simply find that for me, with a much more positive image, being positive, acting in love, seems effortless, rather than impossible, seems natural, rather than against my sinful nature. Knowing that God is within me, I know that all things are possible. Knowing that God loves me very much, I love myself, and I want to share that love with others, want others to know love. And because I know that I cannot be separated from the love of God by any sin I may commit, nor can I earn that love by anything I do, but that it simply is, and is eternal, I walk without fear. I know that I may stumble, acknowledge it, and learn from it. And I am thankful of the love given to me, rather than earned, and so, can extend that love to others, rather than demand that they earn it from me.

Sad but true. People think the world would be better off without them

coastie said:

So let me clarify something. You say that you are not perfect but you are also not a sinner.

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Did I say that? If I did, I misspoke. In fact, in reading the book, "Bulletproof Faith," the author spoke of praying, as the tax collector did, "Almighty, Holy and Merciful Lord, have mercy on me, a lowly sinner." I had a problem with how negative it sounded, seeing myself as a sinner, rather than a Child of God, rather than a forgiven sinner who has Jesus' Salvation.

Nonetheless, I prayed the prayer, seeking God's understanding from it. Rather than feeling condemned, I felt love. Rather than feeling that God was saying, "You had BETTER ask for forgiveness, scumbag!", I strong felt and knew the mercy of God, who, in me humbling myself, in me acknowledging that I have far to go, was no longer condemned, but forgiven, and loved very much. I was even allowed to forgive myself.

However, as I walk around during the day, I think of myself, not as a sinner, not as one who just sins all day, but rather, one who allows God to live through me, to touch others through me. I see myself as a Child of God (as God himself called me once in meditation.) During that meditation, I apologized for possibly straying, although, even in Buddhism, I spoke with God daily. I apologized for questioning the faith. I apologized even for possibly being wrong about being gay, but my relationship brought me so much joy, so much love, and so much growth. In response, I had a kind of day dream where God spoke. He said, "You have never left me, nor I you. I have known you since infancy, and you have every right to call yourself my child, a Child of God. However, it is you that must pick up the title, and wear it. I stand before you always, my hands outstretched, offering you love. You have been lied to, have been fooled to believe that you are not worthy of that love, don't deserve it, or that I don't offer it to you. And yet, here I stand, arms outstretched, asking you only to receive my love for you. It is offered in mercy, and not earned."

And I understood that if it was not earned, nothing could ever make me lose it either, and suddenly, I was filled with love, was no longer filled with any self deprecation, was not longer filled with an ounce of fear that maybe the person claiming that I wasn't Christian, that God didn't love me, was right. I knew, and was so overjoyed.

I acknowledge that I am a sinner, but that is not what God sees. He sees me, Craig, my soul, my beautiful soul, just as I see the beautiful soul of others, rather than a person's faults. I acknowledge that I have short comings, and tolerate the shortcomings of others, rather than demand perfection from others that I cannot achieve myself. I am forgiving of their frailties, and rejoicing, encouraging and praising of their gifts which come from God. I focus on why I love them, not their faults. If their faults cause them to stumble, I offer constructive criticism only to edify, and once said, I let it go, rather than harp on it. I often point out to people why they are so wonderful to me, because all I and most people hear are insults, rude comments, and barbs that are thrown at one another daily without a second thought, while kind words are held back, mostly in fear.

I am not a lost sheep, but have been found. Another Christian may insist that I am lost, but I know better. I am found, and I say that proudly, not because of my own doing, but because of my pride and love and joy of God, and what he has done with my life, the wisdom that he offers me, the love that he gives freely, and the healing that he has done for my very soul.

I am a sinner, but I am not only a sinner. I am not seen as a sinner by God, but as his Child, as a Child of God. He sees me not for the things that I do wrong, not for the mistakes that I make, but as the soul that seeks him as he seeks for me. He sees me as the New Creation he has created, not the Old Adam that I have shed slowly over the years. He sees me as the divine being that I was intended to be, and will be in heaven.

I acknowledge myself as a sinner at specific times - in prayer in humility to God, to humble myself, and acknowledge that I don't deserve his love, his forgiveness, or his mercy, and yet, he gives it to me because he is love.

And I also acknowledge that I am a sinner to anyone who is not a Christian, any one who God asks me to reach out to as a Fisher of Man, to bring to him, and awaken the God within them. I do this, not as, "YOU need to be forgiven. I AM forgiven, so YOU need to be still!", but rather, "In all honesty, I am not better than you. I try to be good, to be loving, to act in love, as I'm sure that you do. However, God has sent me to you, perhaps as a prayer of yours answered. I am nothing but a delivery boy. You don't have to do anything too earn forgiveness, to earn God's love, or to have a relationship with God. That is already done. All you have to do is simply accept that right now, Jesus loves you. Right now, God can, and does, love you with all his heart. You simply have to accept it, and admit it, and receive it, and thank him."

