Does one need to be baptized in order to be saved?

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cougan

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Cougan,

I did not contradict myself. To confess your sins is indeed works, it is hard works - there isn't a person alive who could confess to God every sin he or she has ever committed. That is works.

To confess (homologeo) or, to say and mean, that Jesus is Lord is not works - we are not saved by our own works; If we could save ourselves by our works we woulnd't have needed the savior to pay the full price for us.

We are not saved by confessing our sins, we are saved by confessing the savior who paid for all sins, and, by believing that God raised him from the dead.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant, but the way you originly had it worded seemed like you were contridicting yourself because I did not know you were talking about confessing your sins as opposed to confessing Jesus as Lord.

You still need to answer the question about faith being a work.
 
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cougan

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cougan

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I figured this was where your stumbling block was, cessionalist teaching.

The biggest problem with that sort of doctrine is it doesn't agree with the body of scripture. For instance,..



And we see Jesus state this same thing as His standard for all of us,..



There is no disclaimer here from Jesus. His works include healing, prophecy, words of wisdom, working of miracles, etc, etc.

You don't get to pick and choose what you think you should be doing for Jesus, you are to follow Him, and with that, our conversation has ended. I've had my fair share of debates with cessionalists and it only leads to a strife of tongues. Good day.

I looked on the web for the defination of a cessionalist, but could not find one. Could you give me definition please. Whatever you are accusing me does not really matter because my doctrine as you have stated in not my own, it comes from the Bible.

The verse you gave proves nothing. I belive in the miracles Bible and I belive those that the Apostles laid their hands on were able to do the works of the Lord, but the main purpose for the miracles was to prove that the Word of God being spoken was from God. Once it was fully revealed the purpose of miracles ended.

This thread is about baptism and we are getting off topic, but you have not dealt with grammar rule I gave you because you cannot because the grammer rule cannot be changed.

You have not dealt with any of the arguments I have presented in Scripture and you have done what most typically do, you dodge dealing with arguments by saying it will lead to strife in tongues, but we both know that is just an excuse.

I am Christian, and will discuss matters such as these in a Christian manner. I respect that you have your opinion on things even if I opinion is wrong. You have my word that I will not call you names, say mean things, or fail to deal with every argument you bring forth.

If you choose to end the discussion, that is your right.
 
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cougan

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Consider these Scriptures:

Heb. 6:1-2: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

1 John 5:8: "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Just as there exists a threefold godhead: Father, Son and Holy Ghost; and a threefold makeup of man: spirit, soul and body; we also have a threefold doctrine of baptisms: Spirit, water and blood.

The Spirit baptism is for the empowerment of the soul. Water baptism is for the demonstration to the world that when our bodies are immersed in water, we are declaring our separation from the world. And, blood baptism relates to the verse, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins," or justification. Blood baptism is for the quickening of your spirit.

So, in answer to your question, do we need baptized in order to be saved, the answer is surely, absolutely yes! We can't escape blood baptism during our intial repentance. When we give our lives to Christ we are being literally baptized in Christ's blood, for through the shedding of His blood He became the propitiation of our sins, and only through his shed blood can we become Christians.

Dave

That is creative, but wrong at least from what the Bible teaches me.

The Hebrew writer is not teaching that there is more than one baptism that saves, but that the doctrine or teachings of baptisms should be understood. In other words, by now they should understand, that John's baptism is no longer valid, but that the baptism Jesus commanded is what saves.

You present 3 different baptisms, but Paul clearly states that under the new convenant there is only 1 baptism that saves Eph. 4:4-5, and I have shown in my previous post from the Scriptures that one baptism is water baptism.
 
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C. Davis

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Baptism in the NT took place almost immediately after profession of faith in Christ. Unfortunately, we seem to be slow at this today. Many times it is weeks or even months before a new convert gets baptized. Therefore, it is a real possibility that there have been thousands of cases, over the years, that people have put faith in Christ and have died before they got baptized. My question is this:

Do these people who have put faith in Christ and died not having been baptized end up in hell?

please begin answers with a "yes" or "no". Thank you.

Chuck
 
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coolbrees

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Baptism in the NT took place almost immediately after profession of faith in Christ. Unfortunately, we seem to be slow at this today. Many times it is weeks or even months before a new convert gets baptized. Therefore, it is a real possibility that there have been thousands of cases, over the years, that people have put faith in Christ and have died before they got baptized. My question is this:

Do these people who have put faith in Christ and died not having been baptized end up in hell?

please begin answers with a "yes" or "no". Thank you.

Chuck

Absolutely not! John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Where is the importance of baptism stated here? If baptism is the key to salvation that would put man in control of who goes to heaven and not God. That would make my pastor Dr. Mike more important to a man's salvation than Christ. That doesn't sit well with me.
 
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hopeinGod

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That is creative, but wrong at least from what the Bible teaches me.

The Hebrew writer is not teaching that there is more than one baptism that saves, but that the doctrine or teachings of baptisms should be understood. In other words, by now they should understand, that John's baptism is no longer valid, but that the baptism Jesus commanded is what saves.

