Culpability

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ToddNotTodd

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If I let a rabid dog into a class of schoolchildren and the dog attacks the children, am I responsible for what happens to the children?

I mean... i didn't maul the children. The dog might not have attacked the children. I didn't force the dog to attack the children...

What's your thoughts?
 

Jade Margery

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Heck, in some states, if you own a dog and keep it in a fenced yard, and a child climbs the fence to get to the dog and subsequently gets bit, you can be considered culpable.

Which sounds silly to me. Folks got no sense o' personal responsibility anymore, it seems.

Meh, like we ever did.

Don't keep us all in suspense though, Todd. What's the parallel argument? ;)
 
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KCKID

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Which sounds silly to me. Folks got no sense o' personal responsibility anymore, it seems.

Meh, like we ever did.

Don't keep us all in suspense though, Todd. What's the parallel argument? ;)

Um, at a guess I would say that the parallel argument involves 'the gay lifestyle' (i.e. the rabid dog that might bite a child analogy) being taught in schools.

Do I get a cigar?
 
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MoonLancer

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Ofcouse. when one causes a chain of events to occur knowings its outcome, the outcome rests on the cause of those chain of events

if god did not know that by creating humans the way he did would end up causing first sin, and assuming mankind had free will and assuming god was honest about the effects of the fruit and using his powers to stop them and had a legitimate reason for planting the fruit, then i would blame mankind

but when god plants the fruit tree, knows the consequences of doing so, creating humans as he did, warning them the consequences were death when they did not know what death was, the blame is gods.

As written in the bible, the blame of the fall and first sin is gods.

I assume Todd that your post had something to do with this? or am i off base?
 
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Verv

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I was thinking it was more along the lines of

The OP = God
The dog = The serpent
Children = Adam and Eve
Class = Eden

But we do not get mauled every day of our lives... And we survive and have an option for ascendance into a higher state of being...

And life is really good...

Sure, we committed a sin and were cut off from paradise but being cut off from paradise and put into a place that is rather neutral like ours is not tantamount to being mauled by a rabid dog.
 
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Jade Margery

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levi501

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Our sin is god's fault so how can he set it in motion and then punish us for what he determined would happen. A fair and loving god wouldn't and is thus incompatible with the idea of hell. Also, what does it say about this being that would create an environment in which there's a lot of pain when he has the power to alleviate it.

And in other news fundimentalists thinking is incompatible with critical thinking, logic and science.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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But we do not get mauled every day of our lives... And we survive and have an option for ascendance into a higher state of being...

You're right we don't get mauled every day of our lives. Some children are slowly starving to death, or dying quickly from ebola.

And life is really good...

Tell that to the children starving or dying from ebola...

Sure, we committed a sin and were cut off from paradise but being cut off from paradise and put into a place that is rather neutral like ours is not tantamount to being mauled by a rabid dog.

A. We did not commit a sin in the garden. We were not alive then. Hence, We have no culpability. Punishing us for what a supposed ancestor did makes as much sense as letting the father of a rape victim rape the rapist's daughter. Although I guess that fits the "eye for an eye" bill...

B. I can think of a world that's better than "neutral".

I suppose my question is this. How do Christians logically absolve God from any responsibility? Isn't there something, anything that nags at you about that?
 
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lawtonfogle

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I was thinking it was more along the lines of

The OP = God
The dog = The serpent
Children = Adam and Eve
Class = Eden

Nah... couldn't be. The OP says he wasn't sure if the dog would attack, God is supposed to know...

Unless that just adds more weight to the culpability argument.
 
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lawtonfogle

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The idea I don't like about the whole deal is that if you sin you deserve death, but not just that, but to die again and again. If a sinner deserves the worse possible thing, and everyone is a sinner, then every child who was raped deserved to be raped, again and again. Just reflect upon that for a minute. Think of all the horror of a young child being raped, by her father, by her teacher, by a stranger. Yes, she deserved that, no? One true story I read of a serial killer said he would blend up some of his victims in front of others, and leave it as their only food source. Of course, both parties deserved that, right?


