The Apparent Contradiction Between a Loving God and Eternal Punishment

Nadiine · Aug 2, 2009

visionary said:
Once you realise that this loving God is a consuming fire, and that you can walk in the midst of fire with him.. it is reconciled.

?
I'd like to see some scripture on that unless I'm not getting
the significance of your full meaning.

We are at peace with God when our sin is covered by His
blood - and we are then found righteous in His sight becuz
of the Son's payment in our place.
Not until.

In order for US to "reconcile" to God, we MUST admit our
sin guilt and debt and repent. THEN we can reconcile when
WE lay down our rebellion against Him.

visionary · Aug 2, 2009

Exodus 24:17
To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Psalm 18:8
Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.

Isaiah 30:27
See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.

Isaiah 30:30
The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning? 15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-"

Joel 2:5
With a noise like that of chariots they leap over the mountaintops, like a crackling fire consuming stubble, like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

A New Dawn said:
Actually, it is clear from the events of the Bible, from the very beginning, that God doesn't just run on love. From the beginning, when Adam and Eve sinned and were cast from God's presence, we can see that God's attributes of Holy, Righteous and Immutable were there to see that what He decreed would be done, rather than letting Adam and Eve slip by, not receiving that judgment. Had love been the only attribute worth weighing anything on, I'm sure God would have just forgiven and forgot.

Adam and Eve did not have Jesus. His love did not have a way to reconcile them.

You say 'God doesn't just run on love'. You then display the attributes of 'holy, righteous, immutable'. Let us draw a distinction here, however. To say that God doesn't just run on love is to make the argument that the instigation of action, the 'passion(s)' that drive(s) the actualization of his will, is not solely love, but other things as well. Immutability does not drive his actions in the same way that love does. Immutability is His status. Same with holiness and righteousness.

Love, however, is not merely a status, but something that morphs directly into reactionary action. To say that God is Love is a different sort of statement than to say that God is Holy.

That said, there are other attributes that drive his action, such as God is Just. However, in the light of Jesus' sacrifice, I have never understood the emphasis of Christians upon God's justice, for it appears that, the moment individuals exercise their free will, God's justice morphs into mercy. But that's a bit strange to say, isn't it?

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

DArceri said:
What I see is that you have a very low opinion of who God is. You are putting God in your own little box based on your humanistic understanding of who God is. As long as you bring God down to your level, you will never understand who the true God of the bible is.

You cannot understand God outside of yourself. You are thinking with a brain. Your brain is the only way in which you can think. Your image of God that you carry in your mind and employ whenever you read Scripture exists entirely in your brain.

If your ideal is to experience God without employing your brain, then you are grasping for an impossibility.

[quoteGod is not our equal. He is ontological 'other'. He is beyond creation and thus beyond human understanding. It takes divine assistance to even get a glimpse of who He is. God is slandered EVERY time we have a sinful thought. If He demands justice, then justice it is. If He gives grace, then grace it is. If He loves some and not all, then some it is. The glory of the grace of God comes in when He extends one second of breath into our life.[/quote]

Ok. Let's play this game.

God is noumenal (that is, he is beyond our capacity to experience). God projects himself through revelation in tiny ways so that we can grasp him. Every way that God has projected himself to me implies unconditional, all-encompassing love. The idea that he loves some but not all is entirely foreign to everything I know, worship, and love about God.

Now that being said, you need to fear God and His righteousness, and submit to His authority as God of all creation. If you continue to believe He 'owes' you something, you are literally playing with fire. Thank Him for even granting you another breath. Thank Him for sending HIS SON into this world to bridge the eternal gap between Him and us. He didn't have to do that. That is the love you seem to forget about. So if the Holy Spirit came into your life, get on your knees and thank God he sent His peace and love into your life. And if anyone asks you why you were granted God's love and not wrath, you tell them with a humble voice, because He chose to first love me. And then you praise Him for it!..... Sorry to be so blunt, but this false perception that God owes everybody His love just drives me nuts.

Isn't God responsible for us, in a way? Doesn't he owe us? He made us, knowing that we would fall. Isn't it his obligation to make sure everything works out?

