Do you believe repentance is a prerequisite for salvation?

Citizen of the Kingdom · Sep 19, 2009

Evangelica said:
ok, then let me ask you a question..saved to relationship and not reward...are you saying that rewards are moot and have no place in what motivates a person? Because personally rewards of heavenly value motivate me as much as money motivates others in this age.

or as part of the gospel?

Rewards and lack thereof are the antithesis of easy-pleasy salvation imo

Catherineanne · Sep 19, 2009

Evangelica said:
ok, then let me ask you a question..saved to relationship and not reward...are you saying that rewards are moot and have no place in what motivates a person? Because personally rewards of heavenly value motivate me as much as money motivates others in this age.

or as part of the gospel?

When a parent wants a toddler to do something, he might well offer a sweet in return - hopefully not every time, but enough to get some kind of attention and relationship going. Even when the child is a teenager, there might be an element of bribery and corruption going on. Children are like that.

However, if we grow to adulthood and still expect our parents to give us presents before we offer them our love, then something is wrong.

A mature relationship is not about what can I get out of this, but about what is the right thing for me to do, in this situation, in relation to this person?

I personally think that whatever God may or may not do for me in eternity is not the reason why I have the faith I have. I really am not bothered about that at all; it is pretty well as irrelevant as it can be. I hope for a pleasant surprise or two, but I leave it in his hands.

Unconditional love works both ways, in other words.

NaLuvena · Sep 19, 2009

Catherineanne said:
Fair enough. That is a very good elucidation of the opposing viewpoint on this one; that if we remain in Christ, we remain saved, but if we decide, for whatever reason, to leave him, then our salvation is reversed, and we are pruned from God's grapevine like a dead twig, and then chucked on the compost heap.

However, there is a problem with this pov. First of all it makes sin more powerful than holiness, and second of all it makes man more powerful than God. Here is Isaiah 43 v 12b:

Sorry, this doesn't make sin more powerful than holiness. It means that God respects the decision a person makes, and will not force what He knows is good for us, if we choose not to accept it. Even after we accept salvation, we can still turn our back to God and walk away. The numerous warning in the epistles, encouraging us to continue until the end testify to this.

Catherineanne said:
So, here is the issue. When Christ has been crucified, when man has knelt at the foot of the cross, and been sealed with the mark of the Lamb in Baptism, can that same man then say, 'actually, forget the whole thing', and walk away from his salvation?

Yes.

Catherineanne said:
Clearly, in earthly terms we have free will, and we can do that. But what about in eternal terms? Does God then think, 'ok, reverse the sacrament of baptism for this one; cross his name out of the book'. No. He smiles and says, 'Son, when I do something, it stays done.'

So when is a person saved? It's only done if we continue to stay believers until we die. When we walk away from God, we don't get the crown of life promised to us.

When God does something, it stays done, I agree 100% with that. However, the walking away is our doing, something that God has let us decide upon.

Catherineanne said:
Consider the parable of the prodigal son. Does his father disown his son when he rebels, and leaves his presence? Or does he rather stand and watch for him from afar, always loving, waiting, trusting, hoping and persevering? This is how God regards us if we walk away from him. We remain his children, no matter what we do, just as our own children remain ours, no matter what they do. Even if your own mother forgets you, says God in Isaiah, I will not forget you.

So then we come to sin. Man cannot reverse what God has done, but perhaps if we sin enough, that can. But what sin is powerful enough to reverse the crucifixion? Can the Lord be crucified twice?

The answer is, once again, "When I act, who can reverse it?"

But then you might say, sin IS powerful. It has the power to separate us from God. Actually, it doesn't. NOTHING has the power to separate us from God. What separates us from God is God.

True. However, this is something God lets each person decide upon for themselves, and respects the decision of the person. No one goes to Heaven against their will, salvation is not forced on anyone.

Catherineanne said:
Look at Exodus 33. Moses wants to see God, and asks to do so. God wants to oblige, because he is very fond of Moses, but he can't do it. Not because it is impossible, but because it would destroy Moses to look at God.

