My Egyptian Challenge

Vermithrax

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Verm.... it was 603,550, not one more, nor less. i heard about that.

Actually that number comes from Numbers chapter 1. It is a census of the Hebrews 2 years after the Exodus. Only men over the age of 20 who were able to fight were counted. The total is 603,550.

Thus the total actual population was significantly higher, if the numbers are to be believed.

Of course ancient historical accounts tend to greatly conflate numbers. Herodotus reports that Xerxes' army consisted of over 5,000,000 personnel of all types when he arrived at Thermopylae. The requirements of supply, maneuverability, logistics, finance and command and control make it impossible. A more reasonable estimate is that the Persian army was comprised of 80,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry. Accounts of the campaign make it clear the incredible logistics necessary to support even that number, which was, by the standards of the time, a huge force.

If I were ever in the position to estimate how many people, total, might have been involved in a hypothetical Exodus, using the Bible as a source, I might agree that the Hebrews might have 6,000 men over the age of 20, for a total population of between 20 and 30,000. Speculation about moving that number of people around becomes much more interesting.
 
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Steezie

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Could we please leave the Bible out of this thread?
Why? This thread is a set-up.

You lay out impossible yet slightly biblical conditions, then when people say the conditions cant be met you come out with "Well GOD did it so that proves that God can make the impossible happen!"

If you wanna try and roll me, give it your best shot; but put your hands up when you get caught eh?
 
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Vermithrax

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Could we please leave the Bible out of this thread?

Your initial reference was the Bible, I was simply explaining where you got your number from, how it was determined, and the implications for the size of the total population.

Why not proceed to the next step?
 
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Kharak

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Belated reply, but the Dark Lord Sauron is patient . . .

The Egyptians had one of the premiere armies of the time period. They fought the Hittites to a draw. Malaria would not have been enough to keep the population in check.
They won because of DUMB LUCK. The battle of Qadesh was an enormous upset. Do remember that the Egyptian Empire was also the first recorded user of mercenaries, for the very reason that Egypt was never quite good at anything but the occasional raid on desert nomads. They had the very rugged mountains, impassable deserts, river cataracts and treacherous Nile delta to protect them from all but the most determined of invaders. It is no small wonder that Egypt ended self rule when the iron bearing and veteran cultures of Asia Minor and Greece came into play.

The Egyptian chariots were anything but cumbersome.. (the Hittite chariots could be described that way perhaps, but not the smaller, lighter Egyptian ones) they were an excellent mobile platform for archers and spearmen. Yes, by the time Alexander the Butcher came around, chariots were no longer the elite of the miltary, as calvary had replaced them. We are talking earlier than that, however.
Alexander the Great actually defeated chariots by letting them through his infantry at the Battle of Gaugamela; the phalangites simply impaling the poor horses as they passed through a gauntlet of very pointy sarissa afterwards. Chariots did not fufill the same role as Macedonian heavy and light cavalry, they simply could not do anything save for serve as skirmishers and the occasional weapon of terror.

Chariots were terrible fighting platforms at any level though. They were originally transports for self armed warriors before the creation of the marginally effective wheel mounted scythe (which, if I recall correctly, the Egyptians did not have). An archer on a chariot could not consistently hope to hit something unless loosing arrows in volley with his squadron, and most of those would not hit something anyway (whereas a horse mounted archer can fire between the parts when the horse's hooves touch the ground to retain some semblance of accuracy). Not withstanding, the Hittites were excellent charioteers, and had a long tradition of horsemanship that the Egyptians did not have. The Egyptians were in fact second generation charioteers. That did not stop Ramses from attempting to publish propaganda about the draw at Qadesh; which nearly ended in total disaster.

Furthermore, ancient chariots were poor at turning and were prone to cataclysmic crashes. Their tendency to wreck was precisely the reason why Greeks and Romans loved watching them race, and they enjoyed watching the other teams' riders fall to their certain death at tight corners or in collision with other chariots.
 
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Kharak

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Of course ancient historical accounts tend to greatly conflate numbers. Herodotus reports that Xerxes' army consisted of over 5,000,000 personnel of all types when he arrived at Thermopylae. The requirements of supply, maneuverability, logistics, finance and command and control make it impossible. A more reasonable estimate is that the Persian army was comprised of 80,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry. Accounts of the campaign make it clear the incredible logistics necessary to support even that number, which was, by the standards of the time, a huge force.
"The thousand nations of the Persian empire descend upon you! Our arrows, will blot out the sun!"
 
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Split Rock

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They won because of DUMB LUCK. The battle of Qadesh was an enormous upset.
True, one of Ramses' armies came into play at the right moment, and this was lucky. However, the lack of professionalism of the Hittite charioteers lost them what should have been a great victory.


Do remember that the Egyptian Empire was also the first recorded user of mercenaries, for the very reason that Egypt was never quite good at anything but the occasional raid on desert nomads. They had the very rugged mountains, impassable deserts, river cataracts and treacherous Nile delta to protect them from all but the most determined of invaders. It is no small wonder that Egypt ended self rule when the iron bearing and veteran cultures of Asia Minor and Greece came into play.
This is nonsense. Egypt ruled a colonial empire for centuries. History shows you are wrong.

