What's the Difference?

DaRev

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
15,117
716
✟19,002.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
But, to expand on the salvation without repentance thing. Yes, young children do have remorse for things they've done wrong. In fact, they are often better at it than we are. But, your six month old baby isn't capable of repentance. They don't even understand that they've done something wrong when they whack you across the nose with their rattle. Were that child to die after doing so, wouldn't they be saved if baptized and in a state of faith? That's my sole objection to the idea that we must repent before being saved. And, it's why I think we are saved when God gives us faith. Faith in a working mind will induce repentance. But, in a grossly immature mind (as in a six-month old or a profoundly retarded individual), repentance isn't possible.

But here, what you are saying that repentance is a work of ours. How do you know that God the Holy Spirit hasn't worked repentance in that 6-month-old? Simply because they cannot express it verbally? None of us is capable of repenting. That's why God works it in us, regardless of our ability to express it. I would think that an infant is less likely to reject the work of the Spirit due to ignorance.

Knowledge or ability has nothing to do with repentance for the Christian. Repentance is a work of God in us, not a work from us.
 
Upvote 0

BelindaP

Senior Contributor
Sep 21, 2006
9,214
711
Indianapolis
✟20,888.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But here, what you are saying that repentance is a work of ours. How do you know that God the Holy Spirit hasn't worked repentance in that 6-month-old? Simply because they cannot express it verbally? None of us is capable of repenting. That's why God works it in us, regardless of our ability to express it. I would think that an infant is less likely to reject the work of the Spirit due to ignorance.

Knowledge or ability has nothing to do with repentance for the Christian. Repentance is a work of God in us, not a work from us.
Oy, this sounds familiar. Takes me back to the infant baptism discussions I had before my conversion to Lutheranism ye odd years ago. I guess I still haven't beaten every last trace of the old sotierology out of my understanding yet. [Which is what probably makes me so susceptible to calvinist teachings.]

What you say makes sense. But, I need to ponder and pray a bit. [Saves God having to pound so much on my very hard head. :D]
 
Upvote 0

DaRev

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
15,117
716
✟19,002.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Oy, this sounds familiar. Takes me back to the infant baptism discussions I had before my conversion to Lutheranism ye odd years ago. I guess I still haven't beaten every last trace of the old sotierology out of my understanding yet. [Which is what probably makes me so susceptible to calvinist teachings.]

What you say makes sense. But, I need to ponder and pray a bit. [Saves God having to pound so much on my very hard head. :D]

As St. Paul says, "Pray without ceasing." :)
 
Upvote 0

QuiltAngel

Veteran
Apr 10, 2006
5,355
311
Somewhere on planet earth
✟15,847.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Oy, this sounds familiar. Takes me back to the infant baptism discussions I had before my conversion to Lutheranism ye odd years ago. I guess I still haven't beaten every last trace of the old sotierology out of my understanding yet. [Which is what probably makes me so susceptible to calvinist teachings.]

What you say makes sense. But, I need to ponder and pray a bit. [Saves God having to pound so much on my very hard head. :D]

Belinda, might I suggest that while you are studying the Lutheran Confessions that you stick to posting here and stay out of GT and CC and other theological areas of CF for a while. If there is a post in those areas that you think a Lutheran needs to reply to, PM one of our members and ask them for help. Many of us stay away from those discussions as many of the people there are good at twisting what others say or it looks like they are saying the same things when they have different meanings for similar terms.

Read, listen and ask questions. Be slow on the posting replies for a while. Some of us do much more reading than posting and we learn a lot from our members here. I am one of those. I don't normally jump into the theological discussions unless I really have a question or feel that I can help others listen to each other, maybe trying to clarify what is being said.

The fact that you are here asking gives me hope that you are here to learn. The fact that you continue discussing after your discussion with Zec gives me hope that you do want to understand Lutheran theology. It IS hard to leave behind beliefs that we grew up with. It can be done.
 
Upvote 0

BelindaP

Senior Contributor
Sep 21, 2006
9,214
711
Indianapolis
✟20,888.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I am trying to work things out. But, I feel bad that Zec feels he has to exclude himself from this forum. I originally posted here because I had a question about the difference between the two synods, and the subforum seemed the best place. Perhaps I should ask a mod to move the thread to the main forum so Zec continues to have a home forum.
 