In other words, if at any point in our lives we cannot see God, or even feel his presence, that is an act of mercy on God's part, just as it was to Moses. At times, God withholds himself from us, to protect us from his holiness.

Fortunately for us, however, we have Christ. And, as I have already said, Christ does not have to hide his face before sinners with one exception. When Satan encounters Christ, what does the Lord say? 'Get thee behind me.' Man can look on Christ, but it is not safe for satan to do so. I rather like the fact that Christ doesn't bother turning his back on satan, he simply says, in effect, your place is behind me, so get back there. No wonder satan hates Christ.

So, even in our most fallen state, even in the midst of our sin, we can encounter God in Christ, and look him in the eyes, and see God's love, mercy and compassion looking directly at us. And just as with the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, the blind man healed at the pool of Bethesda, an encounter with God in Christ is enough. His holiness burns away any desire for sin, and leaves behind only desire and longing for God himself. A call for repentance at such a moment is totally redundant, so the Lord does not make it. It is already accomplished.

In the end we must conclude from this that there are only two possibilities for any man. Either he is saved, and that salvation is eternal and irreversible, or else he is not saved, and whatever he thinks he has, it is not authentic.

But beyond the shadow of any doubt, there is no possibility in heaven or earth of anyone who is saved, ever erasing his name from the book of life. There is no sin big enough that God cannot forgive him, there is nothing he can ever do to separate himself from God's love.

Salvation is eternal and irreversible. However, when we believe, we have the promise of salvation, and only receive the actual salvation when Jesus returns. Until then we have the promise, vitrually salvation but not the actual thing.

Catherineanne said:
16 years ago I had a daughter. As I held her in my arms, did I say to her, 'I will love you as long as you do what I say, but if you don't I will prune you like a dead twig?' I don't think any parent will need the answer to that one. We are the same to God; we are his children, and co-heirs with Christ. He can no more disown us, than he can disown Christ himself. Our faith is a matter of relationship, not of behaviour. And because of this, the love which we are offered, and which we are then to offer to other people, is unconditional.

If God's love were not unconditional, it would also not be love. Coercion. Emotional blackmail. Bullying. Manipulation. But not love.

Stand at the foot of the cross once more, and look at Christ. Do you see emotional blackmail? There is your answer.

If we do not bear fruit, we bear no resemblance to the seed which we spring from, and will be thrown into the fire. Those who do not bear good fruit, are not even children of God, and to think that they are is a mistake.

Also, could you elaborate on why you say the love we are offered is unconditional? I kind of disagree with this, the way you posted it, and just wanted to clarify what you actually meant, before I go opening up a whole new can of worms here

NaLuvena · Sep 19, 2009

Catherineanne said:
Well, I am certain you are more than capable of thinking gravely for both of us. Frankly, to me, life is too short. My sins are laid at the foot of the cross, and I am not about to go and retrieve them.

Fair enough. I'm getting at the sins we commit after we've "returned" from the foot of the cross. What do you do with those? I return to the cross and place them there, in addition to the ones I placed before.

I'm not talking about retrieving the ones already there, but the sins we commit even after we have become believers and have been given the promise of salvation.

NaLuvena · Sep 19, 2009

Evangelica said:
Born into a sin nature. That's universal. That is sin. Sins otoh are what we as humans do daily.

True....

Yet, if we have a "sin nature" and do not sin at all, we still don't get into heaven, and receive eternal life. That's what I read in Scripture, anyway.

NaLuvena · Sep 19, 2009

Catherineanne said:
Can't you see I was trying not to argue?

OK, if you insist. You are mistaken. I'm ok, you're not ok.

Happy now?

Salvation is not like making a cake; 'if you miss out the egg it isn't a real cake.' Salvation is by grace, and it is not for any of us to deconstruct that grace and reduce it to a HUMAN formula.