Nadiine · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
You say 'God doesn't just run on love'. You then display the attributes of 'holy, righteous, immutable'. Let us draw a distinction here, however. To say that God doesn't just run on love is to make the argument that the instigation of action, the 'passion(s)' that drive(s) the actualization of his will, is not solely love, but other things as well. Immutability does not drive his actions in the same way that love does. Immutability is His status. Same with holiness and righteousness.

No, it just means that His Love isn't driven like YOURS IS
becuz you do not possess God's other attributes. Therefore,
your view of love is corrupted and God's is not becuz He
doesn't lack what you do as a created, fallen human.

That said, there are other attributes that drive his action, such as God is Just. However, in the light of Jesus' sacrifice, I have never understood the emphasis of Christians upon God's justice, for it appears that, the moment individuals exercise their free will, God's justice morphs into mercy. But that's a bit strange to say, isn't it?

Strange? no, I'd say incorrect.
God does not show mercy to all, I've proven that using several
scriptures that directly say that.

A New Dawn · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
Adam and Eve did not have Jesus. His love did not have a way to reconcile them.

Adam and Eve didn't need Jesus before the fall. They walked and talked with God in the flesh (so to speak).

You say 'God doesn't just run on love'. You then display the attributes of 'holy, righteous, immutable'. Let us draw a distinction here, however. To say that God doesn't just run on love is to make the argument that the instigation of action, the 'passion(s)' that drive(s) the actualization of his will, is not solely love, but other things as well. Immutability does not drive his actions in the same way that love does. Immutability is His status. Same with holiness and righteousness.

Love, however, is not merely a status, but something that morphs directly into reactionary action. To say that God is Love is a different sort of statement than to say that God is Holy.

All of God's attributes drive His will. How can you state otherwise? Can you provide even one reference that shows otherwise? God cannot look at sin with the least degree of allowance because of his holiness and righteousness. That is exactly why there is an eternal punishment for those who have not been covered in the blood of Jesus.

You are picking and choosing attributes you want to believe in. You can try to do that all you want, but it doesn't change God's true nature. The one spelled out for us all through the Bible.

That said, there are other attributes that drive his action, such as God is Just. However, in the light of Jesus' sacrifice, I have never understood the emphasis of Christians upon God's justice, for it appears that, the moment individuals exercise their free will, God's justice morphs into mercy. But that's a bit strange to say, isn't it?

The scriptures are full of the admonition that only those who believe in Christ and accept Him as their savior are covered under the atonement. Salvation is by faith. If you do not believe and have faith, you are not saved.

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

A New Dawn said:
Adam and Eve didn't need Jesus before the fall. They walked and talked with God in the flesh (so to speak).

Given infinite time, then anything that is possible will occur. The Fall was possible. Thus, it did, of necessity, occur. Chronologically, at that moment, no. Adam and Eve did not need Jesus. But in the sense that the Fall was necessary (that is, necessary insofar as it was possible, and infinite time was given), they needed Jesus from the moment they were created. The world in which they were born into was a world that would need Jesus of necessity, just as the Fall happened of necessity.

All

Click to expand...

of God's attributes drive His will. How can you state otherwise? Can you provide even one reference that shows otherwise? God cannot look at sin with the least degree of allowance because of his holiness and righteousness. That is exactly why there is an eternal punishment for those who have not been covered in the blood of Jesus.

I can state otherwise very easily: it is based upon definitions.

Passions drive my action. One of these passions is hunger. If I am hungry (that is, if I am driven by my passion of hunger), then I act accordingly. Now, my passions are contained wholly within my brain. However, my status of 'having a brain' does not drive my action. To be sure, my status of 'having a brain' is absolutely necessary to have the passion of hunger, but my status of 'having a brain' is only a status. Not a passion.

Some of God's attributes are statuses. Some of them are passions. Love is a passion.

It is terribly difficult, however, to determine which are passions and which are statuses, and there are, perhaps, some that qualify under both categories.

You are picking and choosing attributes to create the God you want to believe in. You can try to do that all you want, but it doesn't change God's true nature. The one spelled out for us all through the Bible.

I am doing no such thing. God is not built from Legos.

The scriptures are full of the admonition that only those who believe in Christ and accept Him as their savior are covered under the atonement. Salvation is by faith. If you do not believe and have faith, you are not saved.

How is this relevant?

A New Dawn · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
How is this relevant?