You present 3 different baptisms, but Paul clearly states that under the new convenant there is only 1 baptism that saves Eph. 4:4-5, and I have shown in my previous post from the Scriptures that one baptism is water baptism.

Just as oneness is true of an egg, it too is threefold: shell, white and yolk. Baptisms is like this. We're told in Eph. 4 one baptism, but it is called "the doctrine of baptisms" in Hebrews to indicate the separation as part of the foundational training the Hebrews had forsaken.

There is one doctrine of baptisms, made up of three separate and distinct baptisms: blood, spirit and water.

Pretty simple to me. John "preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4). You don't think he was preaching water baptism for the remission sins, do you? For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. He was preaching justification through faith, through the blood of Christ, not water.

You sound like you are a Oneness Pentecostal.

Dave
 
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cougan

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Baptism in the NT took place almost immediately after profession of faith in Christ. Unfortunately, we seem to be slow at this today. Many times it is weeks or even months before a new convert gets baptized. Therefore, it is a real possibility that there have been thousands of cases, over the years, that people have put faith in Christ and have died before they got baptized. My question is this:

Do these people who have put faith in Christ and died not having been baptized end up in hell?

please begin answers with a "yes" or "no". Thank you.

Chuck

Yes. If God's Word says that baptism is the point of salvation when our sins are forgiven and we choose not obey Him then we will not go to heaven. God takes His commands seriously. Think about Nadab and Abihu:

Leviticus 10:1 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Or cosider Lot's wife. Many examples could be given that God means what He says and He is a just God. In 2 Kings 5, when did Naaman receive the cleansing from his leporsey? Was it when he belived that God could do it or when he obeyed God's instructions and diped 7 times in the water?

There is nothing keeping 99.9% of people from obeying God all the way and being baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. Since many are not reading the past post I want to make it clear that baptism is no more important than beliving, repenting or confessing, but all must done because combined together they save us, but as the Bible clearly points out it is at the point of baptism that or sins are washed away.

Though I have answered your question before in previous posts, let me state this again. Even if God made an exeption in a case where someone way on their way to be baptized and they died along the way, what would that execption have to do with the other 99.9% of us. Nothing!
 
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cougan

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Absolutely not! John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Where is the importance of baptism stated here? If baptism is the key to salvation that would put man in control of who goes to heaven and not God. That would make my pastor Dr. Mike more important to a man's salvation than Christ. That doesn't sit well with me.

How can baptism put man in control of salvation? Jesus commanded it and we are to submit to it. Your "Pastor" has nothing to do with what happens to you when your are baptized. The only purpose for someone baptzing you is to help you under the water and help pull you out. What happens to you at baptism is done by your faith in the working of God Col. 2:12.

So, submiting to what God has commanded cannot make man or baptism more important than God.
 
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cougan

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Just as oneness is true of an egg, it too is threefold: shell, white and yolk. Baptisms is like this. We're told in Eph. 4 one baptism, but it is called "the doctrine of baptisms" in Hebrews to indicate the separation as part of the foundational training the Hebrews had forsaken.

There is one doctrine of baptisms, made up of three separate and distinct baptisms: blood, spirit and water.

Pretty simple to me. John "preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4). You don't think he was preaching water baptism for the remission sins, do you? For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. He was preaching justification through faith, through the blood of Christ, not water.

You sound like you are a Oneness Pentecostal.

Dave

Dave, I am far from being Oneness Pentecostal. I do not belive that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is a major problem with the idea you are trying to portray with one baptism being 3 different baptism from Eph. 4. Notice the verses:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Using your technique, we need to say that their are really 3 bodies, 3 Spirits, 3 hopes etc.. Get the picture? If you going turn the one baptism into 3 different baptism then you must do it the the rest of these verses, which obviously cannot be done.

I could get creative myself and apply 3 meaning to the one baptism such as it washes away yours sins, unites you with Christ and adds you to the church. But I can add much more such as it answer of good consciene, it when you are buried with Christ and crucified with Him. It is when you put to death you oldself, It is when you are sealed by the Holy Spirit hence receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Its when you are raised up a new creature in Christ.
 
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hopeinGod

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Dave, I am far from being Oneness Pentecostal. I do not belive that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is a major problem with the idea you are trying to portray with one baptism being 3 different baptism from Eph. 4. Notice the verses:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Using your technique, we need to say that their are really 3 bodies, 3 Spirits, 3 hopes etc.. Get the picture? If you going turn the one baptism into 3 different baptism then you must do it the the rest of these verses, which obviously cannot be done.

I could get creative myself and apply 3 meaning to the one baptism such as it washes away yours sins, unites you with Christ and adds you to the church. But I can add much more such as it answer of good consciene, it when you are buried with Christ and crucified with Him. It is when you put to death you oldself, It is when you are sealed by the Holy Spirit hence receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Its when you are raised up a new creature in Christ.