In doing this, I acknowledge that I am no better. If two men have stolen money from a master, is the man who asks forgiveness and receives it, really any better than the other? Should he think himself holier, simply because he asked forgiveness? Should he demand that the other ask for forgiveness, rather than witness the love of the master in coming to him, asking forgiveness, and being granted that forgiveness, stressing the Master, the Master's love, the Master's amazing mercy, the Master's amazing ability to forgive despite being unworthy of it, rather than exalting the man for "earning" anything through his plea to be forgiven, exalting himself for being a holy man in being forgiven, or implying that he deserves to be forgiven?

You must have redefined what a "sinner" is. I'll give it to you straight though, we are all sinners but some people are confused thinking that being a sinner means you have to do some certain level of sin that's really bad or you have to not be a Christian. Nope, we're all sinners even if we've only sinned once in our lives. Its similar to how a sexual predator, even 50 years after they committed the crime, is still labled a sexual predator. They may well be forgiven by God, destined for eternal life in heaven and a totally different person, but they were still guilty of the crime and still a sinner. So dont' let the term throw you off. And, for the most part, we sin every single day, so how much more are we deserving of the label "sinner," than the "sexual predator" who is labeled as a predator for life?

Anyway, the message is: all have sinned (therefore all are sinners) and fall short of the glory of God, but God had a plan to fix that and here it is.......

That's it. The gospel message is thought provoking but simple and that is all we are trying do when we present it to people.

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Do you believe that Jesus called people "swindler" or "thief" or "murderer" or "tramp" or "harlot" or "hooker" when he saw them?

If I kill someone, I am a murderer, even if I ask for forgiveness, or don't live a "murderous lifestyle." I kill someone one time, and I am a murderer.
However, if I murdered someone, and then, was found by Jesus in prison, and became a New Creation, is it just for you to then look at me after I am released, and see me only as a murderer, when you yourself sin, and rather than call yourself a liar, or a lusting man, or a glutton, or a sloth, or whatever sin you actively do, or have even done in the past, forgive yourself, and are forgiven by the Father?

In looking at another, and saying, "You are a sinner!", you imply that you are not a sinner. If one says, "You are a sinner! I'm a sinner, yeah, but I'm forgiven!", one is still exalting themselves, as if they are deserving of forgiveness, or that God loves them more because they have asked for forgiveness. One Christian even claimed, "God ONLY loves his children!" If that is true, the lost have no hope, and God doesn't want us to be fishers of Men, but rather, let the fish meet their own demise. Anyone who says such a lie has no understanding of God. God loves the world. He sent Christ to die for the world. And Christians should acknowledge that it is Christ's commandment, not option, that Christians love everyone, love the world, and care for them as much as God, not shrug and say, "well, I'm forgiven and saved, and that's all that matters."

If one says, "You are a sinner! You need forgiveness! But me? Christians are perfect - just forgiven!", the one is saying this subtext - you shouldn't sin. I sin, but I am forgiven, so it doesn't really count. You should live more perfect than I do, and failing that, at least ask for forgiveness.

What is wrong with that?
I have a partner. If I lie to him, I will say that I am sorry, and ask forgiveness. However, I won't shrug it off, and say, "Yeah, I'm not perfect, but he'll forgive me, so I don't really worry about it. You, however..."
No. I am thankful that he would forgive me, and try not to hurt him again. I would NEVER EVER tell someone else, who has deceived their spouse, but not been caught, that "they need to ask for forgiveness, like I DID!", and make it seem like I did something noble. I would see the person as my equal. If they asked for my advice, I would tell how my lie hurt my partner, what it did to me, what it did to our trust, etc. However, I would allow the person to make their own decision.

I would be thankful of my partner's forgiveness, which I didn't deserve, and would demonstrate that by being forgiving of another making a mistake in their life.

My partner wouldn't then refer to me as "liarboy" or beanieocchio, or anything like that, but would still see me as Beanieboy. He would accept the fact that people make mistakes, and when he trespassed against me, I would remember his forgiveness for me. I would see him as someone who is merciful, not just a person who makes mistakes. He would see me as a person that tries his best, but sometimes misses the mark, and acknowledge when I was being painfully honest in a difficult situation, rather than taking the easy way out and lying. And we would grow.

If he couldn't see anything good in me, I would be miserable. If I was even living up to a 95% grade of good, if he only saw the 5% of bad, I would feel frustrated, discouraged, or set up to fail. I would feel that he was putting impossible expectations on me. I would feel that he was demanding perfection that he couldn't live up to himself.