It is relevant because nothing works in a vacuum. God makes it clear whom He will save. You can't change what salvation is and who gets saved because you think that what is stated in the Bible makes God less loving.

You are trying to create a God in your image (your fallen image) by trying to make Him conform to your definition of what love is, instead of what His definition of what love is. We all do this. None of us know God, we can only use the scriptures to guide us, but often we forget that God is so much more than us that we substitute what we believe things like love and justice is. We often need the reminder that our thoughts, emotions, ideas, etc. are fallen so we understand that we can't really define God according to our definitions when He is so much more.

archierieus · Aug 2, 2009

A New Dawn said:
The scriptures are full of the admonition that only those who believe in Christ and accept Him as their savior are covered under the atonement. Salvation is by faith. If you do not believe and have faith, you are not saved.

"Atonement" can be a confusing and misunderstood concept. Christ's death on the cross was on behalf of everyone who has ever lived, and His death paid the price for all the sins of the world. However, not everyone is saved. Reconciliation of the world to God and an atonement for sins of the individual are two separate concepts. A good summary verse is Jn. 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Dave

archierieus · Aug 2, 2009

Commenting on the topic of this thread, the Bible teaches that God loves everyone and wants to save everyone, but that not all are willing to accept His salvation. Those who are so unwilling, will indeed suffer eternal punishment, which is stated very clearly in Scripture. Look at Malachi 4, for example. They shall consumed by fire, they shall be burned up, and they shall be no more. Revelation uses the term 'devoured,' Gr. 'eaten up.' At the end, they shall be ashes. Their eternal punishment is eternal death.

Dave

DArceri · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
You cannot understand God outside of yourself. You are thinking with a brain. Your brain is the only way in which you can think. Your image of God that you carry in your mind and employ whenever you read Scripture exists entirely in your brain.

If Jesus states, those who are not born again cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, what does that mean to you? Does this not suggest divine assistance is needed to see through the darkness and get a glimpse of who he is (His divine nature and essence)? This is why just surface reading of the bible is not going to be that beneficial to anyone. The Holy Spirit is needed to understand God's word.

Let me ask you something, why did Jesus choose to speak in parables to His disciples? Why is He coming back as a WARRIOR at His second coming? NOW...If you have an ear to hear, read the parable of the Tenants (Mk 12: 1-12) and tell me what verse 9 means to you!

Isn't God responsible for us, in a way? Doesn't he owe us? He made us, knowing that we would fall. Isn't it his obligation to make sure everything works out?

With that kind of argument then God owes ALL the fallen angels grace too, inclduing Satan himself. If you don't have a problem with Satan being caste out, why do you have a problem with all of Satan's children being caste out. Here is Jesus statement to the Pharisees, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

.

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

A New Dawn said:
It is relevant because nothing works in a vacuum. God makes it clear whom He will save. You can't change what salvation is and who gets saved because you think that what is stated in the Bible makes God less loving.

This is quite ridiculous; as if I, through my reasoning, am attempting to affect the reality of God. Far from it. I'm attempting to properly discover who God really is.

I am not a moron, Dawn.

You are trying to create a God in your image (your fallen image) by trying to make Him conform to your definition of what love is, instead of what His definition of what love is.

Yeah? While you're at the psychoanalysis, I dreamt last night that I stood for three hours naked in front of a locked door with the word 'synergy' printed along the side. Mind explaining what that means?

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

DArceri said:
If Jesus states, those who are not born again cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, what does that mean to you? Does this not suggest divine assistance is needed to see through the darkness and get a glimpse of who he is (His divine nature and essence)? This is why just surface reading of the bible is not going to be that beneficial to anyone. The Holy Spirit is needed to understand God's word.

I don't think that verse has anything to do with God as noumena.

Let me ask you something, why did Jesus choose to speak in parables to His disciples? Why is He coming back as a WARRIOR at His second coming? NOW...If you have an ear to hear, read the parable of the Tenants (Mk 12: 1-12) and tell me what verse 9 means to you!

That some will be judged, and some will go to hell. I get it. I'm not arguing with that.

Just, hell can't be eternal.

With that kind of argument then God owes ALL the fallen angels grace too, inclduing Satan himself.