Alexander the Great actually defeated chariots by letting them through his infantry at the Battle of Gaugamela; the phalangites simply impaling the poor horses as they passed through a gauntlet of very pointy sarissa afterwards. Chariots did not fufill the same role as Macedonian heavy and light cavalry, they simply could not do anything save for serve as skirmishers and the occasional weapon of terror.
Chariots were the elite of every major power during the time of Ramses. By the time of Alexander, they were an anachronism. Just as calvary were an anachronism by WWI.


Chariots were terrible fighting platforms at any level though. They were originally transports for self armed warriors before the creation of the marginally effective wheel mounted scythe (which, if I recall correctly, the Egyptians did not have). An archer on a chariot could not consistently hope to hit something unless loosing arrows in volley with his squadron, and most of those would not hit something anyway (whereas a horse mounted archer can fire between the parts when the horse's hooves touch the ground to retain some semblance of accuracy).
Also not true. On the History Channel, they showed how one can shoot accurately from a reproduction of an Egyptian chariot. History Channel aside, the simple fact that chariots were used by all the major military powers demonstrates their usefulness.


Not withstanding, the Hittites were excellent charioteers, and had a long tradition of horsemanship that the Egyptians did not have.
Now you are contradicting yourself. The Hittites were "excellent" at using a useless miltary device???

The Egyptians were in fact second generation charioteers.
True enough. That means little, however.

That did not stop Ramses from attempting to publish propaganda about the draw at Qadesh; which nearly ended in total disaster.
Of course he published propaganda.. he was a God and always won great victories. Fortunately, we have both Egyptian and Hittite accounts, including the treaty they both agreed to to end their dispute. Neither side would have signed such an agreement, unless they believed it was to their benefit. Thus, the Hittites were much more impressed with the Egyptians than you are. I will go with their appraisal.

Furthermore, ancient chariots were poor at turning and were prone to cataclysmic crashes. Their tendency to wreck was precisely the reason why Greeks and Romans loved watching them race, and they enjoyed watching the other teams' riders fall to their certain death at tight corners or in collision with other chariots.
Once again, the fact that chariots were valued so highly in warfare shows you are wrong.
 
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Freodin

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:wave:Setting the Bible aside, as AV1611VET, stipulated, the Exodus didn't happen.
And therefore, he will conclude, everyone who does not trust the Bible cannot be trusted when it comes to the veracity of Biblical accounts. I know the way he argues.
 
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How would you orchestrate getting 603,550 of your people, who are under the watchful eye of the most powerful nation on the face of the earth, out of the country?
This is a bit misleading.
A mob of 600 000 people are similarly capable today as they were 3-4k years ago. But even modern New Zealand could route ancient Egypt.

Likely, the slaves could just walk out of there, Egypt probably couldn't mobilise it's entire armed force fast enough to stop them nor afford to have their army chasing slaves around in the desert for months or years.
 
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AV1611VET

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And therefore, he will conclude, everyone who does not trust the Bible cannot be trusted when it comes to the veracity of Biblical accounts. I know the way he argues.
My bet is still on the "It really happened so if its impossible then God must've done it and God must exist!" reasoning.
Steezie for the win!
 
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ranmaonehalf

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I expect it.

My next challenge is going to be a tough one too.

(Explaining how they would get these guys into the Promised Land without divine intervention.)
whats even more impressive is the ability to not leave any evidence of existing or having anyone outside of one particular book comment on such ahuge deal.
 
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AV1611VET

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whats even more impressive is the ability to not leave any evidence of existing or having anyone outside of one particular book comment on such ahuge deal.
Keep looking.
 
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Alunyel

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Keep looking.

What, keep looking for this evidence as well as evidence for all of your other ridiculous claims?

NOTHING you say ever has any evidence to support it. Ziltch. Nothing. Nada. Not even the tiniest smidgen of a possibility of some evidence. Why should anyone waste their time looking for something you claim, when nothing else you've ever claimed has ever any evidence for it, either?

Not to mention all of the evidence we already have contradicts your baseless claims.

If you believe it's out there, you go find it.

We'll keep looking, but we'll keep looking for whatever we can find. Whatever we find, we find, and we'll draw our conclusions from it and so far absolutely nothing has led anyone capable of reasoned logic to conclude that anything you claim has ever had any validity.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nah, I'm good.
Lazy and misguided would probably be better words --- (not you, those who can look and don't).
Most of these myths were disproved by Christians who weely weely wanted them to be twue!
Cwistians wit what wood now be outdated toowels?

I say get your fancy sonar gadgets and your mega-monster-steam shovels and super earthmovers and get back there and look again.

Quit whining that grandpa looked around with a flashlight [by comparision] and didn't find anything.
If they were convinced otherwise, that should be good enough for us.
Of course --- you're probably taught that in college.

The real money is in sunken treasure, strange fossils, and lost keychains, isn't it?
 
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AV1611VET

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NOTHING you say ever has any evidence to support it. Ziltch. Nothing. Nada. Not even the tiniest smidgen of a possibility of some evidence.

How to give yourself credit for a "discovery" --- instead of calling it a "confirmation"?

I'll bet if you guys ever launched a telescope into space, and that telescope confirmed a passage of Scripture --- like, oh, say, Isaiah 40:22 --- you'd call that a 'discovery' --- wouldn't you?

Either that, or you'd say it confirmed Scientist Joe's theory.

Any evidence you find, you're trained to look the other way.
We'll keep looking, but we'll keep looking for whatever we can find.
 
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