What's the motive?

k4c · Oct 3, 2009

I always wonder what prevents us from believing that Michael was a created angel?

Are there verses that prevent it?

Everytime I begin studying the nature of Christ it seems that I'm always brought back to the Papal church to where the eternally begotten son doctrine was formed.

In the same way, when I study the institution of Sunday worship into the Christian faith I'm brought back to the Papal church.

Could it be that Michael, a created angel of God became Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, through His birth through Mary when He took on flesh?

Could it be that God created Michael as the first of His creation before all things for the one pupose of glorifying God in the same way Adam was created for the very same purpose?

What verse in the Bible prevents us from believing this?

Is there a verse preventing us from believing Michael was a created angel or is it the fear of persecution and excommunication that prevents us from believing it?

Is there a verse that commands Sunday worship or is it the fear of persecution and excommunication that forces Sunday worship?

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

What are your thoughts because I'm at a loss for verses?

smpitow · Oct 3, 2009

If we believe that Michael is Jesus, there is no way we can deny His divinity. There are many verses that let us know that Jesus is indeed God incarnate:

He is called God multiple times---
John 20:27-29; 2 Peter 1:1;Titus 2:12-14; John 1:1-3, 14; Hebrews 1:8; Isaiah 9:6

He is accused of blasphemy by Jews who understood the Messiah would be God--
John 5:18; John 10:33

Jesus uses titles belonging to God alone--
John 8:58-59; Revelation 1:8, 22:12-13

Jesus Created---
Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:3 (compare Isaiah 44:24)

Jesus forgives sin---

Mark 2:5-7, 10-11

Jesus gives eternal life--
John 10:27-28

Jesus receives, and accepts, worship---
Matthew 14:32-33; Matthew 28:9, 17, John 9:37-38

Jesus is "God with us"---
Matthew 1:23

Jesus' blood is called God's blood---
Acts 20:28

Jesus spoke as God, with authority--
Matthew 5:27-29; John 14:15; Matthew 7:28-29

k4c · Oct 3, 2009

smpitow said:
If we believe that Michael is Jesus, there is no way we can deny His divinity. There are many verses that let us know that Jesus is indeed God incarnate:

He is called God multiple times---
John 20:27-29; 2 Peter 1:1;Titus 2:12-14; John 1:1-3, 14; Hebrews 1:8; Isaiah 9:6

He is accused of blasphemy by Jews who understood the Messiah would be God--
John 5:18; John 10:33

Jesus uses titles belonging to God alone--
John 8:58-59; Revelation 1:8, 22:12-13

Jesus Created---
Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:3 (compare Isaiah 44:24)

Jesus forgives sin---

Mark 2:5-7, 10-11

Jesus gives eternal life--
John 10:27-28

Jesus receives, and accepts, worship---
Matthew 14:32-33; Matthew 28:9, 17, John 9:37-38

Jesus is "God with us"---
Matthew 1:23

Jesus' blood is called God's blood---
Acts 20:28

Jesus spoke as God, with authority--
Matthew 5:27-29; John 14:15; Matthew 7:28-29

Amen...

But even in all this, Jesus and the Father are two seperate people as is Michael and the Father.

honorthesabbath · Oct 3, 2009

I don't get it. Jesus is called a Rock, Bread, Water, a Lamb, Light, etc. But refer to Him as a Angel, which is far higher and more noble than any of the preceding, and boy oh boy--peoples ire gets up. Unbelievable!

SoldierOfTheKing · Oct 3, 2009

He gave His name to Moses when He spoke from the burning bush. It wasn't "Michael".

k4c · Oct 3, 2009

SoldierOfTheKing said:
He gave His name to Moses when He spoke from the burning bush. It wasn't "Michael".

It was the Angel of the LORD in the burning bush. The name, Angel of the LORD is not a personal name, but rather, a title. The personal name for the Angel of the LORD is Michael the Chief messenger of God and protector of God's people.

It's this same Michael who lowered Himself to take on sinful flesh.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

It's this same Archangel who calls up the dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Daniel 12:1-3 "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

honorthesabbath · Oct 4, 2009

SoldierOfTheKing said:
He gave His name to Moses when He spoke from the burning bush. It wasn't "Michael".

But that 'angel' that spoke to Moses claims Himself, "GOD"!!

k4c · Oct 4, 2009

honorthesabbath said:
But that 'angel' that spoke to Moses claims Himself, "GOD"!!

Amen...

The one true God is invisible. The Angel of the Lord, as God's chief messenger, was the tangible manifestation of God's word.

TANGIBLE:
1 a : capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch. b : substantially real.
2 : capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind.
3 : capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value.

In the same way Jesus was the tangible manifestation of God's word in image form.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Jesus became the tangible manifestation of God's word.

1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Pythons · Oct 4, 2009

K4C,

Seventh-day Adventist Official Theology, well into the 1900's taught that Jesus was created. The difference and misunderstanding comes from how this is compared to God's other creations, specifically the other angels.

It was understood that God "created" Michael OF Himself so that it could be said Jesus could be called God properly. This is contrasted with God when He "created" the angels "from nothing". The contest or "controversy" can be observed when we see the R&D God put into Satan.

Ellen White said:
Evil originated with Lucifer, who rebelled against the government of God. Before his fall he was a covering cherub, distinguished by his excellence. God made him good and beautiful, as near as possible like Himself {FLB 66.2}

Ellen said:
As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the HIGEST "ANGEL" in heaven.

Originally Posted by Application of EGW teachings
Question to the Editor: Will you please favor me with those Scriptures which plainly say that Christ is a created being?

Answer: You are mistaken in supposing that S.D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can properly be called God and worshiped as such. They believe also that the worlds and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. They believe, HOWEVER, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which CHRIST CAME INTO EXISTENCE.

They think that it is necessary that GOD SHOULD HAVE ANTEDATED CHRIST IN HIS BEING, in order that Christ could have been begotten of Him, and sustain to him the relationship of son. They hold to the distinct personality of the Father and Son rejecting as absurd that feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit are three persons and yet one person.

S.D. Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one i.e. one in spirit, purpose and labor. See Fundamental Principles of S.D. Adventists, Published at this office, available for 4 cents
[/quote]

Please notice that the last short paragraph taken out of the Herald magazine is a direct quote from Ellen's teaching in the test. for the Church.

Ellen White said:
The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are ONE. {8T 269.4}

So, in answer to the OP, nothing in foundational SDA teaching would prevent you, in fact it was evidently a requirement. Good question!

k4c · Oct 4, 2009

Pythons said:
K4C,

Seventh-day Adventist Official Theology, well into the 1900's taught that Jesus was created. The difference and misunderstanding comes from how this is compared to God's other creations, specifically the other angels.

It was understood that God "created" Michael OF Himself so that it could be said Jesus could be called God properly. This is contrasted with God when He "created" the angels "from nothing". The contest or "controversy" can be observed when we see the R&D God put into Satan.

Originally Posted by Application of EGW teachings
Question to the Editor: Will you please favor me with those Scriptures which plainly say that Christ is a created being?

Answer: You are mistaken in supposing that S.D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can properly be called God and worshiped as such. They believe also that the worlds and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. They believe, HOWEVER, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which CHRIST CAME INTO EXISTENCE.

They think that it is necessary that GOD SHOULD HAVE ANTEDATED CHRIST IN HIS BEING, in order that Christ could have been begotten of Him, and sustain to him the relationship of son. They hold to the distinct personality of the Father and Son rejecting as absurd that feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit are three persons and yet one person.

S.D. Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one i.e. one in spirit, purpose and labor. See Fundamental Principles of S.D. Adventists, Published at this office, available for 4 cents

Please notice that the last short paragraph taken out of the Herald magazine is a direct quote from Ellen's teaching in the test. for the Church.

So, in answer to the OP, nothing in foundational SDA teaching would prevent you, in fact it was evidently a requirement. Good question![/quote]

You must have quite the library of Ellen White.

Pythons · Oct 4, 2009

k4c said:
Please notice that the last short paragraph taken out of the Herald magazine is a direct quote from Ellen's teaching in the test. for the Church.

So, in answer to the OP, nothing in foundational SDA teaching would prevent you, in fact it was evidently a requirement. Good question!

You must have quite the library of Ellen White.[/quote]

Let's just say that I have some early books Ellen wrote that do not seem to show up on the White Estate Search engine. For statements Ellen made that the Church would rather you NOT read I would suggest;

General Conference Archives

For reading Ellen White within the context of her visible works I would suggest using;

Ellen G. White ® Estate: The Official Ellen White ® Web site then select EGW online database. Between the two of those you can produce almost everything. For the other stuff you just have to find the rare out of print books on used book store sites such as Abes. That's where I've got mine to include a very old copy of GC that shows Jesus with 4 wings and a full beard.

tall73 · Oct 4, 2009

Pythons said:
General Conference Archives

Those are handy. But I am not thrilled with their document format. I suppose it is necessary to preserve the original appearance.

Pythons · Oct 4, 2009

tall73 said:
Those are handy. But I am not thrilled with their document format. I suppose it is necessary to preserve the original appearance.

I'm not a fan of them either. Amazing to read what people thought and did back then.

SoldierOfTheKing · Oct 4, 2009

"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
Exodus 3:13-15

So what we see here. It was the LORD, YHWH, the "I AM" Himself speaking to Moses, not an "angel of the LORD", that YHWH is a name, not a title. If youwant to see who the "I AM" is, see John 8:58.

k4c · Oct 5, 2009

SoldierOfTheKing said:
"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
Exodus 3:13-15

So what we see here. It was the LORD, YHWH, the "I AM" Himself speaking to Moses, not an "angel of the LORD", that YHWH is a name, not a title. If youwant to see who the "I AM" is, see John 8:58.

Acts 7:30 "And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.

The Angel of the LORD was the spokesman and representitive of the invisible God. He has the Father's name in Him and God speaks through Him.

Exodus 23:20-22 "Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. "Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. "But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

John 3:34 God sent Jesus. Jesus speaks the words of God, because God gave him the Spirit without limit.

honorthesabbath · Oct 5, 2009

k4c said:
Acts 7:30 "And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.

The Angel of the LORD was the spokesman and representitive of the invisible God. He has the Father's name in Him and God speaks through Him.

Exodus 23:20-22 "Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. "Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. "But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

John 3:34 God sent Jesus. Jesus speaks the words of God, because God gave him the Spirit without limit.

And one more....

1Cor.1:10 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Stryder06 · Oct 5, 2009

One should keep in mind that only God accepts worship. When John bowed before the angel in Revelation, the angel quickly took him by the arm and helped him to his feet, while gently rebuking him for that action.

The Angel of the Lord however, when appearing to Joshua told him to remove his sandals for he was on holy ground, and did not rebuke Joshua for bowing down.

What's the motive?

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