If you don't have a problem with Satan being caste out, why do you have a problem with all of Satan's children being caste out. Here is Jesus statement to the Pharisees, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Who said I don't have a problem with Satan being cast out?

That said, I don't personally think Satan is a real figure. Rather, I think 'Satan' refers to a particular tendency in all human beings.

A New Dawn · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
This is quite ridiculous; as if I, through my reasoning, am attempting to affect the reality of God. Far from it. I'm attempting to properly discover who God really is.

I am not a moron, Dawn.

Yeah? While you're at the psychoanalysis, I dreamt last night that I stood for three hours naked in front of a locked door with the word 'synergy' printed along the side. Mind explaining what that means?

I don't recall every saying you were a moron, or attempting to psychoanalize you. You asked why what I said was relevant, and I answered with why I believed it was relevant and what I saw that made me believe it was relevant.

I've discovered that the best way to attempt to discover who God is is to read the Bible with an open mind rather than with pre-conceived ideas.

Nadiine · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
This is quite ridiculous; as if I, through my reasoning, am attempting to affect the reality of God. Far from it. I'm attempting to properly discover who God really is.

I am not a moron, Dawn.

Yeah? While you're at the psychoanalysis, I dreamt last night that I stood for three hours naked in front of a locked door with the word 'synergy' printed along the side. Mind explaining what that means?

Her post to you was perfectly acceptable in explaining
where the flaws are in the source of the analysis' being
made and projected onto God.

She never called you a moron and I think your post is
overkill compared to what she shared w/ you.

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

A New Dawn said:
I've discovered that the best way to attempt to discover who God is is to read the Bible with an open mind rather than with pre-conceived ideas.

A cursory study of the history of philosophy (I know, I know, a bit unexpected, as this thread is no longer in CP&E) shows that, though many thought so in history, it is impossible to understand anything except with pre-conceived ideas.

A New Dawn · Aug 2, 2009

Tissue said:
A cursory study of the history of philosophy (I know, I know, a bit unexpected, as this thread is no longer in CP&E) shows that, though many thought so in history, it is impossible to understand anything except with pre-conceived ideas.

There is a difference between reading things (the Bible, in this instance) with the rose-colored spectacles of our experiences, culture and environment, and reading it with the intention of wanting to find something specific in it. Because we can always overcome the first, and usually find what we want with the second. If we read it without wanting to find things that support our POV, then we are open to everything it says, not just part of what it says.

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

A New Dawn said:
There is a difference between reading things (the Bible, in this instance) with the rose-colored spectacles of our experiences, culture and environment, and reading it with the intention of wanting to find something specific in it. Because we can always overcome the first, and usually find what we want with the second. If we read it without wanting to find things that support our POV, then we are open to everything it says, not just part of what it says.

And here is where the psychoanalysis comes in. You're accusing me if reading the Bible and digging out only what I want.

I am open to Scripture. I am open to discovering TRUTH. I am looking for truth. Why would I try to construct an illusion for myself? I am not like the deluded, who think that they decide what is real and what is not. I am no solipsist.

There is an accusation in your post, well hidden behind conjunctions and thin etiquette, but it is there nevertheless. I am no solipsist. Your psychoanalysis is incorrect. I am looking for something. What you have found, I cannot affirm; it is revolting, it is hateful, it is not loving. I can no more call it 'loving' than I can call water 'dry'.

Be respectful.

Nadiine · Aug 2, 2009

but your "truth" comes to the exclusion of OTHER TRUTH'S
plainly taught.

Tissue · Aug 2, 2009

Nadiine said:
Her post to you was perfectly acceptable in explaining where the flaws are in the source of the analysis' being
made and projected onto God.

She never called you a moron and I think your post is
overkill compared to what she shared w/ you.

Let us suppose you are looking for truth. It is somewhat hard to find, and hard to identify when it is found. It is, in fact, a life goal, insofar as lifetimes are spent looking for it.

Now let's suppose someone, who knows nothing about you, tells you that you're not really looking for truth, you're just looking for what you want to be true.

That is the source of my frustration.

The Apparent Contradiction Between a Loving God and Eternal Punishment

Well-Known Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is bigger than the boogeyman!

Well-Known Member

God is bigger than the boogeyman!

Craftsman

Craftsman

Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is bigger than the boogeyman!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is bigger than the boogeyman!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads