The Apparent Contradiction Between a Loving God and Eternal Punishment
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Nadiine
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Well Christ is either God or He's not.
As with eternal separation, you don't BOTH have eternal separation
AND eternal life in God's kingdom.
It states it repeatedly, and even the gospel message with the
fact that God sends the messages and warnings to repent
or be condemned and allows Satan access to tempt and decieve
shows us choice is involved here.
Either way, God's word isn't self refuting. It doesn't teach both
doctrines.
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A New Dawn
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You are the one who started this thread, you are the one who stated that eternal punishment doesn't mesh with your idea of what a loving God is. Therefore, it is your definition of "loving" that is in question. I posted the Biblical definition of agape, the word that is always applied to God. I don't know what your definition is, though, so why don't you post it so that we don't have to guess at each others thoughts on the subject.
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
Ugghhh, can't be?
....Hopefully God doesn't need to conform to your finite human understanding of what divine justice entails for you to love Him back. Whether it's eternal or not, this should not affect your opinion of Him one iota. Right? But remember, if God describes all man's righteous deeds as "filthy rags" to Him, what human description can be put on the wicked deeds of man? IOW, if wicked deeds demand eternal wrath, why would that surprise you?
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Actually, it does appear to. The Bible is a human book, a collection of the accounts of great-souled men and women and their experiences with God.
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You are the one who started this thread, you are the one who stated that eternal punishment doesn't mesh with your idea of what a loving God is. Therefore, it is your definition of "loving" that is in question. I posted the Biblical definition of agape, the word that is always applied to God. I don't know what your definition is, though, so why don't you post it so that we don't have to guess at each others thoughts on the subject.
Yes, you would do well to do less guessing. Could have saved a lot of trouble and disrespect if you had simply asked earlier.
I don't recall you posting a single Bible verse in this topic, let alone on the subject of love. If your definition from pages ago (paraphrased, 'wanting good for the object loved') is what you mean by it, then I don't mean anything different.
If, however, you are referring to some phantom post that I have not seen, then: God's love is capacious, it is all-encompassing, it is here and there, it is the basis for the relationship of the Trinity, it is the most fundamental connection God has to me, and it is what I desire most in my connection to him. It is unconditional, it is unchanging, it is overpowering, it is subservient, it is kind, it is sustaining. It is creative, it is substantial, it is patient.
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Christians are always willing to say that the love of God is beyond their imagination, until someone takes it a bit too far, and they essentially say, 'Whoa, God isn't THAT loving. Back up, back up.'
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The Bible indeed is the source of truth, and has clear answers about this. Two accounts of the final destruction of the wicked are found, one in Malachi 4, and one in Rev. 20. In Mal. 4, fire burns up the wicked, 'root and branch,' and what is left is ashes. In Rev. 20, fire comes down from heaven and devours, literally eats up the wicked. Both accounts point to the total destruction of the wicked. Jesus also told a parable about the destruction of the wicked, or several parables, about them being gathered in bundles and burned, parallelling the Mal. 4 account. There is one reference to everlasting punishment. A companion reference describes the everlasting punishment--'everlasting destruction.' They are destroyed forever, they are ashes, and at the end of it all, God creates a new heavens and new earth, with the former things, including sin and sinners, passed away, and all things created new.
Dave
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
My responses were not about the topic of eternal damnation vs annihilation. It was about the creator God having every right to do as He pleases with the created. But your arguments for annilation will have to be taken up with Jesus own words on the topic.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
[SIZE=-1](Mat 25:41 & 46)
"And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where
their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
[SIZE=-1](Mark 9:45-46)[/SIZE]
"And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
[SIZE=-1](Luke 16:23-24)[/SIZE]
"The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
[SIZE=-1](Mat 13:41-42)[/SIZE]
"So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
[SIZE=-1]Mat 13:49-50[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
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Two questions: first, which Bible version are you using here? Second, you have inserted the word 'conscience' next to 'worm.' What is your authority for doing so?
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Nadiine
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Nobody knows the fullness of all God's attributes,
but He certainly won't be giving us false information
in what limited knowledge we do have.
Again Tissue, tell us how loving you think it would be
if YOU had the power to stop a child from being raped
and murdered, but you didn't stop it.
