Jewishness of Ancient Church Tradition

ZahavaP said:

On the contrary, my friend. Yom Kippur is a very emotional day. And one does NOT think of ways to escape. One prays that his sins will be atoned. Do you speak from experience? Have you attended an Orthodox Yom Kippur? A nonJew is not required to understand Yom Kippur - so why would one attend?

Leviticus 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement; it shall be a holy gathering to you; and you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. [28] And you shall do no work in that same day; for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your G-d.

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I completely agree. I love the Yom Kippur services especially. Very enriching. Back before I became a frummie I would go out of my way to Doven at an Orthodox Shul for the High Holidays. I've been to both Reform and Orthodox services and personally do not find the reform services fulfilling.

Anyways, Gut Shabbos everyone.

Yochi

ContraMundum said:

If the Reform were boring for teenagers.....well.....you don't know boring until you've been to an Orthodox Yom Kippur. Half way through you start thinking of ways to make an escape.

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Contra my friend. Just because this was your experience does not mean it is universal. I for one am usually sad that the sun has gone down so quickly and wish it would stay awhile. Back when I was still able to fast completely (health is too bad now) my stomach rarely agreed with my heart and neshama.

Yom Kippur is the most sacred 25 hours out of the whole year. For many of us our emotional experience is not boredom but deep love, empathy, and spiritual awareness.

Three years ago I was dovening at the chabad house for the holiday and was literally moved to tears by the whole experience. Ultimately its what moved me from being a fairly observant reconstructionist to a full blown chasid.

I could speak for hours about the immense beuty of that experience, but that is not the topic of conversation for this thread and the sun won't wait. Have a good shabbas.

Yochi

ContraMundum said:

Yes. Boredom is an emotion.

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How sad for you, bored in the presence of the Almighty Lover of your soul.

Oh yes, one does. Doors become attractive, daydreaming takes over and before long you are mentally playing in the NFL and winning the Super Bowl with a gallant touchdown acheived with Herculean effort and individual brilliance.

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Again, how sad for you, looking to escape the presence of the Almighty Lover of your soul.

How we cling to G-d. Never is the weighty presence of G-d so real, so accessible, and how worthwhile to stand in His Presence and realize that one lives or dies, every day, at His behest. How beautiful to know He forgives, and He gives and intends for us, Life. How priceless to know that every day He longs to be the most important thing in our lives. Hey, even more important than <gasp> fooooootbull.

I'm really sorry that you have such an unbalanced view of seeking the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. How tragic for your soul.

Torah613 said:

Contra my friend. Just because this was your experience does not mean it is universal. I for one am usually sad that the sun has gone down so quickly and wish it would stay awhile. Back when I was still able to fast completely (health is too bad now) my stomach rarely agreed with my heart and neshama.

Yom Kippur is the most sacred 25 hours out of the whole year. For many of us our emotional experience is not boredom but deep love, empathy, and spiritual awareness.

Three years ago I was dovening at the chabad house for the holiday and was literally moved to tears by the whole experience. Ultimately its what moved me from being a fairly observant reconstructionist to a full blown chasid.

I could speak for hours about the immense beuty of that experience, but that is not the topic of conversation for this thread and the sun won't wait. Have a good shabbas.

Yochi

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OK. Our experience is different- I accept that. I always have.

ShirChadash said:

How sad for you, bored in the presence of the Almighty Lover of your soul.

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I don't think He was there. No shekinah. I see that in Church though.

Again, how sad for you, looking to escape the presence of the Almighty Lover of your soul.

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As above.

How we cling to G-d. Never is the weighty presence of G-d so real, so accessible, and how worthwhile to stand in His Presence and realize that one lives or dies, every day, at His behest. How beautiful to know He forgives, and He gives and intends for us, Life. How priceless to know that every day He longs to be the most important thing in our lives.

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Yes...and this also happens at Church.

Hey, even more important than <gasp> fooooootbull.

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Yeah.

I'm really sorry that you have such an unbalanced view of seeking the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. How tragic for your soul.

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Please don't come here to preach or put me down.

Now that the thread has been violated and derailed by people from a different religion....it's time to claim it back.

One thing I was noticing- there are themes of all the sacraments found in the Tanach. Each one is foreshadowed among the Jewish people.

Baptism- a practice of initiation found in the Jewish nation, foreshadowed in the prophets with washing for cleansing etc, and applicable to all age groups.

Holy Communion- foreshawdowed in Melchizedek, practiced fully in the Temple by the priests and in seen in both kiddush and the Pesach seder.

Confirmation- chrismation (annointing) of Kings etc.

Holy Orders- initation rites of priests etc.

Marriage- obvious.

Unction- obvious

Confession and Absolution- found all over the Torah in the sacrificial laws.

The Messiah fully revealed the purpose of these and showed them to be effectual as they were since the beginning.

The early Christians practiced all of them and considered them holy sacraments of the New Covenant. It's a shame to see so many newer denominations rejecting them as mere symbols and not God's true appointed means of grace.

Ivy said:

At the front of the church, they keep a lamp burning constantly, which I think corresponds to the Temple. I'm having a senile moment with my Hebrew, but I think it was called the Ner Tamid?

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More about this:







I like the way that a traditional church layout is based on the Mishkan or the Beit HaMikdash.

The whole layout of a church is not only a picture of the Christian life but also has direct correspondence with the Mishkan/Beit HaMikdash.

The altars are in the same position. The Word of God (the light to our path) is read and preached from the same side of the building as the Menorah was, the bread and wine offered for communion come to the altar fromt he same side as the table of shewbread, and the altar is in the same place as it was in the mishkan. Incense is offered from the place where the altar of incense was as well.

Outside there was a laver to wash before coming in- likewise to enter the church one must be baptised (see Titus 3:5 for a laver in reference to baptism: Gk "loutron" and Heb "Mikveh") and there is always a small bowl of holy water at the entrance of a church to correspond further with this and remind us of the Mishkan and our baptisms.

There's plenty more, but that will do for today.

ShirChadash said:

How sad for you, bored in the presence of the Almighty Lover of your soul.

Again, how sad for you, looking to escape the presence of the Almighty Lover of your soul.

How we cling to G-d. Never is the weighty presence of G-d so real, so accessible, and how worthwhile to stand in His Presence and realize that one lives or dies, every day, at His behest. How beautiful to know He forgives, and He gives and intends for us, Life. How priceless to know that every day He longs to be the most important thing in our lives. Hey, even more important than <gasp> fooooootbull.

I'm really sorry that you have such an unbalanced view of seeking the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. How tragic for your soul.

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Shir:

I am not going to agree with you on this. Nor am I going to disagree with you on this.

Neither you nor me sit on a Beis Din and thus have no authority to act as judge.

I am reminded of a story I once heard about the late Lubavitcher Rebbe. A man runs into shul on Yom Kippur for the Yiskor service with crumbs of danish in his beard and after ten minutes ran out the door obviously heading to work. One loyal chasid later went up to the rabbi and reported the sacrilage. The Rebbe replied "ah, but how precious are those ten minutes in the sight of HaShem."

We do not know the experiences of contra's life. And B"H for it--I have enough troubles of my own. Even if we did know, this is not the time or the place.

Shalom,
Yochi

Torah613 said:

Shir:

I am not going to agree with you on this. Nor am I going to disagree with you on this.

Neither you nor me sit on a Beis Din and thus have no authority to act as judge.

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Ehn. My experience is and has always been that we get OUT of any observance what we put into it. I knew it while a Catholic, I knew it while a protestant, and I know it now.

I am well aware of the practice of the presence of G-d, which concept is likely well-known to Contra. The funny thing is, I do not generally say G-d was not present in the Catholic church, or that I did not meet Him in the protestant churches I attended. I met Him where I sought Him, which was in all of them... and I meet Him in synagogue as well. If Contra didn't meet G-d in Yom Kippur service, I am decently comfortable saying that is his own fault/failing, not G-d's and certainly not the fault of Judaism or of Jewish practice. Granted, it may have been due to immaturity, or youth, misunderstanding or willfulness, lack of interest perhaps. Whatever, it is not due to G-d's presence lacking in Judaism, that I am certain of.

I am comfortable saying I see him having an unbalanced view. I am quite sure he would say the same of me, and frankly much worse (as he has done so in the past ). At any rate, I do feel pity and sadness for any Jew who will not see and experience the G-d Who loves us -- wherever He is present -- but rather than realize it is we who fail in that area, chooses to simply accuse Him of being absent. <~~~ that, I feel, is dangerous to one's soul. Just my opinion, I don't think I need to be on a beit din to say so -- no judging, just bloviating. And don't I have enough troubles of my own as well -- far be it from me. But I can certainly say what i find sad, as the outcome, without knowing the cause behind it, or "judging".

ContraMundum said:

Please don't come here to preach or put me down.

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On the contrary, Contra. I was attempting to spur you to better understanding.

ShirChadash said:

Whatever, it is not due to G-d's presence lacking in Judaism, that I am certain of.

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I've never said God was not in Judaism- quite the opposite.

I am comfortable saying I see him having an unbalanced view. I am quite sure he would say the same of me, and frankly much worse (as he has done so in the past ).

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I'm dreadfully sorry if I have offended you in the past. The point is that we both are supposed to be beyond that, and this forum is a chance for us to show more respect. It's not always easy, but it should be a goal we should attain to.

Can we have our thread back now?