Upvote 0

QuiltAngel

Veteran
Apr 10, 2006
5,355
311
Somewhere on planet earth
✟15,847.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I am trying to work things out. But, I feel bad that Zec feels he has to exclude himself from this forum. I originally posted here because I had a question about the difference between the two synods, and the subforum seemed the best place. Perhaps I should ask a mod to move the thread to the main forum so Zec continues to have a home forum.

If you think that is best for this thread, though it will invite non WELS and LCMS to reply which I am not sure you want that if you truly want to understand the theology the LCMS ascribes to.

I might suggest too that both you and Zec not reply to other's posts/threads for a while. I think Zec is willing to do that on this thread and let others of us in the WELS and/or the LCMS answer your questions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LilLamb219
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TheCosmicGospel

Regular Member
Feb 3, 2007
654
70
✟8,670.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
A Christian calvinist doesn't hold to the L in TULIP. It's a pun (no-L).

While we do believe in the election of the saints, we don't believe in predestination to hell. Jesus' atonement was for everyone, not just the elect. If somebody is willing to explain to me how that's inconsistent with the Confessions, I am more than willing to listen. Thus far, I've been called non-Lutheran for it, but nobody's taken time to explain why.

There is probably a good reason why hunters don't camoflogue themselves as deer. When one uses terms like "election", "predestination", one may be using Calvinist misunderstandings that other Lutherans are not going to accept.

The Calvinist approach to predestination is much different than a Lutheran's. Perhaps when you can distinguish them, the confusion might end. What looks like a deer may get you shot.

Peace,

Cos
 
Upvote 0

DaRev

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
15,117
716
✟19,002.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
There is probably a good reason why hunters don't camoflogue themselves as deer.

Pardon me for hijacking the thread, but this reminds me of a true story.

There was a guy who went hunting wearing a camoflage jacket with a picture of a deer head on the back. Another hunter saw the deer head through the brush and shot the guy. (I believe he survived and is fine.) It was an accident, but the shooter needed to be charged with something, so the state police charged him with shooting game out of season because the picture on the guy's coat was of a doe and the shooter didn't have a doe permit.

True story.

^_^
 
Upvote 0

synger

Confessional Liturgical Lutheran
Supporter
Sep 12, 2006
14,537
1,565
59
✟44,856.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Can you explain the difference to me? It's always been a bit hazy to me.

I can try. I'm not a pastor, but I grew up in the Reformed tradition, and studied and believed their confessions and catechisms for many years.

From my understanding, when Lutherans speak of "predestination", we speak of God foreknowing those who will follow Him. His grace is given for all, but while we can't DO anything to believe IN him apart from faith, we can certainly turn away from him and resist the Holy Spirit's call and work. The Solid Declaration of Concord has a whole (long, wordy, dense) section on Election. It deals a lot with the predestination to election, but then gets into the idea around paragraph 78 and beyond that WE choose to reject God. So it comes down to "God chooses us for election, we choose to reject God and live without him"

78] But the reason why not all who hear it believe, and some are therefore condemned the more deeply [eternally to severer punishments], is not because God had begrudged them their salvation; but it is their own fault, as they have heard the Word in such a manner as not to learn, but only to despise, blaspheme, and disgrace it, and have resisted the Holy Ghost, who through the Word wished to work in them, as was the case at the time of Christ with the Pharisees and their adherents. 79] Hence the apostle distinguishes with especial care the work of God, who alone makes vessels of honor, and the work of the devil and of man, who by the instigation of the devil, and not of God, has made himself a vessel of dishonor. For thus it is written, Rom. 9:22f : God endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.

80] Here, then, the apostle clearly says that God endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath, but does not say that He made them vessels of wrath; for if this had been His will, He would not have required any great long-suffering for it. The fault, however, that they are fitted for destruction belongs to the devil and to men themselves, and not to God.



81] For all preparation for condemnation is by the devil and man, through sin, and in no respect by God, who does not wish that any man be damned; how, then, should He Himself prepare any man for condemnation? For as God is not a cause of sins, so, too, He is no cause of punishment, of damnation; but the only cause of damnation is sin; for the wages of sin is death, Rom. 6:23. And as God does not will sin, and has no pleasure in sin, so He does not wish the death of the sinner either, Ezek. 33:11, nor has He pleasure in his condemnation. For He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3:9. So, too, it is written in Ezek. 18:23; 33:11: As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. 82] And St. Paul testifies in clear words that from vessels of dishonor vessels of honor may be made by God's power and working, when he writes thus, 2 Tim. 2:21: If a man, therefore, purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work. For he who is to purge himself must first have been unclean, and hence a vessel of dishonor. But concerning the vessels of mercy he says clearly that the Lord Himself has prepared them for glory, which he does not say concerning the damned, who themselves, and not God, have prepared themselves as vessels of damnation.

