I am not sure of what religion to believe in.

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franklin

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I am currently not sure which religion is the true religion. I used to believe in Jesus. I used to believe in Satan, and in a way, still believes in him. But now, instead of seeing him(Satan) as God that I should worship, I see him more as a friend to help me in time of uncertainty.
I see many miracles in many religions. I think all religions are valid. I am moving towards not relying on any god, not Yahweh the christian god, not satan. I think I am my own god. That is, I do good deeds because I want to and I love to, not because I want to please any particular god.
During my free time, I am reading up on religions. Any and every religion.

Why not atheism? It's not a religion. It really has nothing to offer except simply thinking for yourself. No gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. The only thing atheism offers is for one to use their own mind. In my not so humble opinion, it's the most logical, rational means for separating fact from fiction. It is being intellectually honest about the natural world we live in and that this is the only life we will ever know. Therefore, I think you should forget about religion and go with atheism.
 
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Wicked Willow

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Why not atheism? It's not a religion. It really has nothing to offer except simply thinking for yourself. No gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. The only thing atheism offers is for one to use their own mind. In my not so humble opinion, it's the most logical, rational means for separating fact from fiction. It is being intellectually honest about the natural world we live in and that this is the only life we will ever know. Therefore, I think you should forget about religion and go with atheism.
Actually... the term "atheism" in itself makes no claims whatsoever about "thinking for yourself", or "using your own mind". An atheistic, secular ideology can be just as dogmatic, narrow-minded and eschatological as a religion - just think of Communism, for example: it even comes with its own version of heaven, the post-revolutionary classless society.
 
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sidhe

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Actually... the term "atheism" in itself makes no claims whatsoever about "thinking for yourself", or "using your own mind". An atheistic, secular ideology can be just as dogmatic, narrow-minded and eschatological as a religion - just think of Communism, for example: it even comes with its own version of heaven, the post-revolutionary classless society.

This.

As I've heard said many times on other forums, all atheism is is a statement of one's position on the existence of deity. An atheist can still be an irrational, dogmatic, creature possessed of a sheeplike mentality.
 
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franklin

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Actually... the term "atheism" in itself makes no claims whatsoever about "thinking for yourself", or "using your own mind". An atheistic, secular ideology can be just as dogmatic, narrow-minded and eschatological as a religion - just think of Communism, for example: it even comes with its own version of heaven, the post-revolutionary classless society.

No but those are the basic characteristics of atheism. Using ones own mind set free from superstition. Atheism is the heart of reason. After all, is there any other way to separate fact from fiction? Oh that's right. You're not an atheist. You're a Pantheist right? That's different from being an atheist right?

That's interesting about communists and they're own version of heaven? That's odd. Atheists don't have any version of such an imaginary place. If anything communism has more in common with fundamentalist religion than atheism. So typical of the misconceptions and myths about atheists and atheism as you have expressed.
 
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Rasta

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No but those are the basic characteristics of atheism. Using ones own mind set free from superstition. Atheism is the heart of reason. After all, is there any other way to separate fact from fiction? Oh that's right. You're not an atheist. You're a Pantheist right? That's different from being an atheist right?

I do think it's obnoxious when atheists claim that only atheists can be rationale. You're convinced you're right and everyone else is wrong? That's fundimentalist thinking Franklin.
 
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franklin

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I say don't sweat it OP. Do what feels right.

What I think you misunderstood in my comment was on reason. Is there any other means by which to separate fact from fiction? Reason should be the only logical answer. So let me ask you. Is there a higher judge of truth/fact than reason? Sorry but that is not arrogance. Sorry you got your nose out of joint as usual.
 
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Rasta

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What I think you misunderstood in my comment was on reason. Is there any other means by which to separate fact from fiction? Reason should be the only logical answer. So let me ask you. Is there a higher judge of truth/fact than reason? Sorry but that is not arrogance. Sorry you got your nose out of joint as usual.

Yes reason is what lets us seperate fact from fiction. That doesn't mean that atheists are the only ones with the capacity for reason. I know a lot of reasonable theists. They disbelieve in a lot of fictional stuff. Reason however is not fool proof, and it doesn't always lead to the same conclusion.
 
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franklin

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Yes reason is what lets us seperate fact from fiction. That doesn't mean that atheists are the only ones with the capacity for reason. I know a lot of reasonable theists. They disbelieve in a lot of fictional stuff. Reason however is not fool proof, and it doesn't always lead to the same conclusion.

