Can Christians lose there salvation?

Romans 5:17 and the other verses listed do mention receipt of God's gift. One who recieves is one who is chosen to be given to, not one who sees something and goers after it by the goodness of his own being.

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Hello, FOM! And a Merry Christmas to you (and all) too!

Rom5:17-18: "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and who receive the gift of righteousness will reign through the one, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression came condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness there came justification to ALL MEN." Do you see that it says, "receive the abundance of grace" and it says "receive the gift of righteousness"? Further, there is a direct comparison: "SO THEN, EVEN SO"---so then came condemnation to all, even so came justification to all. The universalness of condemnation through fallen Adam is EQUALLED to the unviersalness of the availability of justification to ALL MEN. Both phrases use "PAS ANTHROPOS", all men. Direct comparison, equality.

Because salvation is universally offered, and all who BELIEVE are justified, this one verse alone destroys the idea of "limited atonement" and "predestined-election"---salvation is offered to all.

As Jn3 says, "God did not send the son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the WORLD might be SAVED through Him. He who BELIEVES in Jesus is not judged; he who does NOT believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jn1:12 says, "For as many as RECEIVE Christ, to THEM He give the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." (Col2:6---"As you have RECEIVED Christ, so walk in Him.")

Some will say "we are His SHEEP, because He CHOSE us"---but Jn10:9 says "if ANYONE enters through Me (the door), he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture."

There does seem to be a contradiction at first, between the concepts "You did not choose Me but I chose you" and "I chose you before the foundation of the Earth"---and the many Scriptures like, "let O THELOS whosoever WILL take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17)---but Jesus explains this perfectly with the parable of Matt22. By verse 14, EVERYONE had been invited---but only those who CAME and clothed themselves with righteousness, only THEY became the chosen. Verse 14: "For many are CALLED but few are CHOSEN"---think about those words---if Jesus had believed in "limited atonement", OR "predestined-election", would He have said that? Is there any way to still believe that "many CALLED will NOT be chosen"? Do you see that their "chosen-ness" is because of their BELIEF?

To accomodate verses like Matt22:14 into "predestination", you hafta fabricate theories like "there is a GENERAL call and an EFFECIVE call---only the ELECT are called EFFECTIVELY---but, then, you are forced to admit, that you are calling God, INSINCERE---that He calls MOST, ineffectively (insincerely).

That is not the God that I know...

2Thess2:13 says "you were chosen from the beginning, by Spirit-sanctification and by FAITH"---if faith is from our own volition, then our "chosen from the beginning" is by our receiving the gift of salvation---which is, receiving CHRIST.

Just as Jesus parabled in Matt22...

I am not saying for a second that everyone in the whole world will be saved, that would be niave, however any person who accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour, IMO, will be saved, no question, I cannot accept that a God of grace would turn away anyone who asked in Jesus' name, with a remorseful heart, for forgiveness of their sins.

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Just so! Excellent!

"For WHOEVER will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved!" Rom10:13

To be fair, "PE" (or "Calvinists" or "Reformationists" or "Predestined Election" or "Irresistible Grace") also believes this---but, because of their belief that "BORN-AGAIN" is installed-by-God, they believe "only the PREDESTINED CAN call on His name." They believe "Born-Again causes belief, the "born-again" aspect being IMPOSED on their hearts by God; while we believe, "BELIEF/saving-faith causes BORN AGAIN". A fundamental difference...

I think that you guys believe as I used to, and it IS correct, but you are misunderstanding Limited Atonement. Limited Atonement, to MY understanding and how I believe, is NOT saying that Christ died for the Elect only, but that HE DID die for the ENTIRE world. I believe that! Limited Atonement simply states that before the foundations of the earth God knew who would accept His gift of salvation and THOSE people ONLY are the Elect and THEY are the one's that God died for. God died for those that believe. He DOES desire for ALL men to be saved, but KNOWS that all men are not going to accept and believe.

Here it is in another light...God set up this game...kinda like a role playing game...HE made the game and knows the moves that it takes to win it...knowing this to be true, HE puts HIS people where they need to be in order for the right moves to be made...we all know that all mankind will not be saved, and God chooses those whom HE chooses, it is up to Him, HE CHOOSES US WE DO NOT CHOOSE HIM, that's all Limited Atonement says that God chose those whom would be saved.

Matthew

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

IF the Father chooses to reveal Himself to people, then there must be those that He chose NOT to reveal Himself to.

Mark 13

20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Who are the elect?

Luke 2

14"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

peace for those that HIS FAVOR RESTS.

John 17

6"I have revealed you[1] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

If HE gave Jesus some then there must be some that HE DID NOT give Him.