There are examples of both in Scripture, but ultimately it is the heart which matters. If God offers his love, and I offer mine in return, then that love is a circle, and it is perfect. Not because of me, but because of God's sanctification. To imply that this is imperfect because I didn't say 'sorry' somewhere along the way is frankly plain downright wrong. As I have already said, it makes me capable of preventing something of God by what I do or do not do. God in Christ loves me; I love him in return. Nothing else is necessary. Whatever then follows is the product of that love; sent from him, reflected back by me like the moon reflects the sun, but NOT produced by me. Whatever is of love in me, was in Him first. And from that love, sent and reflected, follows everything else; works, faith, repentance, everything. Any order you like; it really matters not at all.

Check out 1 Corinthians 13 again, and you will find that this is what Paul says too. It is this love which is central, and it is love which always matters.

God's love is UNCONDITIONAL. And having experienced that love, repentance follows. Look at Matthew; he experiences the love and acceptance of God when Christ enters his house to have dinner. He does not need to be told to repent; it naturally follows the experience of God's love. And this is very, very far from the only experience in the Gospels. Repentance of past sin is the first fruit of salvation, not the agent of it.

God's grace is always the agent of salvation.

I apologise, if my posts came across as argumentative. that was not my intention. I was rather enjoying the back and forth discussion, and didn't intend for it to come across as an argument.

I just wanted to point out that I agree with the "flowchart" that you posted, with the addition of the repentance step.

If I may continue... (and I don't intend to be argumentative with this, but just wanted to share my view on your post).....

Salvation is EXACTLY like baking a cake.

If I bake a cake, and miss out one ingredient, or even get the measurements wrong, the cake isn't the cake I intended to bake.

Same thing with salvation. If one step is missed(or added for that matter) the results will be changed. Thing is though, we are not the baker, we are the cake....and I am soo grateful for that :clap:

Catherineanne said:
I will sleep easier tonight for having your approval of my English.

I defer to your obviously superior knowledge of the English language

Also, if you wish, I will stop replying to your posts

. I enjoy the discussion though, as it has been very thought provoking for me thus far.

NaLuvena · Sep 19, 2009

Catherineanne said:
Yes, well, that is where rewards comes in isn't it. Burned with fire and yet be saved. Saved to what? A place in the Kingdom. Rewards. What's the Kingdom consist of? Priests, kings and nations. There is only one King in the New Jerusalem. So where are the kings? Over the nations. And then there is the earthly inheritance which is of OT value.

I think I said we are saved to relationship, rather than to reward.

My parents are not my parents because of what I will inherit, but because of who we are, each to the other.

What question? What I see is rhetoric, not questioning. You ask, then you give an answer. What is left for anyone else to do?

Evangelica said:
ok, then let me ask you a question..saved to relationship and not reward...are you saying that rewards are moot and have no place in what motivates a person? Because personally rewards of heavenly value motivate me as much as money motivates others in this age.

or as part of the gospel?

IMO this example (Parents/Children) doesn't do justice to how we relate to our Heavenly Father, because we are adopted.

In adoption, the option to choose not to accept the other party, whether parent or child is always there, unlike being born into a family, where you're stuck with each other

Citizen of the Kingdom · Sep 19, 2009

NaLuvena said:
Sorry, this doesn't make sin more powerful than holiness. It means that God respects the decision a person makes, and will not force what He knows is good for us, if we choose not to accept it. Even after we accept salvation, we can still turn our back to God and walk away. The numerous warning in the epistles, encouraging us to continue until the end testify to this.

Yes.

So when is a person saved? It's only done if we continue to stay believers until we die. When we walk away from God, we don't get the crown of life promised to us.

When God does something, it stays done, I agree 100% with that. However, the walking away is our doing, something that God has let us decide upon.

True. However, this is something God lets each person decide upon for themselves, and respects the decision of the person. No one goes to Heaven against their will, salvation is not forced on anyone.

Salvation is eternal and irreversible. However, when we believe, we have the promise of salvation, and only receive the actual salvation when Jesus returns. Until then we have the promise, vitrually salvation but not the actual thing.

