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but your "truth" comes to the exclusion of OTHER TRUTH'S
plainly taught.
Most truths worth anything exclude other possibilities.
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but your "truth" comes to the exclusion of OTHER TRUTH'S
plainly taught.
Well Christ is either God or He's not.Most truths worth anything exclude other possibilities.
And here is where the psychoanalysis comes in. You're accusing me if reading the Bible and digging out only what I want.
I am open to Scripture. I am open to discovering TRUTH. I am looking for truth. Why would I try to construct an illusion for myself? I am not like the deluded, who think that they decide what is real and what is not. I am no solipsist.
There is an accusation in your post, well hidden behind conjunctions and thin etiquette, but it is there nevertheless. I am no solipsist. Your psychoanalysis is incorrect. I am looking for something. What you have found, I cannot affirm; it is revolting, it is hateful, it is not loving. I can no more call it 'loving' than I can call water 'dry'.
Ugghhh, can't be?That some will be judged, and some will go to hell. I get it. I'm not arguing with that.
Just, hell can't be eternal.
Either way, God's word isn't self refuting. It doesn't teach both doctrines.
You are the one who started this thread, you are the one who stated that eternal punishment doesn't mesh with your idea of what a loving God is. Therefore, it is your definition of "loving" that is in question. I posted the Biblical definition of agape, the word that is always applied to God. I don't know what your definition is, though, so why don't you post it so that we don't have to guess at each others thoughts on the subject.
Let us suppose you are looking for truth. It is somewhat hard to find, and hard to identify when it is found. It is, in fact, a life goal, insofar as lifetimes are spent looking for it.
Now let's suppose someone, who knows nothing about you, tells you that you're not really looking for truth, you're just looking for what you want to be true.
That is the source of my frustration.
Ugghhh, can't be?
....Hopefully God doesn't need to conform to your finite human understanding of what divine justice entails for you to love Him back. Whether it's eternal or not, this should not affect your opinion of Him one iota. Right? But remember, if God describes all man's righteous deeds as "filthy rags" to Him, what human description can be put on the wicked deeds of man? IOW, if wicked deeds demand eternal wrath, why would that surprise you?
My responses were not about the topic of eternal damnation vs annihilation. It was about the creator God having every right to do as He pleases with the created. But your arguments for annilation will have to be taken up with Jesus own words on the topic.The Bible indeed is the source of truth, and has clear answers about this. Two accounts of the final destruction of the wicked are found, one in Malachi 4, and one in Rev. 20. In Mal. 4, fire burns up the wicked, 'root and branch,' and what is left is ashes. In Rev. 20, fire comes down from heaven and devours, literally eats up the wicked. Both accounts point to the total destruction of the wicked. Jesus also told a parable about the destruction of the wicked, or several parables, about them being gathered in bundles and burned, parallelling the Mal. 4 account. There is one reference to everlasting punishment. A companion reference describes the everlasting punishment--'everlasting destruction.' They are destroyed forever, they are ashes, and at the end of it all, God creates a new heavens and new earth, with the former things, including sin and sinners, passed away, and all things created new.
Dave
My responses were not about the topic of eternal damnation vs annihilation. It was about the creator God has every right to do as He pleases with the created. But your arguments for annilation will have to be taken up with Jesus own words on the topic.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
[SIZE=-1](Mat 25:41 & 46)
"And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where
their worm [SIZE=-1](conscience)[/SIZE] dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
[SIZE=-1](Mark 9:45-46)[/SIZE]
"And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
[SIZE=-1](Luke 16:23-24)[/SIZE]
"The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
[SIZE=-1](Mat 13:41-42)[/SIZE]
"So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
[SIZE=-1]Mat 13:49-50[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
My responses were not about the topic of eternal damnation vs annihilation. It was about the creator God has every right to do as He pleases with the created. But your arguments for annilation will have to be taken up with Jesus own words on the topic.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
[SIZE=-1](Mat 25:41 & 46)
"And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where
their worm [SIZE=-1](conscience)[/SIZE] dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
[SIZE=-1](Mark 9:45-46)[/SIZE]
"And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
[SIZE=-1](Luke 16:23-24)[/SIZE]
"The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
[SIZE=-1](Mat 13:41-42)[/SIZE]
"So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
[SIZE=-1]Mat 13:49-50[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
Nobody knows the fullness of all God's attributes,Christians are always willing to say that the love of God is beyond their imagination, until someone takes it a bit too far, and they essentially say, 'Whoa, God isn't THAT loving. Back up, back up.'
Yes, you would do well to do less guessing. Could have saved a lot of trouble and disrespect if you had simply asked earlier.
I don't recall you posting a single Bible verse in this topic, let alone on the subject of love. If your definition from pages ago (paraphrased, 'wanting good for the object loved') is what you mean by it, then I don't mean anything different.
If, however, you are referring to some phantom post that I have not seen, then: God's love is capacious, it is all-encompassing, it is here and there, it is the basis for the relationship of the Trinity, it is the most fundamental connection God has to me, and it is what I desire most in my connection to him. It is unconditional, it is unchanging, it is overpowering, it is subservient, it is kind, it is sustaining. It is creative, it is substantial, it is patient.
Christians are always willing to say that the love of God is beyond their imagination, until someone takes it a bit too far, and they essentially say, 'Whoa, God isn't THAT loving. Back up, back up.'
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
"And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where
their worm [SIZE=-1](conscience) dies not, and the fire is not quenched." [/SIZE]
"The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
"So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
I agree with this post.Nobody knows the fullness of all God's attributes,
but He certainly won't be giving us false information
in what limited knowledge we do have.
Again Tissue, tell us how loving you think it would be
if YOU had the power to stop a child from being raped
and murdered, but you didn't stop it.
God has proven that He allows horrible things to happen
that you otherwise wouldn't let happen in your ideal of
"Love".
So clearly, God has a higher purpose and depth to His
love than you or I do.
We can know what God's love is by what we are given
to know and by what we see and experience too,
but we won't know the full extent of it in this lifetime