Acts 2

39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

If God will call SOME then there must be some that HE DID NOT call

Romans 11

2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

God FOREKNEW HIS PEOPLE!

1 Corinthians 1

24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

GOD HAS CALLED HIS PEOPLE and to THOSE people are given CHRIST.

These scripture references are pretty plain in my eyes, and they speak to me as a CHOSEN child of God. This is also what Limited Atonement talks about. I hope this clarifies someone's ideas.

FOMWatts<><

Matthew, very good post. That is also my view of "limited atonement"---that God KNEW from the beginning. As Rom8 says, "for those whom He FOREKNEW, He predestined to be CONFORMED to the image of Christ." Thus the PREDESTINATION here, is conditioned on whom He FOREKNEW---fully predicated upon their FAITH.

If God will call SOME then there must be some that HE DID NOT call

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This seems to be our point of disagreement. I think Jesus told the parable of Matt22 for a purpose---to illustrate God's approach. By the end of the parable, ALL had been called, but only those who RECEIVED the invitation (they CAME), AND clothed themselves with righteousness, only THEY became the chosen.

Verse 14 is bold and incontravertible: "For MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN"; can this mean anything but that "many called are NOT CHOSEN"?

Romans 8 says "the FOREKNOWN are CALLED"---but does it say that the others are NOT CALLED? According to John12:32, Jesus will call EVERYONE! ("Helkuo" drag forcibly)

Thus, if atonement is limited, it is limited by MAN and not by GOD...

I don't see a difference in what you are saying than what I am saying, I just don't think I am getting my point out clearly, but ANYWAY, I do understand what you are saying I think we just have different terms for the idea, lol. Merry Christmas and much love and God's blessings

FOMWatts <><

I think we just have different terms for the idea, lol. Merry Christmas and much love and God's blessings

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And the same to you! EACH of you!

Tiny Tim---"God bless us, EVERY ONE!"

while its christmas and all...I was sitting in Church and I realized something when they were reading the scripture...

(Luke 2:13-14)13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

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and i realized...does God's favor rest on every one??? NO it doesn't because he wiped people from the face of the planet. And the term foreknew in Romans is more properly translated as to know intamately. And God doesnt know every one intamately. Because if he did then all would be saved. And if God chose people but they still had the choice they really wouldnt have been chosen would they. They would be the ones to whom the option is given. But the bible says the chosen so that means God bestowed faith in them. And not for anything that they did but only to those whom he wanted to save. Ane yes everyone is called, when they here the Gospel message. But this is the outward call of God. You can and most do, deny this calling. Although there is also an inward call which cannot be denied.

(Romans 11:29)For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

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ANd if you are inwardly called you will not fall away.

(John 8:36) If the son sets you free you will be free indeed.

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does God's favor rest on every one??? NO it doesn't because he wiped people from the face of the planet. And the term, "foreknew", in Romans is more properly translated as to know intimately. And God doesnt know every one intimately. Because if he did then all would be saved. And if God chose people but they still had the choice they really wouldn't have been chosen would they. They would be the ones to whom the option is given. But the bible says the chosen so that means God bestowed faith in them. And not for anything that they did but only to those whom he wanted to save. And yes everyone is called, when they hear the Gospel message. But this is the outward call of God. You can and most do, deny this calling. Although there is also an inward call which cannot be denied.

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Hello, N2C! My question for you, is, "can you document each of these statements with Scripture?" Where is the verse that differentiates between "Resistible OUTWARD and irresistible INWARD calls"? Doesn't Jn6:44 and 12:32 use the same Greek word for "CALL"? ("Helkuo, DRAG") How can you see "limited atonement" in verses like Rom5:17-18, and 1Jn2:2? What do you think Jesus meant, when He said: "For many are called but few are chosen"? Do you see two different calls here?

THere seem to be so many verses that present "volition". Take John15:14: "And you are My friends, IF you do what I command you." Anything of "you WILL do My commands BECAUSE I have chosen you?"

"But as many as received Christ, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. As you have therefore recieved CHrist Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him." Jn1:12, Col2:6

To accept "Predestined-Election", I would need to see a verse that asserts, "God IMPOSED faith on us, God installed believing-hearts". Do you know of any?

if ur called but not chosen it must have been a different calling not to be chosen.

With or without us, God will always be God. He will carry out His wonderful plan, regardless of our actions. He never HAD to promise us Eternal Security.
But God CHOSE to promise us Eternal Security. It was a pure act of grace on His part. He chose to COMFORT and STRENGTHEN us by making the promise:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28.

"Being confident of the very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37.

if ur called but not chosen it must have been a different calling not to be chosen.

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I think the question is, "what does chosen, mean?" Are we chosen by God, before we believe (and so the BELIEF is CONSEQUENTIAL to our BEING-CHOSEN), or do we believe FIRST which accomplishes our being CHOSEN by GOD? This is the reason that I persist in these discussions---it cuts to the heart of the NATURE of salvation. How could it not matter?

If we are PRE-CHOSEN by GOD, then faith-to-salvation is a one-way-unrejectable-GIFT. But Paul says "Faith (to salvation) comes from HEARING; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom10 Do you see faith-to-salvation directed GOD-TOWARD-MAN, or does Paul paint it as MAN-TOWARDS-GOD? All the Gospel seems to my understanding to be presented as, "Salvation for all who BELIEVE". I don't find a secret understanding that "belief is INSTALLED UNILATERALLY by God", or that "the ability to believe is ENABLED by God".

I was hoping that someone would "call me" on quoting the Jn1:12 verse (as many as received Christ), by quoting John1:13: "...who were born not of blood nor of the wil of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God." Sounds like God DECREED who would receive Christ, doesn't it? There are actually two ways to read verse 13---it doesn't say "but of the WILL of God"---it says "not born of our WILL but of GOD". There is no contradiction to "Resonsible Grace" (salvation offered to all, he-who-chooses-to-receive-it is saved). The second understanding, is that it DOES say "not of the will of man but of the will of God." But both "WILLs" in this verse, use the Greek, "THELEMA"---which is NOT "decree", it is "DESIRE". Thus it reads, "who were not born of the DESIRE of man but of the DESIRE of God."

"And this is the WILL (thelema-desire) of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life..." Jn6:40

"God ...desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:4 God DESIRES (thelo) ALL MEN (pas anthropos---all men THE WORLD) to come to TRUE SAVED KNOWLEDGE (epignosis).

God DESIRES. Not DECREES. "Decree" is "boulema", "desire" is "thelema" and "thelo". I simply do not find a verse that says, "God DECREES our salvation".

But God DOES DESIRE that all men the WORLD come to saving knowledge. How does that undeniable fact allow belief in "predestination"?

If FAITH-TO-SALVATION comes from US, then our "being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" encompasses that JESUS was PREDESTINED before the foundation, that all who BELIEVE are chosen in Him. 2Thess2:13 says, "...God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth". Unless you can demonstrate that "saving-faith comes from GOD" (rather than what Scripture seems to be saying, that saving-faith is from OUR OWN HEARTS), then this verse must compliment the parable of Matt22, "he who RECEIVES the invitation, and clothes himself with righteousness, BECOMES the chosen."

Jesus chose us from the beginning by His predestined sacrifice on the Cross.

Everyone who BELIEVES/RECEIVES-CHRIST/CHOOSES Him, becomes His chosen.

"Many are called but few are chosen"---the parable makes no distinction between the calling of those who were CHOSEN and the calling of those who were NOT chosen. Both received the same invitation. Only those who CAME, and put on righteousness, only THEY became the chosen. What else could Jesus have meant? What else?

"Let O THELOS (whosoever WILL) take of the water of life freely." Rev22:17

Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This Verse does not say or inply that God " tells us He loved us before we were saved, while we were lost", No Way.


Why does one have to run to the Greek to try to twist the Scriptures? You&nbsp;are still making&nbsp;the Bible harder to understand than it is.

Hi, Julie! We go to the Greek, because it was originally written in Greek. How else could we understand the deeper meaning of John21:15-17? In English, we think Jesus is merely asking Peter 3 times "do you love Me?" But in the GREEK, something far different is occurring. Jesus asks twice, "Peter do you AGAPE Me?" (total, unconditional love) Peter answers, "Lord, You know I PHILEOS You!" (brotherly, friendly love). So the THIRD time Jesus asks, JESUS says "Peter, do you phileos Me?" Jesus actually asked the THIRD time, with a resigned SIGH!

We go to the Greek to demonstrate the difference between "will-DECREE" and "will-DESIRE". What God decrees, MUST happen; what God desires, CAN happen.

If Jesus died for all who would believe, then He certainly "died for us WHILE we were dead in our sins". According to Rom5:8, He died for us while we were sinners because He LOVED us. I showed you a verse that says "God desires ALL MANKIND to be saved. Can you present a verse that says, "God loves only SOME"? Or that "all God LOVES WILL be saved"?

Salvation is by belief/faith; does God install that saving-belief, in SPITE of our desires, or do we believe out of our heart's conviction?

Does "BORN-AGAIN" cause belief? Or does belief cause "born-agaiin"?

Ben, are&nbsp;you going to Heaven or Hell?

Do you know the answer right now, or are you waiting to find out after you die?

Unfortunately, most people do NOT know the answer and are waiting to see how things turn out. People are living as though the Bible had never been written. People are living their lives in uncertainty, not considering the fact that God has spoken very clearly about their eternal destiny. What about you? Are you going to ignore God's word?

