Lordship Salvation

So, if it's the Holy Spirit that causes us to do this "surrender" thing you keep mentioning...then it's not really us surrendering at all...so why keep pushing us to DO something, if it's not our choice in the first place?
Kind of like when people do the decision theology garbage.

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Good question lillamb. and you're right, it's the Holy Spirits work. But why do we keep mentioning to do it? Well, I just want to make sure you know what Lordship Salvation gospel invitation is. Our invitation is simple. Accept Jesus for who he is. Lord & Savior. Is that somehow wrong? Like I said before we don't make him Lord, he is Lord! All we want is people to accept Jesus for who is he, not what they believe him to be or want him to be, but for who he really is regardless of what they think. Lord of All. Acts 10:36

Infact we say those that do not recieve him as Lord is guilty of rejecting him. "Faith" that rejects his sovereign authority is no faith at all. Accepting his Lordship is no more a human work than repentance or faith itself

What were saying is that the will to surrender to Christ is an inevitable aspect of a Faith produced by God, not something added to it.

And I totally agree with your last sentence. You're right about "decision theology garbage" There is no salvation but Lordship Salvation. Jesus never EVER said to make a "decision" or pray a prayer. The gospel Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow him in submissive obedience. And boy did many fail and leave. Anything less is clearly unbelief. True faith is not just lip service. Our Lord Jesus cursed those who worshiped him with their lips but not with their lives. Matt 15:7-9 Jesus is no ones savior unless you recieve him for who he REALLY is, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

So just to be clear of folks who say Lordship Salvation is works based. All we're saying is saving faith is a work of God. Its not seperalbe from repentance, surrender, and a supernatural longing to obey. Those are all elements that are found in "divine faith authord by God" None of those elements should be called "human effort" any more then true believing itself is. As i've said, the WHOLE salvation process is a work of God. not only Justification but regeneration, sanctification and ultimately glorification. Salvation is a work of God by which we are "conformed to the image of his Son"

And so answering your question. Why do we keep saying it? Because we do not want to deceive anybody. We don't want people to think they are saved when in fact they are not. The Gospel that Jesus preached unequivocally and clearly rules out easy-believism. What good is it if we present a half-gospel and get a superficial response? If we give the full gospel presentation, either they will respond by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them, or they wont, which just means the Holy Spirit wasn't regenerating their heart and will. So many people are SO concerned with the NUMBER GAME, who can get the most converts who can have the biggest church, WHO CARES!!!

Matt 7:21 is I believe is one of the scariest verse in the whole bible. A preacher once said, "to some, their entrance to Hell is from the entrance to Heaven. I mean think about it.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter

PS - you know lillamb, a lot of times i truly wonder if these opponents of Lordship are really saved. Apart from the work of God, who would want to submit to Christ ya know? I guess I should end with this, TRUE Grace, the grace we have as True Christians, according to scripture,

Titus 2:12
"instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age"





Arch, i don't know what your problem is, do you love putting words in my mouth. You say "My salvation comes from Christ alone" well, mine too, so lets keep it that way And I answered all your questions, in previous posts.

Accept Jesus for who he is.

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Sunguana, I think this sentence is where the "dividing line" is, so to speak. To many Lutherans, the word "accept" implies an active participation upon our part, apart from God, to come to a gift God has just sitting there for us to go and get. As Lutherans, we believe in complete passivity in receiving God's Grace... in fact, think of it as Grace being done unto us, rather than us going and getting it, or saying "okay, I'm ready now, give it to me".

I realize most people who use the word "accept" don't think of it as an active participation on our part apart from God to go to God, but many Lutherans do see that word as the "stumbling block", if you will, in many theologies. I remember once I used "accept" on these forums, and a certain few people felt the need to correct my erroneous theology, as they saw it. The theology turned out to be as they believed regarding this, but language was the barrier preventing the full view of that agreement for a while.

I recently read "Luther for Armchair Theologians". It was an interesting read. It mentioned how many people, especially in Martin's day, but also in today's times, seem to want to seek God by climbing some ladder to Heaven, with each rung of the ladder being some kind of good work (even the good work of publicly proclaiming the "right things"). The problem is, of course, that eventually a rung breaks, and we fall. Rinse, lather, repeat. Then, something miraculous happens. God comes down, knocking us off our ladder altogether, and sits on us. Pinned down by God's Grace, we ask "for me? You insist?" And God smiles at us.

As for why we do good works, I believe we are both in agreement that they come after God's Grace is in us, and we have surrendered (I'll add the word "passively" to that to remain in good Lutheran standing) to Jesus' Lordship. After all, we have no other God but this man Jesus. But the question necessarily arises, why do Good Works? Why did Jesus say what He did in Matt 7:21?

Well, for one, thing, people can say "Lord, Lord" in a drone fashion and not truly believe it. For another, people can outright fake it to put up a good front to others, but their fruit gives them away eventually. But does this verse indicate that God needs our good works as "proof" we believe? Well, God knows all, so I doubt he needs proof...

And that leads to a revelation that once slammed Martin Luther upside the head like a 2x4 laced with God's "well, duh!" version of Grace (silliness of my analogy intentional):

God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does.

If we do God's will, we obey His Law beause of His Gospel, but we obey the Law for the benefit of our neighbor (even our greatest works are laid at God's feet as stinky, stinky sin full of muck and crap). Otherwise, this world would be much more like hell on earth than what it already is.

Sun, could you define what you mean by "easy-believism"?

If someone has faith, that is enough...he/she doesn't have to DO anything for salvation.

Archaenfel said:

Have I sacrificed enough?
Have I submitted myself enough?
I still sin - does that mean I'm not really saved?
How will I know if I'm really saved if I can't trust whether or not I believe?
I really don't feel called to go on a mission trip - does that mean I'm not saved?

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Yep, all those things are contrived because of a false gospel that adds to what salvation is truly about. It's not about us and anything we do. And you know that

*Sacrifice? Christ said It is finished. Sufficient enough...don't insert me into the picture.
*Submitted myself enough? As someone else pointed out, was that, where is this in scripture? Christ submitted Himself. Again, sufficient enough. Don't insert me in the picture.
*I still sin. Yep, yep. I'm still living in the body of the Old Adam. The New Adam lives in me as well because God gave me faith.
*Doubt...it's that struggle of the Old Adam and New. Doesn't mean we're not Christians when we have some doubt. In fact, doubt shows that faith does exist, no matter how small. Otherwise, we wouldn't even bother caring.
*Mission trip. Not everyone is called to do the same things. We all have different gifts and God will lead us without us feeling we have to do something just to show others we are saved.

Sun, I agree with much of what you say.

I also understand your zeal.
You truly want people to be saved - nothing wrong with that at all.
You also get concerned that others might not be saved while claiming to be saved. Nothing wrong with that concern either.

(By the way, that "Lord, Lord ... " verse that you are quoting is talking about people who wanted entering the Heaven due to their works for Christ. "Miracles in your name ..." and claims like these).

I became a believer after someone gave me a Bible.
I was taught atheism in school for the first 15 years of my life back in USSR, then continued my non-spiritual trek also in U.S. and when 29-30, I received a Bible.

My life was in shambles by then due to my way of life and I was lost in a most direct sense of the word.

The Bible (just couple of verses) started having a LOT of influence on me.
It was in Matthew.

I was thinking about these verses often.

Some time later I stumbled on Billy Graham crusade on TV. Did not understand what he was talking about, yet words like "soul", "salvation", "Christ" stood out.

I called that number.
I prayed the dreaded sinner's prayer with a guy on the phone when he asked me if I wanted to become a Christian ... and my life started changing.

Christ was with me since infancy.
I know it now that I look back.
He even led my father to risk his rather high position in a Communist country and have me secretly baptized, at night, in one of the tiny Orthodox churches.

Our Lord used that sinner's prayer and led me to a decision (yes, I remember, I said to myself that I want to become a Christian).

After that, when I saw that I am a Christian - when a whole new spiritual life opened up, I wanted everyone to have that what I have.

So, I started praying with my friends and family that sinner's prayer.
IT WORKED!

Then, it somehow "stopped" working on other people.
It seemed to work on people that I knew well, yet not on the others - no change.

THEN I realized it.

It was not the sinner's prayer that "activated" salvation, but the fact that my friends and family SAW the diffence in my life.

Decision theology when advertised by US, is not a way to salvation.

Yet I am grateful to our Lord that He used that in my life.

He was with me since infancy.
He just opened my eyes to it when I was 30.

My decision was not really a decision, but a confession of that what I was yearning.

How do I evangelize now?

Tell them the Gospel. The good news.
Some listen, some do not.
Take them to church. Give out Bibles. Hold Bible studies.

Then it clicks with people and eventually they confess Christ.
They somehow believe that unlikely and unreasonable to the world story that Christ lived, died and rose again.

But it is not a matter of a decision, ... it just "clicks".
The Gospel somehow becomes relevant to them.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

Hey great replies, let me address Angelus first. Well, when I said "accept Jesus for who he is" all I meant was believe Jesus for who he is. In other words, you can't just say I believe in Jesus and don't believe that he is part of the Trinity, or he isn't fully man etc etc. That wouldn't be believing in Jesus. I just meant believe him for who he is as presented in the Bible. I hope that clarifies it

As far as works go, I guess this is the simplest way to put it, we do not work because we have to but rather because we want to. So for us, it's not a ladder we climb to God rather Since God is already in Us, we just want to! And the psalmist said it best

Psalm 119:97

O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day

So I totally agree, our best works are like "DUNG" as the apostle put it. It can't save anyone. Only by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone is anyone saved.

But what [at this point i'm answering lillamb] bothers me is people's view on what Faith really is. They think thats it's just accecpting the facts about Jesus. Some sects of evengelicals go as far as to say things like this that you don't need "no spiritual commitment whatsoever" This is not the gospel Jesus preached. Just believing the facts doesn't save anyone. Even the devils believe the facts. Easy-believism" states there can be justification without sanctification. But is that what the bible teaches? As i said earlier, the whole process of salvation is of God, from regeneration, justification, sanctification to glorification. It's a work of God and can't be "broken" in any link.

Eph 2:10

"we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works"

Heb 12:2

"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith"

Alot of this I believe comes from many people misunderstanding of the definition of Grace and Faith. God's grace doesn't just accept hardened unrepentant sinners. In other words, Grace doesn't just change a persons standing before God while leaving his character unchanged. As I mentinoed earlier, true Grace teaches us to "deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age" Just like grace, faith does it's things in a believer too. It causes us to be repentant, to surrender and produce a longing and a desire to obey our Lord.

A lot of people who espouses "easy-belivism" says Just because sripture contrasts faith and works they can't be compatible. That is wrong. What does James teach? And this is one of they key points of misunderstanding of Lordship Salvation. They say that submission, yieldedness, turning from sin are all in opposition to faith and is part of human works. They realize that salvation is a gift, yes. But what they fail to understand is that it costs everything. I won't go into detail as I believe you all know the parables. Always remember though, like I said above, it costs everything but we want to pay the price. Not because it saves, but because we love it and want it desperately. Thats the power of God working in our will and enabling us to do so. I pray im clear on this haha.

It seems like a pradox yes, but the fact of the matter is the bible in every major doctrine has a paradox. For instance, Matt 11:28-29 in Jesus' own words.

"I will give you rest", followed by "take My yoke upon you" The faith we recieve in other words is not an approval to do nothing. True faith will cause the sinner to hate the life of sin, and love and cling and be drawn to Jesus and his commands. And as I mentioned, no one is perfect we all fail miserably at times, but it's the direction, not the perfection. I'd also like to say I understand some people might be truly born again, without clearly considering the cost of following Christ. Without knowing Lordship's full implication. But I am SURE if they are truly born again by the Holy Spirit, they will manifest some degree of surrender to Christs Lordship. In other words, the direction has changed. And so the problem with easy-believism is not that it will keep God's elect from getting saved, but that it allows people who are not genuine Christians to live comfortably with a false assurance

I believe most of you are in agreement with me, how can we not be if we indeed possess saving faith. All these elements i've mentioned are parts of a saving faith, not a road to it. And since God is not dependant on human effort to produce those elements, Lordship Salvation states an experience that lacks any of them cannot be the saving work of God. And for clarification purpose i'll say again, we will sin, but the process of our sanctification NEVER does.

Phil 2:13

"for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"

Phil 1:6

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus"

1 Tehs 5:24

"Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass"


I just moved to cali from colorado. It HOT!

edial, thats an amazing life story of yours. God works in a myriad of ways. Like I said, even if the Gospel is not given in it's fullness, even if Lordship wasn't mentioned, if the conversion was real, it will show the change of direction. Change of attitude towards Jesus. And God does indeed use televengelist and other means to convert. I know people, true Christians who became a Chrisitan after listening to Joel Olsteen. But the sad thing is, most people who are given a shallow gospel, end there. No growth whatsoever. They continue to live a worldy life thinking [decieved] that they are perfectly fine in the eyes of God because they look back in history to a time where they, walked the aile, prayed a prayer, signed a sheet, whatever. Salvation, biblicly is always defined by what it produced, not by what one does to get it. I thank God that your conversoin was real.

ps - it's amazing how you were taught atheism and through all that "brain washing" you still came to believe! <-- from a human perspective Yes did God kept you indeed. <-- from God's perspective

sungaunga, you seem to be repeating yourself. I'd be curious to see your view of the post I made a page back http://www.christianforums.com/t7340413-12/#post52420158 about whether or not an infant can be shown to have accepted Christ's Lordship.

CantateDomino said:

sungaunga, you seem to be repeating yourself. I'd be curious to see your view of the post I made a page back http://www.christianforums.com/t7340413-12/#post52420158 about whether or not an infant can be shown to have accepted Christ's Lordship.

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oops, sorry didn't mean to leave your topic out about infants, i'll be back after dinner~

Hey CantateDomino~ I'm back

I'm not sure if you've heard of this concept but I am a firm believer in "the age of accountability" Now I want to be clear first of all that this is not some wishful thinking on my part, and I think there are some good biblical support of this.

First of all, we know that people go to hell for rejecting Jesus. It's their rejection of the Light that dooms them forever. I firmly believe that an infant up to a point in adolecense, is not able to make a decision to willfully reject. Your cute double column thingy says that. Only God knows the time and know when that rejection actually took place. The age i believe differs from child to child, some child matures faster then other, some slower.. like me.

I think a good illustration would be the story of David and his little baby. When David's baby died you remember what he said? "He cannot come to me but I shall go to him." I'm sure David knew where he himself was going. I believe David said this in that anticipation. Also, in the OT, many times, children who die are refered to as "innocent." So I belive that prior to the age of accountability, God treats them as innocents. Don't get me wrong though, I don't mean they're not fallen or not sinful. I'm just saying God treats them as innocent inspite of that and as his grace is poured on us, adults [sinners], he excirses his grace to those young ones too.

So inconclusion, I believe that there is an age when you reject God and you know yourself to be willfully doing so. By the way, in Jewish cultures, that transitions they say took place around age 12. And if you remember, thats when our Lord Jesus was in the temple conversing with the teachers. Oh, I guess I need to say, Jesus loved kids. I'm sure if I dig around the bible there would be some good verses regarding kids too. well, thats my two cents~

"Arch, i don't know what your problem is, do you love putting words in my mouth."

---

Oh, I do - very much. Words such as:

" I don't want to or mean to bust your bubble but I think now is a perfect time to examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith."

This is the reality of Lordship Salvation: if your deeds are not at a sufficient level, then your faith does not truly exist.



"They realize that salvation is a gift, yes. But what they fail to understand is that it costs everything."

Therefore, if I have not sold my home and gone into bankrupcy in order to maintain my tithe, then my faith is not sufficient?

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That which you call 'easy believism', is a cut-out of what we truly believe. To truly have a saving faith is more than accepting an accumulation of facts: it is accepting the gift of free salvation through the power of God. No works ... no proofs ... no demonstration within. God offers salvation, God nurtures the faith, and God finishes His good work.

True faith sees that our sins *are* sins. We are sorry for them, we repent of them, and we strive to improve our lives. Yet the Christian who struggles continuously with a sin is no less redeemed than the one who has lived a conspicuously moral life. He has more to struggle with, more to confess, and more to repent on a regular basis than others - and for that reason he deserves support more; not judgement.

The sinner's salvation is not in question: it is an act of God.

Then there is the sinner who struggles with an ongoing sin, and may be unaware of the depth of their shortcoming. Conviction is needed, the gravity of their deeds needs to be ingrained within them, yet the sinner is still a True Believer and always has been. The depth of their error simply needed to be brought to their attention. A true believer would feel great guilt for this, and would strive to improve.

The sinner's salvation was not and is not in question: it is an act of God.

I am no more saved than a new convert, and no less saved than my pastor. Whatever deeds come from me shall come from me naturally. Lordship Salvation creates hurdles and barriers between God and those who need Him the most - believers who struggle earnestly with their sins, rather than those who blush after blurting out the odd curse word and otherwise go trippy through their lives ... completely oblivious to what a real struggle against one's own nature feels like.

My salvation is not in question: it is an act of God.

Archaenfel said:

"Arch, i don't know what your problem is, do you love putting words in my mouth."

---

Oh, I do - very much. Words such as:

" I don't want to or mean to bust your bubble but I think now is a perfect time to examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith."

This is the reality of Lordship Salvation: if your deeds are not at a sufficient level, then your faith does not truly exist.



"They realize that salvation is a gift, yes. But what they fail to understand is that it costs everything."

Therefore, if I have not sold my home and gone into bankrupcy in order to maintain my tithe, then my faith is not sufficient?

-----------------------

That which you call 'easy believism', is a cut-out of what we truly believe. To truly have a saving faith is more than accepting an accumulation of facts: it is accepting the gift of free salvation through the power of God. No works ... no proofs ... no demonstration within. God offers salvation, God nurtures the faith, and God finishes His good work.

True faith sees that our sins *are* sins. We are sorry for them, we repent of them, and we strive to improve our lives. Yet the Christian who struggles continuously with a sin is no less redeemed than the one who has lived a conspicuously moral life. He has more to struggle with, more to confess, and more to repent on a regular basis than others - and for that reason he deserves support more; not judgement.

The sinner's salvation is not in question: it is an act of God.

Then there is the sinner who struggles with an ongoing sin, and may be unaware of the depth of their shortcoming. Conviction is needed, the gravity of their deeds needs to be ingrained within them, yet the sinner is still a True Believer and always has been. The depth of their error simply needed to be brought to their attention. A true believer would feel great guilt for this, and would strive to improve.

The sinner's salvation was not and is not in question: it is an act of God.

I am no more saved than a new convert, and no less saved than my pastor. Whatever deeds come from me shall come from me naturally. Lordship Salvation creates hurdles and barriers between God and those who need Him the most - believers who struggle earnestly with their sins, rather than those who blush after blurting out the odd curse word and otherwise go trippy through their lives ... completely oblivious to what a real struggle against one's own nature feels like.

My salvation is not in question: it is an act of God.

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Good post, Arch.

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sungaunga said:

I'm not sure if you've heard of this concept but I am a firm believer in "the age of accountability"

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Yeah, I've heard of it. It's the main reason I stopped being a Baptist after 43 years.

I know you have an argument, with some vague references to scripture, but have you ever really stopped and thought about the implications of accountability theology? Have you ever done a study of the the history of the doctrine of accountability - where it originated, and why? I think you would be surprised, especially when you see what else its originators espoused.

Don't you find that accountability theology and original sin are mutually exclusive? Or do you believe there is another way to be saved apart from 'by grace, through faith'? I believe it's safe to say that you do believe in original sin, and that you also believe in sola fide, so just how do you square that with an age of accountability?

sungaunga said:

I'm not sure if you've heard of this concept but I am a firm believer in "the age of accountability" Now I want to be clear first of all that this is not some wishful thinking on my part, and I think there are some good biblical support of this.

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I always loved Filo's response to posts such as these. Perhaps he will grace you with his take on this. He usually quotes verses such as John 3:16, "For God so loved the world over the age of accountability that He gave His only Son, that whoever over the age of accountability believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Or this one from Matthew 28, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations over the age of accountability, baptizing those over the age of accountability in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching those over the age of accountability all that I have commanded you."

First of all, we know that people go to hell for rejecting Jesus. It's their rejection of the Light that dooms them forever. I firmly believe that an infant up to a point in adolecense, is not able to make a decision to willfully reject.

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The only sin that condemns one to hell is unbelief. One believes when one hears the message of Christ (Romans 10). The Psalmist writes in Psalm 51 that we are all conceived and born sinful. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Whoever does not believe is condemned (Mark 16:16). There is no magic "age of accountability". We are all destined for hell from conception, except by the grace of God.

I think the main problem found in this thread is the common confusion between justification and sanctification. Justification and salvation are synonomous. When we are justified by God, made right with Him, we are saved. This is done by Him alone. We play no part. We do not cooperate with this. The reason we don't cooperate is because it is already done. It is finished. It's like saying "I'm going to help my brother build his house" two months after it's already been built. There is nothing for us to participate in. It is already been done and finished.

Sanctification, on the other hand, is something that we participate in by our human actions. But sanctification is initiated and carried out by the power of the Holy Spirit. It requires no active initiative on our part, only our cooperation, which was defined by Edial as "not rejecting" even though that's a poor definition, it's probably the closest we can come to on the matter. Sanctification is the Holy Spirit working in us and through us, first by giving us the desire to do as God commands, and then using us to carry it out. Our mouths and voices proclaim the Gospel, but it's God's words we speak. Our hands and feet do the things that display our saving faith, but it's the Holy Spirit actively working in us. Our hands help the needy, heal the sick, feed the hungry, show compassion to the world, do the things Christ commands, but it's the Holy Spirit directing and guiding and enabling our hands and feet and mouths to do those things. While we do participate in our sanctification, it is, at the basic level, a passive participation. And through all of this our faith is strengthened.

What I read here about "Lordship Salvation" sounds an awful lot like sanctification, but the word "salvation" places the emphasis on that which the Lord has already done Himself on our behalf. It's the wrong word to use. We don't cooperate or participate in our salvation because it's already been done. The proper term, is Sanctification. This is what Lutherans teach and believe.

I love when pastors chime in on threads and write so eloquently what we were all trying to say LOL

DaRev said:

This is what Lutherans teach and believe.

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LilLamb219 said:

I love when pastors chime in on threads and write so eloquently what we were all trying to say LOL

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This is most certainly true.