What message are we trying to send?

Beanieboy

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Recently, I saw a Bus Stop Bible Study sign that said, "Can God forgive even me? Yes."

The shot was some kids on a campus on a nice day, some of them just napping on the lawn between classes.

What the message seems to be is: God forgives you.

So, picture this. I walk up to you, and I say, "You know, I know that you have done a lot of bad things, but, I'm a good guy, and I forgive you man."

You think, "what did I do?"

I say, "Lots of stuff. Everything that you have ever done against others, I forgive you."

You think, " What bad stuff?"

I say, "Just tell me you are sorry."

You say, "For what?"

I say, "Your sin."

This is the message that Christ sent - he taught people that God loved the world so much that he sent his son to us to teach us how to live, and how to love each other. He came to help us, to save us, and not condemn us.

Instead, what is taught is that we are bad, and need forgiveness. Once that is taught, then other people are bad, and now they need forgiveness, so that they can be good people like us.

The teachings of Buddhism and practices far more mirror what Christ taught than modern day Christianity, that demands the "sinners" to admit they are bad, they are guilty, and beg for forgiveness.

However, Christ told the story of the Prodigal Son. The son leaves, and after exhausting his money, with nowhere to go, reluctantly and fearfully returns home, waiting for the father's anger, judgement, scoffing of "I told you so" or rejection of his son forever.

The son shows up and says, "Father, forgive me."

The Father, rather than demanding forgiveness, is simply overjoyed with love and happiness for his son's return. Today, we seem to only believe that the Father will scold us, be angry with us, possibly even reject us, but the extreme opposite is true, that of a loving Father his draws his son close to him and says, "My son has returned! Let's party!"

The song "Where is the love" by the Black Eyed Peas draws attention to this, pointing to the fact that the violence happening is symptom of the lack of love we provide, that we preach, or how we are to test even our own limits to be a little more loving, a little more caring.

Instead, we focus on sin. We focus on not coloring outside the lines, and neglect our creativity. In patting ourselves on the back for not killing anyone today, we think we have done enough to make the world a little better place, rather than to actively live our faith, to give to others out of altruism, and for people to be drawn to us, not in fear of eternal punishment, but because they are inspired, because they see a light within you, which is God, and want to ignite the flame of God within themselves.

I believe that our message to the world should not be to stay within the law, to refrain from sinning, so as to meet God's wrath, but rather, to live each moment in love, each statement, each thought, and word and action, as a testimony of God within us. And, as the Buddhists and Hindi say to one another: Namaste: I honor the God within you. In doing so, the humble themselves before one another in acknowledging the other as a being of God, of bowing before God himself within everyone, and so treating one another in love and kindness becomes natural and second nature.

We should be focussing how we can be FAR more loving, and be the change we want to see in the world. We shouldn't look up to God, and ask, "where is the love," but ask ourselves, "where is the love God asked us to have for one another?" It comes from within, and if it isn't there, we don't know God, and need to pray for God's love to spring eternal.

We should be the salt of the earth, making people thirsty for righteousness, flavoring the world, not using our salt to make their wounds more painful. We should be temples of God, of hope, of equality, of kindness, peacefulness, and forgiveness and mercy, and light the way for others. We should allow God to shine through us, and if all we can offer others is condemnation, or demanded pennence that we did not have put on ourselves, then we have undone all of Christ's work. It is we who should be asking for forgiveness.

Our message should be that God cares for all of us, no matter how poor, how rich, famous, unpopular, beautiful, plain, holy, or disreputable we have been, God loves us, right now, without us having to do anything. Our message should be that following our faith, regardless of the one subscribed, we are to love others in mercy, to love first as God loved us, to love in humility to the most disreputable, to ask not that it be earned, but simply accepted, which is all God has asked of us. Rather than framing what one must refrain from, as if God demands us to suffer to show our love, we should be showing through our own lives how being filled with God's love, God's Holy Spirit makes us not condemning of others, but rather, loving, understanding, and mercifully forgiving without question, loving them right now, where they are.

Our lives should be a testament to the God, regardless of the religion, that lives within us, not a demand of others, but an ispiration to live up to, that is lived by example, and acknowledged as all God's doing.

We should not be asking, "Can God forgive me?" Rather, we should be saying, "God loves you right now. It doesn't matter how much you have sinned, do sin, or sin tomorrow, God will still love you. All he asks is that you admit that he loves you unconditionally."