If we do not bear fruit, we bear no resemblance to the seed which we spring from, and will be thrown into the fire. Those who do not bear good fruit, are not even children of God, and to think that they are is a mistake.

Also, could you elaborate on why you say the love we are offered is unconditional? I kind of disagree with this, the way you posted it, and just wanted to clarify what you actually meant, before I go opening up a whole new can of worms here

Rewards are basically given as to the desires of the person to whom they are going. Not everyone chooses to be close to God. Judgment of brass are not for everyone. And they start at the throne.

NaLuvena said:
True....

Yet, if we have a "sin nature" and do not sin at all, we still don't get into heaven, and receive eternal life. That's what I read in Scripture, anyway.

Only Jesus Christ never sinned at all and yet if looked at according to traditional values mankind would condemn him as well.

NaLuvena said:
I apologise, if my posts came across as argumentative. that was not my intention. I was rather enjoying the back and forth discussion, and didn't intend for it to come across as an argument.

I just wanted to point out that I agree with the "flowchart" that you posted, with the addition of the repentance step.

If I may continue... (and I don't intend to be argumentative with this, but just wanted to share my view on your post).....

Salvation is EXACTLY like baking a cake.

If I bake a cake, and miss out one ingredient, or even get the measurements wrong, the cake isn't the cake I intended to bake.

Same thing with salvation. If one step is missed(or added for that matter) the results will be changed. Thing is though, we are not the baker, we are the cake....and I am soo grateful for that

I defer to your obviously superior knowledge of the English language

Also, if you wish, I will stop replying to your posts. I enjoy the discussion though, as it has been very thought provoking for me thus far.

True

NaLuvena said:
IMO this example (Parents/Children) doesn't do justice to how we relate to our Heavenly Father, because we are adopted.

In adoption, the option to choose not to accept the other party, whether parent or child is always there, unlike being born into a family, where you're stuck with each other

The old husband needs to die before remarraige is accepted according to Paul in Romans

Catherineanne · Sep 19, 2009

NaLuvena said:
Salvation is EXACTLY like baking a cake.

If I bake a cake, and miss out one ingredient, or even get the measurements wrong, the cake isn't the cake I intended to bake.

Same thing with salvation. If one step is missed(or added for that matter) the results will be changed. Thing is though, we are not the baker, we are the cake....and I am soo grateful for that

I am afraid you have this one mixed up. First you say we have to get the steps right, then you say we are not the baker.

Which is it? You can't have both.

Also, if you wish, I will stop replying to your posts. I enjoy the discussion though, as it has been very thought provoking for me thus far.

I don't mind anyone replying to anything. I mind being told I am wrong, but only because it is not polite. I try my best not to say the same in return, particularly when I like people, such as yourself.

That is why I tried to say you could have your version if you wanted, but you backed me into a corner so that I had to be clearer.

Sorry about that.

Catherineanne · Sep 19, 2009

NaLuvena said:
IMO this example (Parents/Children) doesn't do justice to how we relate to our Heavenly Father, because we are adopted.

In adoption, the option to choose not to accept the other party, whether parent or child is always there, unlike being born into a family, where you're stuck with each other

Not in law.

Here is a true story. Some years ago a young boy in the UK was given up by his family for adoption, and adopted by another. They then found him too challenging, so they gave him up for adoption once more, and left the country; they went to Australia; the husband and wife and their two girls. He was then institutionalised for the rest of his life.

Fast forward 60 years, and this man dies intestate in the UK, leaving a considerable amount of money. He has blood relations, who are found, but they are NOT eligible to inherit from him. Instead his estate is shared between the two girls - now elderly - who went to Australia, who are his legal heirs, even though they barely remember him, and have had nothing whatever to do with him for more than half a century.

Absolutely true.

We can all choose to have nothing to do with our family, whether of blood, marriage or adoption. God does not make such a choice. The parent: child motif may not tell us what God will do in any given situation, but it is very useful for telling us what he will never do, in a million years. Or more, come to that. God will never adopt us and then send us back, for example.

Catherineanne · Sep 19, 2009

Evangelica said:
True
The old husband needs to die before remarraige is accepted according to Paul in Romans

Paul in Romans is not universal, but advisory to a particular audience, as I think pretty well every denomination has realised by now.

If the church accepts remarriage, then it would be bizarre for God to reject it. The church cannot outdo God in compassion.

Crankitup · Sep 19, 2009

The thread seems to be straying a little off course from the OP IMO.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Sep 19, 2009

Catherineanne said:
Paul in Romans is not universal, but advisory to a particular audience, as I think pretty well every denomination has realised by now.

If the church accepts remarriage, then it would be bizarre for God to reject it. The church cannot outdo God in compassion.

To wrap that up in a balanced message the bond between husband and wife are just considered legal when viewed from the heavenlies.

lismore · Sep 19, 2009

t1wGl said:
I saw this in the statement of faith on a major denominational church's website this morning.

We believe in salvation through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:10; Romans 10:13-15)

So is repentance from sin neccesary for salvation?

An example.

Most Christians I have met say that babies who die go to be with Jesus. Now did the baby repent?

That denomination perhaps doesnt understand its own blurb. It probably believes babies who die got to be with Jesus. If it doesnt, 99% of the members will leave when they find that out.

Dont you think we are trying to simplify a very complicated world by reducing salvation to one line in a blurb.....

obsolete · Sep 19, 2009

lismore said:
An example.

Most Christians I have met say that babies who die go to be with Jesus. Now did the baby repent?

That denomination perhaps doesnt understand its own blurb. It probably believes babies who die got to be with Jesus. If it doesnt, 99% of the members will leave when they find that out.

Dont you think we are trying to simplify a very complicated world by reducing salvation to one line in a blurb.....

And the other 1%?

Catherineanne · Sep 19, 2009

Evangelica said:
To wrap that up in a balanced message the bond between husband and wife are just considered legal when viewed from the heavenlies.

God is not interested in law, but in relationship.

Did I omit to mention that?

Best part of 4,000 years, the whole of the OT, the Incarnation and the NT, and we still talk about what is legal in relation to God. Good grief! :liturgy:

Help me out here, Paul:

"The fruit of the Spirt is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5 v 22

lismore · Sep 19, 2009

obsolete said:
And the other 1%?

The other 1% wouldnt be bothered by the thought of babies being thrown into a fiery abyss.

Trish1947 · Sep 19, 2009

We are told to preach the Gospel. Not point out each and every sin that has to be repented of so we can be saved. Repentance is not a feeling of being sorry, even though you will feel remorseful about sin. Repentance is a turning away from sin. I remember hearing only one verse in the Bible for me to come to Jesus.."All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom. 3;23. That pretty much sealed it for me and had me ask the question, Lord what shall I do? This truely is my condition...I am a sinner and I have fallen short of the glory of God. Well I came to Jesus as my answer. It was Gods Son that didn't fall short. It was understanding that being in Jesus Christ, that it might be by faith in Him that saves me. It's after salvation, after the receiving of the Holy Spirit that you begin to learn what pleases Him. Walking in the Spirit will always take you much further than any written law could possible do. Laws of the Spirit such as: if someone asks you to walk a mile with them, go two. So how can a person live a life of true repentance, to be able to walk in the Spirit, without the Spirits law being written in our hearts that has the power to change us from the inside?

Ajax 777 · Sep 19, 2009

NaLuvena said:
Yet, if we have a "sin nature" and do not sin at all, we still don't get into heaven, and receive eternal life. That's what I read in Scripture, anyway.

This is heresy.

I agreed with everything you said up until this sentence,
but this is an evil statement. We all have a sin nature.

We are being redeemed from it, yes, but it is a potential struggle against sin
every day of life while yet in the flesh. We give glory to GOD for HIS grace,
but resist the devil. Yes, the devil tempts people to sin,
and sometimes he sends demons to harass and oppress people for years.