Ok Rasta, I'll try to make it a little easier for you since you sidestepped my question on reason. Which method would you rely on more in determining truth? Faith or reason? Here's a little hint for you. Truth should always without doubt conform with fact and reality.

Take your time.
 
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Wicked Willow

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No but those are the basic characteristics of atheism.
Wrong. "Atheism" refers to any world view that does not involve god(s).

Using ones own mind set free from superstition.
Gods are not the only superstition out there. And fanatical, irrational zeal can be found in the most unlikely places.
Atheism is the heart of reason.
Spoken like a true fundamentalist. Do you hold the monopoly on reason, franklin?
After all, is there any other way to separate fact from fiction?
Not believing in god(s) is not "the heart of reason". It's a conclusion, not a cause or method.

Oh that's right. You're not an atheist. You're a Pantheist right? That's different from being an atheist right?
Actually, I'm a panentheistic pagan who doesn't happen to believe in the "supernatural" in any classical sense of the word. It's all "just" myths and psychology to me, in a rather Campbellian sense.

That's interesting about communists and they're own version of heaven? That's odd. Atheists don't have any version of such an imaginary place.
Communists ARE (one specific kind of) atheists, franklin. All it takes to qualify is not believing in god(s). Get it?

If anything communism has more in common with fundamentalist religion than atheism. So typical of the misconceptions and myths about atheists and atheism as you have expressed.
Repeat: "Atheism" is an umbrella term that holds virtually no ideological content. It merely describes any world view that doesn't include god(s). Nothing more, nothing less. Communists are atheists. Objectivists are atheists. (Some) Buddhists are atheists. Secular humanists are atheists. And so are French existentialists, Nietzschean nihilists, naturalistic pantheists - and many, many more, including people who don't fall into any category, but simply do not believe in god(s).
Are you a fundamentalist, franklin? Because you sure sound like one.
 
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Is anyone here all knowing and omnipresent? Those who say there is no God would have to have those two attributes (omniscience and being present everywhere in the universe) to know that. The Bible says in Romans 1:18-19,

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

There are other verses dealing with this as well, but I suggest reading Job chapters 38-42, but if that is difficult I can put verses 31-33 of chapter 38 here for starters.
"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?"

It's something to think about. If you think the earth just happened, then why do species start to die out instead of increasing and becoming better on their own? As a Christian, I believe the world was created perfect, but after man disobeyed God it began to go downhill.
Psalm 19:1 says,
"The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands."

I know that fiction is a lot more fun for most people to read. I understand that.
If you consider that eternity could exist, then I hope that you will want to search out the truth like a pearl of great price. Is your soul valuable to you...enough that you would want to search out what is real? I hope so.
Can you prove to yourself with evidence that God does not exist?

If you truly believe you are god, then can you create a new world as good as this one?

How did this world come into existence?


Jesus made some serious claims. Who do you say that He is?

Just some things to think about.
There are other historical records that are supportive of things in the Bible as well as archaelogical evidences. You can see prophecies from the Old Testament fulfilled in the New Testament.
The Word of God is foolishness to those who cannot see it's Truth. God can reveal Himself to people. Would you be willing to pray and ask Him to show you what is true? I pray God will reveal Himself to you. I'd encourage you to read the Bible. The books I mentioned in a previous posting would be good.

I do care about people and want them to know Jesus. Faith is based on evidence, and there is plenty of logic and reason to the Bible. Still, there is an element of what is unseen, and that is why there is need for faith. You can't see wind, but it exists. You can see it's effects for instance.
 
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Rasta

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Ok Rasta, I'll try to make it a little easier for you since you sidestepped my question on reason. Which method would you rely on more in determining truth? Faith or reason? Here's a little hint for you. Truth should always without doubt conform with fact and reality.

Take your time.

I didn't sidestep anything. Perhaps you didn't understand when I said: "Yes reason is what lets us seperate fact from fiction."?

Hmmm, interesting conclusion Franklin. I hope you don't presume to reprepresent all atheists with your sound "reason". I know I'd be offended if you did personally.
 
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Rasta

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Wrong. "Atheism" refers to any world view that does not involve god(s).

Gods are not the only superstition out there. And fanatical, irrational zeal can be found in the most unlikely places.
Spoken like a true fundamentalist. Do you hold the monopoly on reason, franklin?
Not believing in god(s) is not "the heart of reason". It's a conclusion, not a cause or method.

Actually, I'm a panentheistic pagan who doesn't happen to believe in the "supernatural" in any classical sense of the word. It's all "just" myths and psychology to me, in a rather Campbellian sense.

Communists ARE (one specific kind of) atheists, franklin. All it takes to qualify is not believing in god(s). Get it?

Repeat: "Atheism" is an umbrella term that holds virtually no ideological content. It merely describes any world view that doesn't include god(s). Nothing more, nothing less. Communists are atheists. Objectivists are atheists. (Some) Buddhists are atheists. Secular humanists are atheists. And so are French existentialists, Nietzschean nihilists, naturalistic pantheists - and many, many more, including people who don't fall into any category, but simply do not believe in god(s).
Are you a fundamentalist, franklin? Because you sure sound like one.

Great post. I agree. I am also an atheist.
 
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Penumbra

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Ok Rasta, I'll try to make it a little easier for you since you sidestepped my question on reason. Which method would you rely on more in determining truth? Faith or reason? Here's a little hint for you. Truth should always without doubt conform with fact and reality.

Take your time.
Rasta's point is clear to me and he answered your question directly. You're using belittling language in your post, but why?

Reason is the most useful method for determining truth. Yet, reason is only perfect when the reasoner has perfect and complete knowledge of everything. Since nobody has this, human reason is imperfect. It's the best we got, but it's still imperfect. Because each person has a different subset of knowledge, their lines of reasoning will not necessarily lead to the exact same conclusion.

-Lyn
 
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Rasta

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Rasta's point is clear to me and he answered your question directly. You're using belittling language in your post, but why?

Reason is the most useful method for determining truth. Yet, reason is only perfect when the reasoner has perfect and complete knowledge of everything. Since nobody has this, human reason is imperfect. It's the best we got, but it's still imperfect. Because each person has a different subset of knowledge, their lines of reasoning will not necessarily lead to the exact same conclusion.

-Lyn

Yes, exactly. :thumbsup:
 
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franklin

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Wrong. "Atheism" refers to any world view that does not involve god(s).
I'll agree with that. It is also a philosophical view on religion not on political views as you have tried to associate communism with atheism in the other OP.

Gods are not the only superstition out there.
I know. There are other things such as ghosts, spirits, devils, demons and pretty much anything relating to the imaginary supernatural realm that goes no further than the mind.

And fanatical, irrational zeal can be found in the most unlikely places.
yes these ideas do have their unlikely place in the world. Usually associated with religion which is superstition.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist. Do you hold the monopoly on reason, franklin?

I'm not sure what you're asking me here? How can I hold a monopoly on reason? Fundamentalist? As in a fundamentalist atheist? No I'm just your average positive atheist or strong atheist. Nothing fundamentalist about that. But if that is what you think of strong atheists then call me a fundamentalist atheist. I have no problem asserting God is myth. I'm not one of those wishy washy, agnostic/atheists who talks out of both sides of their mouths. I think we as educated adults should know by now that God is myth and the most ridiculous invention of mankind ever to curse a society.


Not believing in god(s) is not "the heart of reason". It's a conclusion, not a cause or method.
I stand corrected then. I meant to say reason is at the heart of atheism. Reason is what rules. Faith is the destroyer of reason.

Actually, I'm a panentheistic pagan who doesn't happen to believe in the "supernatural" in any classical sense of the word. It's all "just" myths and psychology to me, in a rather Campbellian sense.
So then you're an atheist then. I like Richard Dawkins description of a Pantheist. A sexed up atheist. Pretty good.

Communists ARE (one specific kind of) atheists, franklin. All it takes to qualify is not believing in god(s). Get it?
Yea I get it smart guy or er, gal, whatever.

Catholics and other religions can be communist also. Like I just said above, atheism is a philosophical view on religion not political like communism is. Jesus even advocated a form of communism. Christianity can be viewed as communistic too; community property belong to every one etc.

Repeat: "Atheism" is an umbrella term that holds virtually no ideological content. It merely describes any world view that doesn't include god(s). Nothing more, nothing less. Communists are atheists. Objectivists are atheists. (Some) Buddhists are atheists. Secular humanists are atheists. And so are French existentialists, Nietzschean nihilists, naturalistic pantheists - and many, many more, including people who don't fall into any category, but simply do not believe in god(s).
Are you a fundamentalist, franklin? Because you sure sound like one.
Glad you clarified that. Pretty much what I said above about Catholics being communist

As for me being a fundamentalist. I consider myself a positive atheist or strong atheist. I know that does come across as fundamentalist but I don't see it that way but if that's what blows your dress up, then cool, I'm a fundamentalist atheist. I see the God idea as the most ridiculous concept ever invented. I consider my atheism as the knowledge there is no God and every other imaginary superstitious idea related to the God idea. Ghosts, demons, devils, angels, heaven and hell and spirits that haunt people in grave yards late at night. They are all born out of fear of the unknown in order to make people fell more secure about what might or might not happen after death. If God was never invented, I'm sure someone would have come along sooner or later & created one eventually out of their own silly little insecurities.
 
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franklin

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Rasta's point is clear to me and he answered your question directly. You're using belittling language in your post, but why?

Reason is the most useful method for determining truth. Yet, reason is only perfect when the reasoner has perfect and complete knowledge of everything. Since nobody has this, human reason is imperfect. It's the best we got, but it's still imperfect. Because each person has a different subset of knowledge, their lines of reasoning will not necessarily lead to the exact same conclusion.

-Lyn

I think you too are missing the point. I'm not talking about having knowledge of EVERYTHING. I'm referring to the only means by which we are able to grasp knowledge through reason as it conforms with objective reality. A speck of sand is fact, it is reality that you and I both cannot deny as one example. Gravity is another. Air that we breathe is another. It's not that complicated as some are trying to make it.
 
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I am currently not sure which religion is the true religion. I used to believe in Jesus. I used to believe in Satan, and in a way, still believes in him. But now, instead of seeing him(Satan) as God that I should worship, I see him more as a friend to help me in time of uncertainty.
I see many miracles in many religions. I think all religions are valid. I am moving towards not relying on any god, not Yahweh the christian god, not satan. I think I am my own god. That is, I do good deeds because I want to and I love to, not because I want to please any particular god.
During my free time, I am reading up on religions. Any and every religion.

I believe in Jesus and what he said and how he lived.

Everyone else? No.

As for "dark powers", those are just powers of man, not God.

Man is apart from God and only Jesus comes from Heaven. No man can do good from his own, but that he be born again and live in God through the Spirit of Jesus Christ, which is the Spirit of God.

God alone is Holy.

All who teach that they are as God, though flesh, are vastly ignorant of the peace, love, and joy which can be found by being true Children of God through Jesus Christ crucified.

Many try to be God. God will sometimes even give them some rope to run with it, so they may learn -- or others may learn. What a curse that is! I would run from that, if I were you.

It is God who controls every single detail of your life, however big or small.

I would strongly suggest not trying to think of yourself as God, therefore, even if you find things are going smoothly for you.

God made you and knows your sins and is very patient.

Do not think the wicked will always thrive against God. The time of the dark powers is quickly coming to a close. They choose their sides. Woe to them if God has made them blind to their true identities!

But, even if they knew: could they change?
 
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Penumbra

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I think you too are missing the point. I'm not talking about having knowledge of EVERYTHING. I'm referring to the only means by which we are able to grasp knowledge through reason as it conforms with objective reality. A speck of sand is fact, it is reality that you and I both cannot deny as one example. Gravity is another. Air that we breathe is another. It's not that complicated as some are trying to make it.
But the issue is that you're assuming, by default, that all reason and everyone's reason agrees with your reason and your conclusion.

You're promoting reason as though it were a perfect, foolproof, way to determine truth, which it is not. People can reason very well and still come to an inaccurate conclusion. Reason is the best we have for determining truth, but its effectiveness for determining truth is proportional to our amount of knowledge about a subject. So to assume that all reasoning should conform perfectly to what you promote is odd, since all people have a somewhat different subset of knowledge at their disposal to reason with.

You use gravity as an example of a fact about reality that we cannot deny. Newton used reason to develop equations governing gravity quite accurately, but was unable to reason what gravity really was or what caused it other than providing possible ideas (like possibly being a manifestation of God's love, as he proposed, being the theist he was). He left it for others to determine. Einstein later used reason to provide a solid case for what gravity really was, the curvature of space, and even showed that Newton's equations are wrong in certain areas. Newton's equations weren't wrong because he didn't use enough reason; they were wrong because he lived in an earlier time and had less knowledge to work with. Einstein didn't necessarily use superior reasoning to form a more accurate theory of gravity; they were both astounding geniuses. He just used his considerable reason to work with a larger amount of knowledge than Newton did, including the groundwork that Newton put down. Maybe one day Einstein's theories will be expanded as well, possibly to unite with quantum mechanics or other fundamental concepts in physics.

The point is, even great reasoning can fail to account for the entire picture above and beyond knowledge we have access to at any given moment.

-Lyn
 
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