ShirChadash said:

Contra, if in the name of such respect, you could find it within yourself to stop slamming Judaism, and making it out to be lacking at every. single. opportunity you see, then I would say the door to replies to you that you feel are "taking the thread over", would not be a door that is opened.

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I don't think you are being fair. Your comments are highly inaccurate and I don't think your judgement is correct. You are out of touch with my positions and my postings. You're labelling me as you want to see me.

This thread is about Christianity. Can we have our thread back please?

Ivy said:

I had been going to ask about infant baptism, which is something I'm just becoming familiar with.

Is there something corresponding in Jewish tradition? I'm thinking there must be, but my brain is foggy at the moment.

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Circumcision- and the baptism of proselytes and their whole household. We see witness of that in the NT.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power,
11 in whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

And:

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia heard us, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God; whose heart the Lord opened, so that she attended to the things which were spoken by Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, she and her household, she begged us, saying, If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay. And she constrained us.

Act 16:30 And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household.
32 And they spoke the Word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his household.
33 And taking them in that hour of the night, he washed from their stripes. And he was baptized, he and all his, immediately.


The Greek word translated household is "oikos" and means basically everybody in the house, including infants and so forth. Just as a convert to Judaism's children were also baptised with him and circumcised, so it is with the Church. The initiatory sign and seal, as well as the sign of the Covenant is baptism.

Hi everyone,
This discussion has come to a close, but for anyone interested I didn't see mentioned in what I read, the similarity in the liturgical prayers.
Just thought I'd add what I discovered in that regard while seeking to adapt some of the Jewish prayers to a new covenant reality, I thought I'd go to the Anglican/Church of England prayer Book as I remembered that there seemed to be some similarities

To my delight what I found was some of the prayers were identical almost word for word to the Jewish liturgy and in places where the Jewish prayers lacked the testimony of the reality of His indwelling Spirit, the Anglican Prayers incorporated this.

As we know the Anglican church was one of the first churches to come out of the Catholic tradition, so I presumed that the Catholic also had retained the Jewish liturgy.

It is my understanding that the Church of the East, the orthodox Nestorian church claims that their liturgy has been retained as given from the apostles and it is very similar to what I found with the Anglican Prayer Book.

It follows the Jewish liturgy, incorporating new covenant realities and expressions into the prayers also. Up until the beginning of this century, they also kept all the traditions of the early church, including Shabbat.

zionschild said:

Hi everyone,
This discussion has come to a close, but for anyone interested I didn't see mentioned in what I read, the similarity in the liturgical prayers.
Just thought I'd add what I discovered in that regard while seeking to adapt some of the Jewish prayers to a new covenant reality, I thought I'd go to the Anglican/Church of England prayer Book as I remembered that there seemed to be some similarities

To my delight what I found was some of the prayers were identical almost word for word to the Jewish liturgy and in places where the Jewish prayers lacked the testimony of the reality of His indwelling Spirit, the Anglican Prayers incorporated this.

As we know the Anglican church was one of the first churches to come out of the Catholic tradition, so I presumed that the Catholic also had retained the Jewish liturgy.

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Amen.

It is my understanding that the Church of the East, the orthodox Nestorian church claims that their liturgy has been retained as given from the apostles and it is very similar to what I found with the Anglican Prayer Book.

It follows the Jewish liturgy, incorporating new covenant realities and expressions into the prayers also. Up until the beginning of this century, they also kept all the traditions of the early church, including Shabbat.

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Thanks for that. I am sure we would all agree with your observation on this. In fact, it's so obvious that I am surprised that we didn't mention it.

There's a number of very interesting books on this topic.....and we've put them somewhere on this forum....just can't remember where.

SGM4HIM said:

I found an interesting article called the "Jewishness of the Nicene Creed" It was found in Christianity Today. It mentions Oscar Skarsaune and his book In the Shadow of the Temple.
The Jewishness of the Nicene Creed | Christian History

His name and book "Jewish Believes in Jesus" pops up again in a Ben Witherington book review of "Pagan Christianity" Ben Witherington: PAGAN CHRISTIANTY: by George Barna and Frank Viola

Here's a quote from the article,
"These folks need to read a book like Oscar Skarsaune’s edited volume on Jewish Believers in Jesus. They will discover it is not possible to say either that Jewish Christianity waned after 70 A.D. nor is it possible to say that the dominate practice of the church was pagan, and became increasingly pagan in the first, second, third centuries--- wrong, and wrong."

Wow! If you are tired of hearing about all the negativity about "the Church" Witherington really socks it to them. It's refreshing to hear some balance.

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Thanks for making the information available that you did, as it is very on point/fascinating (IMHO). Oscar Skarsaune is truly a huge blessing to Jewish believers, as his books have always been very intricate and I enjoy the way he articulates his views and simply gives the facts