God has proven that He allows horrible things to happen
that you otherwise wouldn't let happen in your ideal of
"Love".
So clearly, God has a higher purpose and depth to His
love than you or I do.
We can know what God's love is by what we are given
to know and by what we see and experience too,
but we won't know the full extent of it in this lifetime
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A New Dawn
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God's love is subservient? What is His love subservient to?
I have to ask, you suggested I be (what was the word?) respectful. I have been attempting to be respectful in the face of numerous invalid accusations. Perhaps you could show a bit of respect, as you ask of me.
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A New Dawn
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And here we go back to God is omnipotent. God is sovereign. God is just. God is holy, etc. To each of these things we also say "God is waaay beyond what we can imagine". It doesn't mean that we think that God is less loving, but that we believe that He is waaay holy, and waaay sovereign, and waaay just, also. You attempting to put those attributes in a different slot so they don't have to be dealt with doesn't mean that they don't have to be dealt with. They are as much a part of God as love is (and just as driving a factor). That is why this discussion doesn't work.
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Eternal as in finality, or eternally burning?
Compare 2 Thess. 1:8 - 10:
As noted earlier, you have of course added the word 'conscience' which is neither in the original nor anywhere close to it. The gr. word actually does mean 'worms,' the crawling things. The picture is of Gehenna, the garbage dump, in which the fire consumed the refuse, and at the edge of the fire the worms consumed what the fire did not!
The Hebrew use of the word 'unquenchable fire' means that so long as there is anything left to consume, it will continue burning. Several examples may be shown from Scripture.
This is consistent with Malachi 4, where the wicked will be burned up, root and branch, and all 'they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet,' and Rev. 20, the wicked will be devoured.
This, again, shows the fire of destruction at the end of the world. The wicked are cast into the furnace of fire. The passage does not say how long the fire will burn, but other passages do, for example Rev. 20 which says that fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Dave
Oh, I forgot the rich man and lazarus. The story was circulated in Hellenistic Judaism, and reportedly is found in the Gemara Babylonicum. It is not Scriptural. Nor is it consistent with the other passages you quoted, such as the one about the fire at the end of the world. It does reflect beliefs of Hellenistic Judaism, with which Jesus hearers were familiar. The point of the story was that riches are not a guarantee of salvation, and the importance of the Scriptures. The Bible does not teach that the abode of the righteous dead is the bosom of Abraham. nor does the Bible teach that heaven and hell are within shouting distance, separated by a great chasm! But that was the belief of the Hellenists, and a very similar account may be found in the writings of Josephus. It is not Scriptural.
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For those who may have missed this short paper by Dr. R.C. Sproul posted in the beginning of the thread I will post it again as the thread is begining to go in circles and cover areas already covered.
HELL
by R.C. Sproul
We have often heard statements such as War is hell or I went through hell. These expressions are, of course, not taken literally. Rather, they reflect our tendency to use the word hell as a descriptive term for the most ghastly human experience possible. Yet no human experience in this world is actually comparable to hell. If we try to imagine the worst of all possible suffering in the here and now we have not yet stretched our imaginations to reach the dreadful reality of hell.
Hell is trivialized when it is used as a common curse word. To use the word lightly may be a halfhearted human attempt to take the concept lightly or to treat it in an amusing way. We tend to joke about things most frightening to us in a futile effort to declaw and defang them, reducing their threatening power.
There is no biblical concept more grim or terror-invoking than the idea of hell. It is so unpopular with us that few would give credence to it at all except that it comes to us from the teaching of Christ Himself.
Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus. It is this doctrine, perhaps more than any other, that strains even the Christians loyalty to the teaching of Christ. Modern Christians have pushed the limits of minimizing hell in an effort to sidestep or soften Jesus own teaching. The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesnt turn or die. These graphic images of eternal punishment provoke the question, should we take these descriptions literally or are they merely symbols?
I suspect they are symbols, but I find no relief in that. We must not think of them as being merely symbols. It is probable that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal abode to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image. If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain. That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols.
A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, Hell is a symbol for separation from God. To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.
