Is the Messianic Faith becoming more Rabbinical?

ChazakEmunah said:

That's too bad then. I can't speak for other Chasidim, but in Breslev we go to great lengths to follow the teachings of Rebbe Nachman, who was very particular to practice love of both Jew and non-Jew alike.

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Yes I understand.

ChavaK said:

To me, that is still an Oxymoron.... :0

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Judaism has always reformed (especially since 70AD), and it still is. How can it be an oxymoron?

ChavaK said:

To me, that is still an Oxymoron.... :0

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Would you care to elaborate why? I, too, am curious..
as i always see "reformed" , it mainly refers to a particular way of practicing it, and the term is very broad,there are so much variety among reformed (and progressive) its almost just as much as in Reformed Christianity.

I would agree that the essense of true Judaism, the "spirit" of it, indeed, remains the same, be it reformed or orthodox, but the "Letter" of the Law in terms of many ways of living it out, practicing a certain lifestyle, is different.

IMO even Orthodox Judaism is not pure never been touched or reformed in some way. Does a sabra define Orthodox Judaism and it's practices the same way a Eastern European Orthodox would?

No, she wouldn't , good catch, Anisavta. I think you r right...

Well, when we talk about movement as a whole then surely Orthodoxes are a piece of work, rare pain. I think here is the similar phenomenon we see as in Catholic church- some church teachings are off the wall big time, but there are some individuals who are true Sons and Daughters.
If an orthodox is all about tradition and no love involved, he is an empty zimbal, thats for sure.

like, looking at the lovely pic in your footnote. Three good israeli boys like that can die in the same tank,fighting for the same Land - but if one of them is deemed by ultra ortodoxes in Rabbinute( surely lost of "nut" it there) to be not halachically a Jew, they cant be buried in the same grave, not even together nearby! That ,in my opinion, is despicable. Love has to define Judaism if its true Judaism....

I know some absolutley wonderful Orthodox people who I would trust my life and the life of my family with. And then there is Yad L'achim.

What I still don't understand about Messianic Judaism is that every Messianic I have come across talks about restoring the Hebrew Roots of Christianity. OK, so far, I understand. However, any quick and unbiased study will reveal that modern-day Judaism has also evolved a great deal. In many ways, it bears little resemblance to the Jewish sects Jesus was used to. From synagogue role and worship down to even the basics, like the calendar, things are very different. Present-day Judaism and its sects are a result of 2 millennia of Jewish experience.

Then the Messianic movement comes along and copies even the minhagim and say they are restoring the Hebrew Roots of their faith. Are they really? If they want to restore ROOTS why do they go for the LEAVES?

After much research, I must agree with the frum camp and say that it seems to me that the greatest majority simply seem to want to look Jewish, rather than to rediscover common roots.

How is singing Adon Olam or reciting the Kol Nidrei making you closer to the Judaism Jesus was used to? Of course I have nothing against those who sing such a marvelous song, but can this really bring you closer to the 1st century faith of Jesus, or is it just something one does because it's nice and it makes one feel Jewish?

Sad to say, but as both an outsider and a Jew, I think the Messianic movement has very little to do with the faith in the times of Jesus, so if the objective was to "restore the Hebrew Roots", most seem to have missed the point by a wide margin.

Then again, if the objective was simply to present Jews with a less offending form of practicing Christianity, then one might say it has been quite successful. I remember going to a Messianic shul once, just to visit, and everything was done by the siddur, and it felt just like your ordinary Conservative shul.

Kol tov,
Fremen

There is a definite tug of war going on when it comes to defining how far and which path should the return follow. I applaud the effort. I applaud the great finds because of the digging to restore the original. I understand those who have gone ahead and look back wondering why the others are taking so long to see what the scouts have found. But for those shephards who are herding the sheep, they know nothing moves slower than a little lamb who needs rest after going a little ways. We are definitely travelling in the wilderness of sin and heading towards Mount Sinai [Zion]. Let us look forward to that great Yom Kippur day. ... when we too will hear His Voice thundering ...

ChavaK said:

I stumbled across this thread at the old MW forum, which is closed
so I could not post a follow up question there.

Two years ago, Wags posed this question and I am wondering
two years later, what the response is?

Is the messianic movement becoming more "rabbinical?" Lately there have been several people here who have stated that "mainstream" messianic organizations/leaders have become (and are teaching) more rabbinical in their approach. And that in doing so they have lost sight of Yeshua.

Since these are, in my opinion, very serious accusations, I would like to see some concrete proof to back them up.

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Does the highlighted matter to or alarm anyone?

Lose sight of the Messiah and nothing else matters.

johnd said:

Does the highlighted matter to or alarm anyone?

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Seems to be a case of having a either an increasingly Rabbinical MJism or that run by people who are not qualified for the task of leading such groups. I think the first is a knee-jerk reaction to the second.

ChavaK said:

Absolutely....where we differ is in minhagim ...halachah is standard.


I've been in countless Orthodox homes from Satmar to Chabad to MO to
everything in between...undoubtedly they would agree on a definition of
what "Orthodoxy" entails.

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Absolutely. Across the board, from the Yemeni, to the S'fardi, to the Chasid, to the Morrocan, to the Ashkenazi, we all follow the same base halachic standards. What varies from community to community are the customs for keeping the halachot.

ContraMundum said:

Yes I understand.

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Speaking of which, Rav Shalom just published a new book, In Forest Fields. It looks really good. I have my copy on the way already.

ChavaK said:

They've reformed themselves so far from Torah, I don't even consider
them to be practicing the same religion.

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It's sad, but true.

ChavaK said:

I stumbled across this thread at the old MW forum, which is closed
so I could not post a follow up question there.

Two years ago, Wags posed this question and I am wondering
two years later, what the response is?

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Not my Rabbi. He will quote the Rabbincal explanations but right before he launches into their explanations will say that he doesn't believe them. He's not "Rabbinical" at all. And neither is my congregation.

TexasBluebonnet said:

Not my Rabbi. He will quote the Rabbincal explanations but right before he launches into their explanations will say that he doesn't believe them. He's not "Rabbinical" at all. And neither is my congregation.

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Then you are truly blessed!