Yet GOD will not send the soul which trusts in HIM and endures with patience to Hell.
I have been oppressed by the enemy for a long time now,
but GOD assures me to be patient and trust in HIM and do not shrink back,
and neither you nor anyone else in here who arrogantly
presumes to know GOD better than me or anyone else
is going to tell me otherwise. It infuriates me when people come along and,
whether they mean to or not, speak words in ignorance or worse which twist the truth
and set others to stumble. Your words bring condemnation of more than sin and unrepentance.

I will pray for you, NaLuvena.

imperfectchristian · Sep 20, 2009

I have been watching the repentance thread and the different replies and I have been thinking about the subject and everything that has been said and also what my critques have told me and finally my own experiences and convictions.

Some times I wonder how well I really know myself.

I have been thinking about my personal experiences and what they bring to the table of my understanding.

Sometimes I think of all of us sitting around a living room in a log cabin in the mountains during the winter, snow on the ground in front of the fire, relaxed drinking coffee and what have you, discussing our personal faith.

Those are the kinds of conversations and relationships I long for, and on occasion take place here.

Tomorrow will be my last day in church. I will be starting a weekend job next weekend so I guess this will be my only church for a while.

I find it absolutely amazing that any of us ever find God, let alone hold on to Him in the twisting and ever changing world we live in.

We ask ourselves the question: what is my part in all of this? What do you want me to do God? Maybe most of you have that question settled in your heart. For me it is one that is never fully answered or defined.

Do I fail as a Christian? Yes I do and I believe it is failure that concerns all of us in one way or another. Not so much that God is going to stop loving me, but because in our hearts we want to do what is pleasing in His sight and we all eventually feel like we fail him in some way.

It is not always easy to do the right thing though. Some people show incredible discipline, but everyone has a crack in their foundation somewhere. As for myself, I made it my mission to seek out every crack in my foundation and puddy it. I was going to make things right in my life. What happen though is when I began to realize that the cracks were far more pronounced and numerous than I had ever imagined.

I got to the place where I realized that I could not fix these things. I could not even bandage them up a little. The whole thing was falling down, being suspended artificially and if I pulled one pole out from under the structure the whole thing would come crashing down.

I have come to realize that in my self, I am no different than anyone else.

Please realize, this is after salvation and after the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

NowI realize some people will say Paul is speaking about preconversion here, but what I am saying is that from my experience I testify that this is what I expereinced after salvation and being Spirit filled.

What am I saying? That I desire to do evil continually? No, but that the sinful nature is still present with me even though I am a Christian and that I am powerless to change it in and of myself because it is part of who I am in the flesh until I get to heaven. There is no getting around this.

So then, the concept of repentance from sin, in order to receive salvation, in it's truest context is an utter impossibility. Now if by saying that a person has to desire to be reconciled to what is good and right in order to be saved then I would have to say that I agree that that is a prerequisite to salvation. After all, a person has to want to come into the light. In other words, we have to be willing to admit that we are sinners.

If a person is willing to come to God honestly, admitting they are a sinner then it goes without saying that they are being repentant. That is that they are recognizing they are a sinner and that they need a Saviour.

Now then, let me say, I was in a state about 10 years ago where I began trying to repent of my sins and set myself right with God (after sinning)and it nearly drove me to suicide because of it. I would sin, repent, sin, repent, over and over and try harder and harder and fall harder and harder. Again, this is well after salvation and the baptism of the Spirit.

I was guilty of this Scripture:

Romans 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

When I finally did begin to re-learn to submit myself to God's righteousness, just as I experienced in salvation and the filling of the Spirit, then the weight of my burden was gone, and I felt loved, accepted just the way I was by God and began to feel love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, etc... all over again that I had missed so badly and was right there in front of me the whole time, I just had to reach out and put all my hope in and dependence on God.

It has been a series of ups and downs, but since last year when I began seriously studying Scripture again, I have been able for the most part, to rest in this grace consistently. I still have my off days, but I all it takes is a song about the blood of Jesus, or a Scripture about God reconciling me through Jesus on the cross and I am renewed once again.

Do you believe repentance is a prerequisite for salvation?

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