And I wouldn't want to be around him. I would only feel constantly judged, constantly looked at with scrutiny, my loving actions overlooked, and my pettiest of faults, my speck in my eye, exaggerated in its importance, while a 2x4 projected from his own, threatening to poke my eye out, rather than help me in any way.

After I received tongues, the Spirit, not me, began to change me. It moved throughout me, and challenged the things I did that were harmful to myself, to others, or selfish. It was God's love that allowed me to see what I needed to ask for forgiveness for. For me personally, I had to apologize for spending so many years thinking myself a sinner, a person not worthy of love from anyone, for years of self deprecation, of self hatred. I had to ask forgiveness for hating the gift of my life, my soul, that God treasured so much, that he valued so much, that he created because, well, because he thought I might enjoy it. I had to apologize for believing that God couldn't love me, being told that by so many in the media, quoting Leviticus. I had to apologize for even the idea or plan to kill myself, thinking that was what God wanted. I had to apologize for the years of refusing to forgive myself for being gay, or rather, for being, for existing itself. And I had to ask for forgiveness for asking God to change what he created me to be, desiring to be something else, someone else, because I wanted to have an easier life, be more accepted, and not live in fear of the World and the Church as well. And I had to apologize for waiting so long to believe God, despite having song, "Jesus loves me". In not loving myself, I was unable to receive love, and so, God just stood there, arms outstetched, just as Christ hung on the cross, arms outstetched, saying, "Now? Now do you believe me? I will give up my life for you to get you to understand that I love you. Simply accept my love. That's all. And I will change you."

I clearly acknowledge that I am a sinner, in that I sin, willingly, as we all do, and that I am loved by God, and so, love others. However, in saying that I am only a sinner, I imply that I am still lost. Rather, I acnowledge forgiveness to stress God's mercy, that I am a forgiven sinner, and I forgive others in active thanksgiving of that gift. I acknowledge that I am a Child of God, not because I deserve it, but to remind me that God loves me, and nothing will separate me from that love, so that I will actively be reminded to love others first, without asking it to be earned. I acknowledge that I am a heavenly soul, created in God's image, one that is capable of showing the love of God, and that I actively live each moment as a reflection of God within me, and allow God to be seen in my eyes, heart, and life. I acknowledge that despite being human, that through God, all things are possible, and I can move mountains with even a mustard seed of faith, because it is God who does these things through me, as an instrument. I acknowledge that I can live in the Kingdom of Heaven now, rather than needing to die, and that I can be, and am, with God now, because he lives with me.

And as I live each moment, I imagine myself as a lantern, and God the flame. In doing this, I remember to honor myself, because it is a temple of God. I remember to honor God by my thought, words, and actions, because I am his temple. To simply say, "I am a sinner", to imagine myself as a suety lantern that is black with tar and not able to allow light to come out, that is not a Light of the World, but simply a being worthy of shame who should hide, who should live each moment with guilt, with sorrow, with remorse, I represent a Christian life as one void of happiness, void of joy, void of fun, void of anything pleasurable, and one filled with sorrow, guilt, and low self esteem, disgusting even ourselves.

This is not the "peace that passes all understanding," the joy of 1 Corinthians 13. It is not the Light of the World. It's the Debbie Downer of Devotion.

coastie said:

Anyway, the message is: all have sinned (therefore all are sinners) and fall short of the glory of God, but God had a plan to fix that and here it is.......

That's it. The gospel message is thought provoking but simple and that is all we are trying do when we present it to people.

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That is what I have been taught.

However, in devotion, this is what God taught me:
The message is - I love you, and I want you to acknowledge and accept it - to say, "I accept and receive your love." And then, I want you to, in turn, love others.

I argued, "noooooo, that's too simple." However, I remembered what Christ said: The Two Greatest Commandments were to love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.

I asked about God's demand of Christ's death, and Christ's death was not a ransom, not an unreasonable "ok, we're even now" kind of thing. If that were true, Herod could have just killed baby Jesus when he was born, and that would have sufficed.

Rather, it is man who wanted to kill Jesus. Jesus threatened those in power. Jesus threatened those who were openly holy but dead inside, because he humbled them, and took away their power over others, and their status of honor.He took away their power of authority to control people by burdening them with the law. And because he challenged man to actually love, he was killed. He allowed his own life to be taken away as a sign of how far he was willing to go.