No matter how we analyze the concept of hell it often sounds to us as a place of cruel and unusual punishment. If, however, we can take any comfort in the concept of hell, we can take it in the full assurance that there will be no cruelty there. It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. Cruelty in this sense is unjust. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.
Perhaps the most frightening aspect of hell is its eternality. People can endure the greatest agony if they know it will ultimately stop. In hell there is no such hope. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. Mere annihilation, which some have lobbied for, involves no pain. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God. (John H. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell [Orlando: Ligonier Ministries, 1991], 75.)
Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief. Understanding this is crucial to our drive to appreciate the work of Christ and to preach His gospel.
Summary
Link: R.C. Sproul on Hell
HELL
by R.C. Sproul
We have often heard statements such as War is hell or I went through hell. These expressions are, of course, not taken literally. Rather, they reflect our tendency to use the word hell as a descriptive term for the most ghastly human experience possible. Yet no human experience in this world is actually comparable to hell. If we try to imagine the worst of all possible suffering in the here and now we have not yet stretched our imaginations to reach the dreadful reality of hell.
Hell is trivialized when it is used as a common curse word. To use the word lightly may be a halfhearted human attempt to take the concept lightly or to treat it in an amusing way. We tend to joke about things most frightening to us in a futile effort to declaw and defang them, reducing their threatening power.
There is no biblical concept more grim or terror-invoking than the idea of hell. It is so unpopular with us that few would give credence to it at all except that it comes to us from the teaching of Christ Himself.
Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus. It is this doctrine, perhaps more than any other, that strains even the Christians loyalty to the teaching of Christ. Modern Christians have pushed the limits of minimizing hell in an effort to sidestep or soften Jesus own teaching. The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesnt turn or die. These graphic images of eternal punishment provoke the question, should we take these descriptions literally or are they merely symbols?
I suspect they are symbols, but I find no relief in that. We must not think of them as being merely symbols. It is probable that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal abode to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image. If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain. That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols.
A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, Hell is a symbol for separation from God. To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.
No matter how we analyze the concept of hell it often sounds to us as a place of cruel and unusual punishment. If, however, we can take any comfort in the concept of hell, we can take it in the full assurance that there will be no cruelty there. It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. Cruelty in this sense is unjust. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.
Perhaps the most frightening aspect of hell is its eternality. People can endure the greatest agony if they know it will ultimately stop. In hell there is no such hope. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. Mere annihilation, which some have lobbied for, involves no pain. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God. (John H. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell [Orlando: Ligonier Ministries, 1991], 75.)
Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief. Understanding this is crucial to our drive to appreciate the work of Christ and to preach His gospel.
Summary
- The suffering of hell is beyond any experience of misery found in this world.
- Hell is clearly included in the teaching of Jesus.
- If the biblical descriptions of hell are symbols, then the reality will be worse than the symbols.
- Hell is the presence of God in His wrath and judgment.
- There is no cruelty in hell. Hell will be a place of perfect justice.
- Hell is eternal. There is no escape through either repentance or annihilation.
Link: R.C. Sproul on Hell
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I agree with this post.
Funny thing...I was raped when I was younger, and never had I blamed God for allowing it to happen. It was the guy's fault the whole way through, it was his decision to do so. But through the rape, I've seen God strengthen me an many areas and He allowed such a horrible situation to teach me how to forgive. Should a loving God allow us to learn forgiveness through such a horrible tragedy? For me to say no, puts me in a position to be higher than God, I trust He knows what He's doing. But without horrible tragedies or general ones, what does forgiveness mean?
God gave us a will and He gave us commands and we can choose to do what is right or do what is wrong, but that isn't His fault when we choose to go against Him. For He stood for truth and He told us what is right, when we go against that and we and others suffer because of it, why then do we blame Him? Did He not warn us? I think the one thing the world should learn is that our actions right or wrong have consequences and sometime hard ones, but that doesn't mean that God is not love.
And as for the original post of eternal punishment, God sent His Son to die that we might believe in Him. If He tells us that it is His wish and want us to be an a right relationship with Him and He wants us to do what is right as oppose to evil. if He warns that if we do not repent and turn away from our sins then we will be cast in the lake of fire, why are we then shocked when He actually will do as He says? It's not like He left us hopeless, He gave us His Son.
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