Were Paul and Yeshua liars?

Heber said:

How fairer can G_d be?

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Indeed!
Barukh hu!

I definately agree with what you said about Yeshua showing us the 'how' aspect when it comes to observing Torah. His words show us how to observe Torah.

Without Christ, you can observe the letter of the law and become haughty. With Christ, You find that you are always humbled before Him in the light of His ever deepr into the root of the sin, which the Holy Spirit has convicted the soul on, and thus these people have more compassion knowing what the Lord sees, .. so they too.. say.. forgive them.. for they know not what they do.

visionary said:

Without Christ, you can observe the letter of the law and become haughty.

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True. Observing Torah is to be rigteousness for us, as we are walking in the instruction of God. However, as Paul says in Romans, some refuse to submit to the righteousness of God, but rather become self-righteouss, and haught. Thus Yeshua told us that our righteousness must be more than the scribes and the pharisees. See my sig.

Evangelica said:

Transferring my post from previous thread

Eph 2:14-15

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace......
​

Christ abolished ordinances by abolishing in His flesh the law with it's commandments,
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Here's my Dilemma.

If Christ removed all this-
then I would be free to worship Pagan Gods, go to my neighbors home, steal his cattle, kill him, abuse his wife etc.

How is this making peace with mankind or God?

Heber said:

I repeat, this is bad exegesis from someone who doesn't know how to read the Scriptures other than as just being 'another' book.

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That's pure scripture...what's your point?

With the understanding that God does in fact make concessions...
I can think of at least 3 in Judaism alone:

the sanhedrin (Exodus 18, Joshua 9:14)
the monarchy (1 Samuel 8)
temple construction (2 Samuel 7:12-13 / Zechariah 6:12-13 / 1 Corinthians 3:16)

And Christianity is fraught with human interpolations....

But God took all and placed it on the genuine Jesus and through faith in that Jesus we can be saved. But it has to be the genuine Jesus.

So paganism will not suffice.

Evangelica said:

All ordinances being abolished, even the vow was abolished...

Christ abolished ordinances by abolishing in His flesh the law with it's commandments

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so what of this then?

mat 5 of the Christian writings:
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Evangelica said:

Transferring my post from previous thread

Eph 2:14-15

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
​

All ordinances being abolished, even the vow was abolished, or was it that he ended the vow that got him into so much trouble since Nazarite vows for life, for a day, a week etc. was what it was established for.

Paul went thru a transition process as much as John the Baptist and the church led by James brought in change.

Christ abolished ordinances by abolishing in His flesh the law with it's commandments, but James in acts 21 was still promoting them. There was a situation of mixture in Jerusalem. Since Christ has come and passed thru the processes of incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection and ascention, breathing the Spirit into God's chosen people essentially then pouring the Spirit upon them to bring them into the "Way" since He has done all that many of the prophesies, types, figures, and shadows of the Old Testament are out-of-date.

It's for the church to determine which ones still have SIGNificance to us today and to what seeds are they pointing to from which they sprang according to that process.


Jerusalem, during the beginning church was the first group of vessels chosen by God to contain Christ. They were still strongly influenced by their Judaic background and the atmosphere that prevailed in Jerusalem.

Hebrews consoles them that with the destruction of Jerusalem comes not just a better way but the Best Way of the substance of truth and not just the shadow.
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Here is my original post

SGM4HIM said:

Here's my Dilemma.

If Christ removed all this-
then I would be free to worship Pagan Gods, go to my neighbors home, steal his cattle, kill him, abuse his wife etc.

How is this making peace with mankind or God?

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This is not a question as to my post but a question about this poster's interpretation

Heber said:

I repeat, this is bad exegesis from someone who doesn't know how to read the Scriptures other than as just being 'another' book.

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This is an absurd accusation

ShirChadash said:

so what of this then?

mat 5 of the Christian writings:
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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And that also is not a question as to my post.

If you can't address my posts then take your interpretation to elsewhere. It's not anything to do with my original post other than to put up a conflicting view w/o addressing my post.

This is how we debate and discuss. You can't be thin skinned here. We argue, we agree, we disagree. If you disagree with posts then state what it is you disagree with. Some of your statements do not ring true.

All ordinances being abolished, even the vow was abolished, or was it that he ended the vow that got him into so much trouble since Nazarite vows for life, for a day, a week etc. was what it was established for.

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Explain what you mean by all vows were abolished.

It's for the church to determine which ones still have SIGNificance to us today and to what seeds are they pointing to from which they sprang according to that process.

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Which ones what? Which laws still have significance?

Heber said:

There is not a fault with Scripture - as I have said before, it is your exegesis of Scripture that is faulty; improve it and you will see what Scripture really says.

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Improve your responses and perhaps we might be able to discuss scripture instead of nonsence. I'm done here.

Heber said:

How can I improve on the truth? Your exegesis is incorrect and you seem unwilling to accept that possibility. You seem to be reading the Bible as a book without taking note of what is there apart from the text on the page.

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Please point out where it is incorrect. Am I to accept your word instead of God's?

All ordinances being abolished, even the vow was abolished...

Christ abolished ordinances by abolishing in His flesh the law with it's commandments

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We know that you have lumped anything that mentions law or commandments or ordinances in one catagory and claimed it was all abolished.

Are you willing to go verse by verse and see each part of the verse and what exactly the authors are talking about.

Several subjects that are mentioned through out the NT specifically

Circumcision... and all the discussions between the Jews who thought it was and should be mandatory for the conversion process.. and those who got into the spirit of it and saw that God wanted the hearts to be dedicated.

Traditions of men... The Jews have created "fences" which they called "laws" to protect the Laws of God... and when Peter was talking about the law forbidding encounters with Gentiles... it is not one of God's laws... When Yeshua was talking about the washing of hands it was a traditional law that was being dealt with. I am sure others can point out many more.

Ordinances... When you go to your local court house to talk to them about "ordinances" you will find out that it is getting into the nitty gritty of how the "law" is to be interpreted, handled, and executed. Same thing with what Paul is talking about when he explained that they have been abolished. The Book of Hebrews goes into more details about that... and specifically mentions the changes... changes in the Priesthood, the Temple, and its services, and of course you know that Yeshua is the Lamb of God and now our High Priest.

Anything outside of these is not scripture... that is everything about the changes of the OT to the NT...

Summary....

"Fences" are all fine and good as long as they do not take away from the Commandments of God.

Whether it The New Covenant or the Old Covenant [which is the deal of how you are to relate to the relationship between you and God] and not the Law of God....you will find that the old covenant was to teach [schoolmaster] how people are to have a relationship with God. The New covenant has the Holy Spirit to teach people how to have a relationship with God. So while each covenant are dealing with relationship with God, The Law of God itself remains as unchanged as God Himself.

visionary said:

We know that you have lumped anything that mentions law or commandments or ordinances in one catagory and claimed it was all abolished.

.

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Here is the verse

It's for the church to determine which ones still have SIGNificance to us today and to what seeds are they pointing to from which they sprang according to that process.

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Here is more from that post that specifies that.