And that is the message that should not be printed on billboards, but seen in our daily lives.

Namaste
 
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brightmorningstar

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To beanieboy,
What message are we trying to send?
The message I am trying to send is the one Christ left me to send.


This is the message that Christ sent - he taught people that God loved the world so much that he sent his son to us to teach us how to live, and how to love each other. He came to help us, to save us, and not condemn us.

Instead, what is taught is that we are bad, and need forgiveness. Once that is taught, then other people are bad, and now they need forgiveness, so that they can be good people like us.


The teachings of Buddhism and practices far more mirror what Christ taught than modern day Christianity, that demands the "sinners" to admit they are bad, they are guilty, and beg for forgiveness.
The you have probably grasped Buddhism better than Christianity because you haven’t grasped that the Biblical testimony says God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. I am sure you were thinking of John 3:16. If you read John 3:15 you will see this is just as Moses lifted up the snake after their repentance, so that all who looked on it would live. It’s an unmissable theme in the NT that we all fall short and are in need of salvation because of our disobedience. The people who don’t like this idea can’t receive God’s forgiveness.

The message is about who Christ is and what He has done, the problem is when we as people don’t look at Christ but look at ourselves and try and justify ourselves.

Instead, we focus on sin.
As Christians we don’t focus on sin.

Take John 3:16, its about Jesus saving all who believe from perishing to eternal life, if one looks at what Jesus has done He has saved us to eternal life, if you at us without Jesus one sees we are destined to perish. So people who focus on sin are not focussing on Jesus, but focusing on themselves.

We shouldn't look up to God, and ask, "where is the love," but ask ourselves, "where is the love God asked us to have for one another?" It comes from within, and if it isn't there, we don't know God, and need to pray for God's love to spring eternal.
It comes from God, humanism says it comes from within, if we read passages such as John 14 and 15 and 1 John we see that we cant know how to love each other unless we know how to love God, and vice versa.


We should be the salt of the earth, making people thirsty for righteousness, flavoring the world, not using our salt to make their wounds more painful.
How can forgiveness from guilt and sin through Jesus Christ be more painful?


Our message should be that God cares for all of us, no matter how poor, how rich, famous, unpopular, beautiful, plain, holy, or disreputable we have been, God loves us, right now, without us having to do anything.
Actually that’s a big deception as John 3:16 shows, and what you are saying is contrary to the whole Biblical testimony. Jesus says repent, He says faith saves us from sin, your view sounds good but is a massive deception. If you read the famous passage John 3:16, and read John 3:15 and Numbers 21 you will see that God so loved the world enough to save it from destruction. So God does love people and continues to love them enough to have made the way to save them. What Christ has done on the cross is not reversible, He has made forgiveness available and God doesn’t want anyone to perish but all to come to know repentance.
 
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Beanieboy

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So, are we not bad? Do we not need forgiveness?

Do you see your friends as bad?
Do you see you coworkers as bad?
Do you see yourself as bad?

I'm not saying that we all do bad things to each other, but I don't walk down the street pointing fingers, saying, "You are a sinner! You need forgiveness!"

Rather, I often pray, "Heavenly Father, have mercy on me, a lowly sinner."

Many believers of their faith would say, "I'm not a sinner!" But that is deceiving ourselves. We all sin, and we all ask forgiveness.

But is that all Christianity is? Is it simply about being a sinner, being a sin, and nothing else? Are we not made in God's image? Are we not beautiful and loved by God? And if God can look at us, why can we no focus on our beauty, on our goodness, on how we are like God?

In Buddhism, I used to sit an meditate, and Buddhism teaches that you do not become the Buddha, do not become enlightened, do not become perfect. You must simply realize that you are Buddha now, you are perfect now, within.

This is completely the opposite of what I was often told, told that we are disgusting to God, and only through Christ can God even stand to look at us. However, God could look at us before Christ. God sent Christ and loved us when we were sinners. And if we are able to love others, acknowledging that they are not perfect, how much more can God?

In the Buddhist meditation, the result was that things in my life that were not pure, not giving, that were selfish, harmful to my self or others, were simply shed. The best way to compare it is one who drinks a lot in college, and then grows out of it, knowing that it isn't helpful or healthy, and slowly walking away from it because of that knowledge.

If, however, one simply sees themselves as a sinner, they will only focus on sin, rather than living in love. They will be worried about breaking the pettiest of sins, and angering God, rather than actively trying to help and edify others, and being loving their neighbor as themselves the focus.