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"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

I know that I'm going to Heaven because GOD is preserving me. I'm not preserving my own Salvation. I wasn't saved by my good works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:5), so I do not STAY saved by my good works. I am KEPT by the POWER OF GOD, not by my own power! God is able to keep me from falling (Jude 24), because I'm HIS child and I'm in the palm of HIS hand (Jn. 10:28-29). Ephesians 4:30 says that I have been SEALED by the Holy Spirit of God until the day of redemption!

I'm not worried about losing my Salvation.

&nbsp;I KNOW I'm going to Heaven because I'm being preserved by God's power.

Ben, are you going to Heaven or Hell?

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Because salvation is fellowship with Christ and God (1Jn1:3,6), because salvation is receiving Christ, "I have been crucified with Christ, no longer I who live but Christ lives in Me---and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and died for me" (Gal2:20)---because salvation is IN CHRIST, I can know without any doubt whatsoever that I am saved and Heaven bound.

"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS the Son HAS THE LIFE; he who has not the Son of God HAS NOT THE LIFE. I write this that you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life." 1Jn5:11-13 This verse equates salvation with HAVING CHRIST---and boldly declares the way to HAVE CHRIST, is to BELIEVE!

Which is exactly what I have been saying all along.

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

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This verse says "Kept by God through faith"---the question between us, remains, "Is that OUR faith or is it the faith God IMPOSES on us?"

Jude says, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." What did Jude mean here? Did Jude really consider it a CHOICE, to keep ourselves in God's love, to eternal life? Two verses later, Jude echoes the verse you quoted in Peter: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy..." God is ABLE to---does He KEEP us from stumbling,
1. WITH our will, or
2. APART from our will?

Jude admonishes us to "keep ourselves in God's love"---so I do not think you can understand #2 above; it seems clear that Jude believed God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling, IF we ABIDE in Him, IN FAITH! Jude seems to be saying that SAVING FAITH is from US, rather than from God.

Peter, in 2:1:5-12, also presents salvation as something requiring OUR diligence and OUR attention. "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of your calling and election; for as long as you PRACTICE these things you will not PTAIO-stumble-BECOME-WRETCHED; for in THIS way the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven WILL BE ABUNDANTLY PROVIDED TO YOU! I do not believe there is a way that the gates will be LESS ABUNDANTLY but STILL PROVIDED---this seems mutually exclusive, that, as Peter says, "he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN his purification from former sins" (thus the GATES of HEAVEN will NOT be abundantly provided---meaning they won't be provided AT ALL! ) But look how Peter words this---"BE ALL THE MORE CERTAIN"---this is identical to the others, when they write: "WATCH YOURSELVES". Each and every verse speaking of "saving-faith", presents faith as directed US-TO-GOD.

"receiving as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls" 1Pet1:9 The Bible is filled with verses about faith---and every one of them presents it as something WE OURSELVES have. Even Hebrews 12:2, which some people understand to read "Jesus---the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith"---if we go to the Greek (not to TWIST the verses but to correctly understand the meaning of the WRITER), we see "AUTHOR" is "LEADER or PRINCE"; and "FINISHER" is "leader-by-EXAMPLE". I don't think Hebrews' writer intended to convey that "Jesus INSTALLS saving faith in us", but rather LEADS and EXEMPLIFIES faith for us. Especially since we read chapter 3, warning us not to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God, and chapter 10's admonishments (like "do not throw away your CONFIDENCE/JESUS, you need to ENDURE so that when you have done God's will you may receive the PROMISE). I think, contextually, Hebrews' writer (I think it was Paul) strongly endorses the others' contention that FAITH is from US---we need to persevere, to walk with Him and abide in Him---all this, because, as I said in the first words of this post, salvation is IN CHRIST---abiding, walking, FELLOWSHIPPING!

The difference between "Predestined-Election", and "Responsible Grace", remains: "Does BORN AGAIN cause faith, or does faith cause BORN AGAIN"?

Julie, even if we remain disagreeing on this, I hope that you can understand now what I believe, and respect why I believe that it is Scriptural; as I understand and respect you and what you believe...

Like Ben said in another post somewhere, lol...we DO agree that Jesus died for our sins and rose again and conquered death to bring us salvation,,, and when it comes down to it, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS!
God bless!

FOMWatts<><

@ FOMWatts

Ben, the Bible says "he that hath the son hath life and he that hath not the son hath not life" You got it or you don't, it's that simple.

ALL BELIEVERS ARE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" (Eph. 5:30).

"But now hath God set the members every one of them IN THE BODY, AS IT HATH PLEASED HIM.. .Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST..." (I Cor.12:18,27).