I remember after receiving tongues, hearing about a story about a guy in my art class. He wasn't Christian, or very serious about it anyway, but decided to go to a Christian weekend trip with some young people in the group. The group was praying together. However, it was usual for the HS to move through them. For some reason, no one felt the HS at all. No one was moved to prophesy, to have the spirit speak a word to the group...Nothing. However, they continued to pray, some even in English at this point, when someone pointed out how odd it was that the Spirit wasn't moving among them. The guy began to cry. He is a tough guy, but he cried just the same, finally saying, "It's me. It's me! The Spirit isn't coming because I'm here! I'm keeping the HS from coming because I am unholy, and unworthy!" A person next to him said, "That's not true. Do you want to receive the Holy Spirit?" He cried, "Yes!" So she told him to simply ask for God to fill him with his Spirit, and thank him. He did, and immediately starting praying in tongues.

He had the message that the physician only comes for the well, because they alone are worthy. However, the physician comes for the sick, to heal them, because they need him the most. But, is it any surprise that he believed this?

On another site, I decided to simply identify as Buddhist, because I got tired of constantly having a debate over how one could possibly be gay and Christian. I rarely was allowed to talk about anything else, and when I did, it was always brought back to homosexuality.

They constantly told me that I needed to denounce and ask for forgiveness for my homosexuality. Then, and only then, could I be forgiven. Then, and only then, would I be saved.

Why do I bring this up? For two important reasons:
1. They implied that I had to earn my salvation. I had to make myself a new creation. I had to change myself, not God. Then, when I "left my gay lifestyle", and repented, they, and God, would accept me, and I would be saved.
2. I was Buddhist. I referred to God occasionally, but never to Christianity. I said a number of times that I was Buddhist, and not Christian, because I was unclear of how I felt about the religion itself. This seemed to be of no consequence. I didn't have to ask Jesus into my heart. I didn't have to have an active relationship with God. I didn't have to humble myself before God, and take a role as his servant, to serve him.

I simply had to "stop being gay".

Even when I pointed this out, they stressed how leaving/refraining from homosexuality was of the utmost importance, my first priority.

Were I to be able to make myself into a new creation, were able to become a better person on my own, were able to change myself for the better, of what use is Christ?
And if we put another's sin above their salvation, and claim that only through the ceasing of sin can we be saved, we condemn ourselves, actively sinning every day, forgiven or otherwise. We also imply that we earn our way into heaven, earn salvation, and disgrace Christ's sacrifice, and God's mercy. And in putting such an impossible request upon someone, that they turn from sin, and "sin no more", knowing that they could probably never live up to such a demand of perfection, the would-be convert may walk away sadly, thinking that they will never be able to be Christian, because they can never be the person of perfection imposed upon them by those who falsely claim to have attained it.
What's worse, knowing Christ is active in our life, is active in all of the good that is created within us, we demand of the person who does not have Christ to go off and achieve this "perfection" by themselves, when we rely on Christ to transform us. We imply that God can't stand sin, or sinners, and only one must become pure to be accepted by God, when he accepts us and loves us while we are yet sinners.

The lost lamb has come back to the gate, and we have convinced them that the Good Shepherd does not welcome them.

In doing so, we only serve Satan.

brightmorningstar said:

To Beanieboy,

But that is the gospel, and nor is it a mixed message for those who fully believe the gospel. It can only be a mixed message if one doesn’t fully accept the gospel or only accepts one half of it.

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The Sheep and Goat were divided on how they acted in love for others. The Goats may say, "but I go to Church? I'm a Christian. Yeah, I didn't care for your neighbor as myself, didn't feed aother, but I am Christian, and saved, right?
He will tell them, "I never knew you."

The question for you is that if we are not filthy rags, what do we have to be saved from? The answer according to Jesus NT teaching is that we die in sin. Your reason is not the same and I note you provided no scripture either.

Again, the gospel is not about what we think and feel, but the truth of what God has done.

Again its not about who preaches and what they feel about others, but the truth of what God has done. Your argument is based on people's feelings and not on the truth of God's word.

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If we shrug our shoulders and say, "why should I love my neighbor." as Christ commanded, then, hasn't he completely missed the point?

brightmorningstar said:

To Beanieboy,

But that is the gospel, and nor is it a mixed message for those who fully believe the gospel. It can only be a mixed message if one doesn’t fully accept the gospel or only accepts one half of it.

Click to expand...

The Sheep and Goat were divided on how they acted in love for others. The Goats may say, "but I go to Church? I'm a Christian. Yeah, I didn't care for your neighbor as myself, didn't feed aother, but I am Christian, and saved, right?
He will tell them, "I never knew you."

The question for you is that if we are not filthy rags, what do we have to be saved from? The answer according to Jesus NT teaching is that we die in sin. Your reason is not the same and I note you provided no scripture either.

Again, the gospel is not about what we think and feel, but the truth of what God has done.

Again its not about who preaches and what they feel about others, but the truth of what God has done. Your argument is based on people's feelings and not on the truth of God's word.

Click to expand...

If we shrug our shoulders and say, "why should I love my neighbor." as Christ commanded, then, hasn't he completely missed the point?