The Reformed, on the other hand, teach that God not only foreknows who will come to him and causes them to come, but he ALSO actively chooses those who will be "reprobate". This is sometimes called "double predestination"... God both elects his people, and declares the others reprobate and condemns them. Most Calvinists I talk to are actually closer to Lutheran thought on this -- they do not agree with their own confessions about God's condemnation of unbelievers.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith (there isn't one article specifically on election, but it's throughout):

Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Confession, Chapter III, Of God's Eternal Decree, para VII.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice

Chapter V, Of Provicence, para VI

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21] from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26]

Chapter X, Of Effectual Calling, para IV

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]


So from reading this, and the Lutheran confessions, I usually try to explain it as follows:

In general, Lutherans teach that God elects his believers, but that humans can reject him.

Reformed confessions teach that God both elects believers and condemns non-believers, while simultaneously denying that God is the author of evil and non-belief.
 
Upvote 0

BelindaP

Senior Contributor
Sep 21, 2006
9,214
711
Indianapolis
✟20,888.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This may be where I got the two confused. The calvinist I've been talking to has very close to the Lutheran view. That's why he calls himself a Christmas calvinist, because he doesn't believe in limited atonement. Jesus died for us all, and God didn't select certain people for damnation. I thought he was talking about the orthodox calvinist view, but evidently he is more Lutheran than calvinist on that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tangible

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
May 29, 2009
9,837
1,416
cruce tectum
Visit site
✟59,743.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Maybe it's better to let the Lutherans be Lutherans and the Calvinists be Calvinists; that is, don't try to define one in terms of the other. That way you won't confuse people by saying "I'm a Lutheran" and "I'm a (whatever) Calvinist" be it Christmas, Easter, or Groundhog Day.
 
Upvote 0

BelindaP

Senior Contributor
Sep 21, 2006
9,214
711
Indianapolis
✟20,888.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
OK, OK, I get it. Lutheran =/= Calvinist. Mutually exclusive, dropped from my vocabulary. Alright?

I would like to start a thread to discuss the Confessions. I'm pretty nervous about doing this because people tend to jump all over people and label them 'not Lutheran' for the least deviation in belief. Yet, I'm having problems with a few of the articles and would like to discuss them. It is entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding something or getting wires crossed. I would appreciate it if folks took a teaching tact with me rather than a labeling tact. I got confirmed on the contents of the Small Catechism from a pretty screwed-up sotierology. Some remnants likely remain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: synger
Upvote 0

PreachersWife2004

by his wounds we are healed
Supporter
May 15, 2007
38,590
4,179
50
Land O' 10,000 Lakes
✟84,030.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
OK, OK, I get it. Lutheran =/= Calvinist. Mutually exclusive, dropped from my vocabulary. Alright?

I would like to start a thread to discuss the Confessions. I'm pretty nervous about doing this because people tend to jump all over people and label them 'not Lutheran' for the least deviation in belief. Yet, I'm having problems with a few of the articles and would like to discuss them. It is entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding something or getting wires crossed. I would appreciate it if folks took a teaching tact with me rather than a labeling tact. I got confirmed on the contents of the Small Catechism from a pretty screwed-up sotierology. Some remnants likely remain.

Generally, you should note that labels of "not lutheran" often are directed at those who consistently and regularly deny parts of the confessions, not those actively seeking counsel on the confessions. There's a HUGE difference in saying "I don't understand this part" and "This part makes no sense so this is what I believe".
 
Upvote 0

Tangible

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
May 29, 2009
9,837
1,416
cruce tectum
Visit site
✟59,743.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Alright! :thumbsup:

I'd be interested in a discussion of the confessions too. I've read bits and pieces of the BoC (mostly in the Treasury of Daily Prayer) but I haven't done a thorough study of any of the major parts except the Sm Cat.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BelindaP

Senior Contributor
Sep 21, 2006
9,214
711
Indianapolis
✟20,888.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Generally, you should note that labels of "not lutheran" often are directed at those who consistently and regularly deny parts of the confessions, not those actively seeking counsel on the confessions. There's a HUGE difference in saying "I don't understand this part" and "This part makes no sense so this is what I believe".
Sometimes people get jumped on for arguing points, though. And my learning style is a bit argumentative. Perhaps it's silly, but I'm vulnerable on this point.
 
Upvote 0