Of course, I don't think most Christians believe this. They see a child, or anyone (except a child rapist) get raped, and they say they did not deserve that. Yet, by their own theology, they did. This is one of the big problems I struggle with, along side abortion. Either abortion sends children to hell, or to heaven. If it sends them to hell, what does this say about God. If it sends them to heaven, then why should I not forcefully abort every child I can? Even if in doing so I sin, how can I justify not sinning for the sake of sending others to heaven. That is the very act of sacrifice which happened upon the cross, where Jesus took on sin for a chance to send others to heaven. There is a possible third choice, that there is no soul till later, maybe once they become sentient, maybe once they are born, maybe once they actually gain some logic... but if that is the case, then they are just a clump of cells up to what ever point that is, and abortion is not even a moral question anymore.

Assume for a second hell exist, and is some big bad terrible place. What action could we justify which would send someone there? The only thing I can think of is avoiding sending someone else there, but in any other choice, where option A is someone goes to hell, and option B is they don't, then no matter how bad option B is, it is the option one should choose.

For some reason, I don't think many Christians actually think about such things.
 
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Penumbra

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If I let a rabid dog into a class of schoolchildren and the dog attacks the children, am I responsible for what happens to the children?

I mean... i didn't maul the children. The dog might not have attacked the children. I didn't force the dog to attack the children...

What's your thoughts?
Yes, he is responsible, because he made poor decisions that harmed people.

Some things can happen mostly beyond a person's control, and they shouldn't be responsible for that. (Like a bunch of children climbing over into a fenced yard and getting bit. Technically it's his dog but he didn't make a stupid decision; the kids did.) But if it's concluded that the harm was a direct result of a poor decision (negligence), then yes, I feel they are responsible.

-Lyn
 
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Penumbra

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Then you left out a few characters then
Yeah, Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna, and Siddhartha Gautama.

Man lets dog into classroom and it mauls children.
-Another man comes in and says if you believe in him and do what he says, he'll make the pain go away, but for others, it will be worse.
-Another man comes in and says if you believe in him and do what he says, he'll make the pain go away, but for others, it will be worse.
-Another man comes in and says if you believe in him and do what he says, he'll make the pain go away, but for others, it will be worse.
-Another man comes in and says if you believe in him and do what he says, he'll make the pain go away, but for others, it will be worse.

Or, more accurately, their lawyers (religious followers) come in and say this, because the men themselves are not here. So each lawyer provides a written account to the student, that the lawyer insists was written by his client.

-Lyn
 
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ToddNotTodd

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"If I let a"

All I need to see.

If you read the rest of it you might have something to contribute. I'm trying to get the Christian perspective, but if you're unwilling to explain your religion, I understand. Not everyone is able to witness to other people.
 
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MethodMan

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If you read the rest of it you might have something to contribute. I'm trying to get the Christian perspective, but if you're unwilling to explain your religion, I understand. Not everyone is able to witness to other people.

Ahh - what's the matter? Hurts that someone did take the bait?

Ok - I'll nibble at it.

Look at your senerio one more time:

"If I let a rabid dog into a class of schoolchildren and the dog attacks the children, am I responsible for what happens to the children?"

Who actually let the rabid dog off its chain in the garden? What you can't seem to recognize is that the children did. He was all penned in. Could not do anything until they decided to let the mutt go.

But what did God do? He loved us anyway.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Ahh - what's the matter? Hurts that someone did take the bait?

Ok - I'll nibble at it.

Look at your senerio one more time:

"If I let a rabid dog into a class of schoolchildren and the dog attacks the children, am I responsible for what happens to the children?"

Who actually let the rabid dog off its chain in the garden? What you can't seem to recognize is that the children did. He was all penned in. Could not do anything until they decided to let the mutt go.

But what did God do? He loved us anyway.


My initial scenario really wasn't pertaining to the fall, but I'll adjust...

There's a room full of school children. I've placed in the room a rabid dog inside a cage. I've put the latch to the cage at a height easily accessible to the children and I've made the latch easy to open. I've also allowed an adult in the room with the children. The adult tells the children that, even though there's a sign saying not to let the dog out, the dog is nice and wants to play with them. And the dog is magic and will give them presents.

Now, am I culpable when they open the cage and get mauled? Even if I "love" them after?

Oh wait, I forgot something... In this scenario I'm psychic. And I know for sure that the adult in the room will be persuasive enough to get the children to open the cage.

I'm pretty sure any court in any country would convict me.
 
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