And at the end of our lives, which do you want to say to the Father? That you spent your life not stealing and killing, or committing adultery, or that you spent your life listening to those who needed comfort, or giving to those who had nothing, and giving more than enough, telling them not to pay you back?

You know the Sheep and the Goats? "Well, I didn't steal from you. Is that good enough?"

That is completely missing the point.
 
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Beanieboy

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It comes from God, humanism says it comes from within, if we read passages such as John 14 and 15 and 1 John we see that we cant know how to love each other unless we know how to love God, and vice versa.

We say that we "ask Christ into our heart." "Behold, I stand at the door and knock."

God/Christ and his love are from within, from God.
We may not be allowing it to come out, may not allow ourselves to practice that love, but in asking ourselves, in the Black Eyed Peas, "where is the love?", God's love is there, it is us who aren't being loving, and so, rather than ask God where the love is, we should be asking God how we can be more loving, should be praying for more love, and be praying for God's love to move through us.

We should be the change that we want to see in the world.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Beanieboy,
We say that we "ask Christ into our heart." "Behold, I stand at the door and knock."
This merely quotes another piece of scripture, it doesn’t address what previously posted.


God/Christ and his love are from within, from God.
We may not be allowing it to come out, may not allow ourselves to practice that love, but in asking ourselves, in the Black Eyed Peas, "where is the love?", God's love is there, it is us who aren't being loving, and so, rather than ask God where the love is, we should be asking God how we can be more loving, should be praying for more love, and be praying for God's love to move through us.

We should be the change that we want to see in the world.
[/quote]
No that’s only half the story, sure we have to recognise God from within and for that we have to know God, otherwise we get people attributing all kinds of things to God that aren’t of God.
To know God’s love one has to understand what God has done for us through Jesus Christ, one can often see fruit from people but without Christ its not fruit that lasts, Jesus said ‘without me you can do nothing’
I dont see much point one praying to God 'where is the love' because if one knows God one knows the love of God. As I cited John 14-15 Jesus says if we love Him and love God we do what He teaches.
 
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MoonLancer

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Do you see your friends as bad?
Do you see you coworkers as bad?
Do you see yourself as bad?

My sister told my mom she was going to hell and that she was an evil and bad person. this was after my sister discovered Christianity. That went over smoothly ...

My sister also asked me where i thought i was going when i die. I told her Avalon. it was tongue and cheek and i was on an Arthurian kick at the time. she dident know what Avalon was and got pretty upset.

i'm rambling but you get the point.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Uberd00b,
By what standard? This sounds like a subjective judgment.
It is subjective, if one believes Genesis, as I see you quoted some use the Biblical standard of what is the truth.

For acting in accordance with our natures? How can we?
Again with reference to the Biblical testimony how can we not if we have chosen the knowledge of evil which leads us to death?
 
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coastie

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Do you see your friends as bad?
Do you see you coworkers as bad?
Do you see yourself as bad?

yes, yes, and yes.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The beuaty of the gospel message is not that we're all generally good and jesus loves us so we get to go to heaven. The beauty is that Jesus loves us in spite of our sin and by God's great mercy, all who believe on Jesus can have this salvation.

I'm not saying that we all do bad things to each other, but I don't walk down the street pointing fingers, saying, "You are a sinner! You need forgiveness!"

Yeah, that'd be pretty jacked-up.

Rather, I often pray, "Heavenly Father, have mercy on me, a lowly sinner."
Many believers of their faith would say, "I'm not a sinner!" But that is deceiving ourselves. We all sin, and we all ask forgiveness.

Right on! You are definitely on the mark here!

But is that all Christianity is? Is it simply about being a sinner, being a sin, and nothing else? Are we not made in God's image? Are we not beautiful and loved by God? And if God can look at us, why can we no focus on our beauty, on our goodness, on how we are like God?

Ya know, we're not that much like God. The fruit of the spirit, as described by Paul in Gal 5, and the virtues mentioned on the Sermon on the Mount are relatively exhaustive lists of all the good works, done by us. Paul, however, makes it clear that those same good works and virtues should be credited to the Holy Spirit. Not that Christians or non-Christians cannot do good things, but even our best works are nothing but "dirty rags" to God and do not earn us some sort of God-like status. The whole point of these good works isn't to show how awesome and god-like we are. The point of these good works is the same as the chief end of man, to glorify God,[1] and to enjoy him forever.[2]

In Buddhism, I used to sit an meditate, and Buddhism teaches that you do not become the Buddha, do not become enlightened, do not become perfect. You must simply realize that you are Buddha now, you are perfect now, within.

So how has this influenced your understanding of Christianity?

This is completely the opposite of what I was often told, told that we are disgusting to God, and only through Christ can God even stand to look at us. However, God could look at us before Christ. God sent Christ and loved us when we were sinners. And if we are able to love others, acknowledging that they are not perfect, how much more can God?

You're close. Prior to Jesus birth, death and resurrection, there were things that the Jews had to do to be reconciled with God and God had a significant amount of mercy on them. As a replacement atoning sacrifice for these acts by the Jews for reconciliation was the "lamb of God" aka Jesus who was blameless in every respect and did not deserve death but selflessly died on the cross for our sins so that "whosoever believed in Him would have eternal life."

In the Buddhist meditation, the result was that things in my life that were not pure, not giving, that were selfish, harmful to my self or others, were simply shed. The best way to compare it is one who drinks a lot in college, and then grows out of it, knowing that it isn't helpful or healthy, and slowly walking away from it because of that knowledge.
If, however, one simply sees themselves as a sinner, they will only focus on sin, rather than living in love. They will be worried about breaking the pettiest of sins, and angering God, rather than actively trying to help and edify others, and being loving their neighbor as themselves the focus.

Probably not. What you are rightly describing as something to disdain is the sinful self-absorbed sort of legalism that Jesus preached against........ repeatedly.

This would be disregarding some crucial tenets of our faith that include patience, forgiveness, love, generosity and seeing to the needs of the poor, hungry, sick and widowed. Jesus did not intend for the message of the much-needed sanctification of the sinful world to be acted out in a selfish way, which is, in and of itself, sinful.

And at the end of our lives, which do you want to say to the Father? That you spent your life not stealing and killing, or committing adultery, or that you spent your life listening to those who needed comfort, or giving to those who had nothing, and giving more than enough, telling them not to pay you back?

Yup, right on the mark again!

You know the Sheep and the Goats? "Well, I didn't steal from you. Is that good enough?"

That is completely missing the point.

Ya know, there isn't a whole lot of contention here. Between what you are saying and what I'm saying, I think the biggest difference is the fact that I'm making the point that Jesus makes it very clear that none of us deserve a heavenly reward, yet He offers it freely to those who believe in Him. What I understand you to be saying is that men are basically good and that they don't need someone to tell them that at heart they are actually evil.

The problem is that, if my understanding of the gospel message weren't true, we wouldn't need a savior to atone for our sins. This idea is in total in contradiction to the entire gospel message.

Don't you think that it just makes God so much more beautiful once you realize that He isn't a vindictive school master smacking our hands with a ruler everytime we screw up, but instead a loving father who has given us free will and the ability to choose eternal life simply by confessing our sins, admitting our need for salvation and accepting Christ, His death and resurrection as your atonement for all of your trangressions in life.

Honestly, in my experience, a much more common misconception for Christians and would-be Christians is that once they realize how immense God's grace is, they go on sinning freely without regard for Jesus' or Paul's messages involving the great "fruits of the spirit" I mentioned earlier. Those virtues should bear enormous significance in the Christian life.

I think the God's grace is the message that we should be getting across, not the whole "I'm okay, you're okay," mantra. That's pretty destructive.
 
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b&wpac4

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You're close. Prior to Jesus birth, death and resurrection, there were things that the Jews had to do to be reconciled with God and God had a significant amount of mercy on them. As a replacement atoning sacrifice for these acts by the Jews for reconciliation was the "lamb of God" aka Jesus who was blameless in every respect and did not deserve death but selflessly died on the cross for our sins so that "whosoever believed in Him would have eternal life."

What could non-Jews do to be reconciled to God before Jesus?
 
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coastie

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My sister told my mom she was going to hell and that she was an evil and bad person. this was after my sister discovered Christianity. That went over smoothly ...

That sucks. Great story though.That probably wasn't the best way to approach the topic, but it really is a moral imperative for Christians to express their concern for their loved ones' salvation. It is not an act of prideful judgement, hopefully, but you'd have to ahte someone pretty bad to NOT want to see them saved from the ultimate, eternal punishment for sin.

My sister also asked me where i thought i was going when i die. I told her Avalon. it was tongue and cheek and i was on an Arthurian kick at the time. she dident know what Avalon was and got pretty upset.

i'm rambling but you get the point.

No, I don't get the point here, but again, funny story. :)
 
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coastie

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What could non-Jews do to be reconciled to God before Jesus?

Well, I was going to answer your other question before you edited your post and changed it, but now I think I'll abstain for a moment. :)

So, are you asking because you want to know or because you are testing me? ;)

Since the Jews had not yet heard the gospel or weren't privvy to the atonement for their sins by Christ, God had made it possible for them to still be reconciled to Him. After Jesus had come, fullfilled the law and offered Himself as the atonement, those "who believe in Him will not perish, but have eternal life".

Its really a much better deal, if you ask me.
 
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coastie

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By what standard? This sounds like a subjective judgment.

Actually it was a rhetorical question.

The standard we are held to is pretty clear in the Bible. That's the beauty of having a standard, answers to questions like that do not have to be subjective.

For acting in accordance with our natures? How can we?

Ever had the urge to kill someone? Their are a lot of people who have that urge and follow through with it. A lot of men have a ridiculous sex drive, but if they didn't keep it in check and acted out their "nature" they'd probably get into trouble.

Not acting in accordance to out nature is the difference between us and wild animals.
 
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coastie

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I see, bullies, tarts, cowards, cheats, crooks, slobs, liers, and tattle-talers everyday -----and that's just in kindergarten.

you ain't jokin' friend. 5-year-olds freak me out! :D
 
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Skaloop

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Actually it was a rhetorical question.

The standard we are held to is pretty clear in the Bible. That's the beauty of having a standard, answers to questions like that do not have to be subjective.

Except that the standard itself is subjective. As is deciding which standard to follow. There are all sorts of standards to choose from, from the Bible to the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. How do you objectively determine which is the one to use?

Ever had the urge to kill someone? Their are a lot of people who have that urge and follow through with it. A lot of men have a ridiculous sex drive, but if they didn't keep it in check and acted out their "nature" they'd probably get into trouble.

Not acting in accordance to out nature is the difference between us and wild animals.

If we humans sometimes act in accordance with our nature, and we can train dogs (for example) to not act in accordance with their nature, then the difference is not so black and white.
 
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coastie

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Except that the standard itself is subjective. As is deciding which standard to follow. There are all sorts of standards to choose from, from the Bible to the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. How do you objectively determine which is the one to use?

Ok, I'l bite... How is the Biblical standard of morality subjective?

second question answer: Well you could just trust me and choose the same one I did, or you can investigate each and may the decision on your own.

Let's not get sidetracked. The point is that good and bad/right and wrong are not subjective. That's like telling me my car's not read because the dealership I bought it at was yellow. Non sequitor.

I don't and never will endorse Ferengis though.

If we humans sometimes act in accordance with our nature, and we can train dogs (for example) to not act in accordance with their nature, then the difference is not so black and white.


And if your dog pees on your couch you'll probably say "bad dog!" even though it was acting according to its nature. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong.
 
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Skaloop

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Ok, I'l bite... How is the Biblical standard of morality subjective?

Well, if it is what it claims to be, it is based upon God's subjective opinions of what is moral. If it's not what it claims to be, it is based upon the subjective opinions of the human authors.

Well you could just trust me and choose the same one I did, or you can investigate each and may the decision on your own

Each making our own decisions is the subjective part.

I don't endorse Ferengis though.

Nor do I. Quark does, though.

And if your dog pees on your couch you'll probably say "bad dog!" even though it was acting according to its nature. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong.

If he waits and goes outside, I will say "good dog!" for acting against his nature.

EDIT: Also, acting according to, or contrary to, one's nature is not necessarily good or bad, right or wrong. You use bad examples of a person's nature (wanting to kill, wanting extraordinary amounts of sex) and say that because we suppress those things, they are bad. But there are also good things to human nature, and they can also be suppressed. It can be in one's nature to be generous, but they don't give something to everyone they meet.

Plus, one's nature and whether it should be suppressed depends on context. Back to dogs, it is a dog's nature to protect it's master and property. That's fine if there's a burglar, but not so good if it's a kid delivering a newspaper.

Similarly, getting angry over someone bumping you on the sidewalk should be suppressed. Getting angry over atrocities committed against other people should not. Human nature (anger) should be suppressed in some instances, but not in others. And exactly what those instances are can be subjective.
 
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