Hi Cougan. I wasn't merely meaning to be creative, but factual. Sure oneness is throughout all those things listed in Eph 4, but that was the point of those verses: oneness. The Godhead is threefold, yet there is one Lord, one God, one Spirit. Did you notice also in Eph. 4 that there are two unities mentioned: unity of the spirit and the unity of faith? There is not just one unity either. Maybe there is a third unity that is yet to be revealed, at least to me.

To take that "one hope" mentioned in Eph. 4 and attempt to make it triune state or concept might be a stretch, but I have to conclude that our threefold makeup, along with God's threefold makeup, is a pattern, just as our salvation is threeford: justification, sanctification and glorification.

Justification for the quickening of the spirit, sanctification for the renewal of the mind or soul, and glorification for the day when this corruptible puts on incorruptible. Each are distinctly separate works, incidentally, wherein I see proof of eternal salvation.

Dave
 
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coolbrees

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How can baptism put man in control of salvation? Jesus commanded it and we are to submit to it. Your "Pastor" has nothing to do with what happens to you when your are baptized. The only purpose for someone baptzing you is to help you under the water and help pull you out. What happens to you at baptism is done by your faith in the working of God Col. 2:12.

So, submiting to what God has commanded cannot make man or baptism more important than God.

God commanded you but you still need a human being to perform your baptism in order for salvation. That would make a man more important to one's salvation than God Himself. How do you not see that?
 
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startrekfan1

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It is necessary to be baptized for the remission of sin.

It washes your sins away, it makes you a part of the lord's body, and it connects your body to the holy spirit and jesus christ's atoning blood.

If you stay faithful and pray for forgiveness, God will not remember your sins and you will be made white as snow.
 
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startrekfan1

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God commanded you but you still need a human being to perform your baptism in order for salvation. That would make a man more important to one's salvation than God Himself. How do you not see that?

but the man is NOT DOING THE ACT OF SALVATION.

He is mearly dunking you under the water, it is the act from GOD that sanctifies and washes.
 
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cougan

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God commanded you but you still need a human being to perform your baptism in order for salvation. That would make a man more important to one's salvation than God Himself. How do you not see that?

No body is performing anything. They are just following the commands of God. As I said, God is doing all the work. What happens to us under the water and when we are raised up is not dependant on the person aiding you in and out of the water. No words even have to be spoken. As long as the person being dipped understands why they are be baptized and they are putting their faith in the working of God (not of man), then they will be saved.

Based on your argument, we would have to say that any commands we carry out could make us more important than God. For instance, we are taught to teach others about God as the angel told Corenlius that Peter would come to him and tell him the words by which he must be saved:

Acts 11:14 'who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'

Since teaching the Gospel is to be done by us humans, then you have to conclude that ones salvation is depentdant on us, which would make us more important than God.

I know you do not belive this when it comes to teaching the Good News, and you should be able to see it that submiting to baptism does not make us greater than God.

Here I just created a chart about baptism that might be helpful.

baptsm chart.gif
 
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AprilSixth

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It seems as though many Christians today pick and choose verses in which they decide to practice.
One deceitful idea that is going on within the Christian faith is that confession and belief alone leads one to salvation. This is not true. Baptism is also essential to salvation. It reads in James 2:18-20 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
This is one piece of Scripture that explains to us as Christians that merely confessing Christ and God does not mean that much, because even Satan and demons confess that there is a God. There is more that we need to do in order to receive God's gift of salvation.
 
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Paul1965

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"Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." Somewhere in the Bible. Man is always looking for things on the outside as evidence that a person is saved. God judges the inside of us, our heart. Only God truly knows our heart. I believe in we are saved by faith alone. I believe hearing the word, repentance, belief, confession, and baptism are all part of faith. I think repentance is a change of mind about ourselves and our sin and the Lord. Without this change of mind there is no faith. Without belief in Christ there is no faith. Although confession is sometime external, sometimes it can be between you and God. In the New Testament, Baptism was something that accompanied the other elements of faith. It was something that was just as part of conversion, and thus closely linked to salvation. Although the other elements of faith are or can be internal, baptism is primarily external. These days it has become complicated. So many different views of baptism: infant, child, adult, sprinkling, pouring, immersion. I always tend to go to John 3:16, and want to believe baptism is not required for salvation. My children a pre-teen age, and are believers. They have not yet been baptized, which we are planning soon. If they should die between now and then, I believe they will be saved. Also, my youngest son is in a wheelchair and full immersion is not possible. My pastor believes that sprinkling or pouring will be honored by God. In summary, I believe it is possible to be save without having been baptized. However, we should not forsake the ordinace of baptism and make it of the same importance as the New Testament Church of the 1st century.
 
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cougan

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"Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." Somewhere in the Bible. Man is always looking for things on the outside as evidence that a person is saved. God judges the inside of us, our heart. Only God truly knows our heart. I believe in we are saved by faith alone. I believe hearing the word, repentance, belief, confession, and baptism are all part of faith. I think repentance is a change of mind about ourselves and our sin and the Lord. Without this change of mind there is no faith. Without belief in Christ there is no faith. Although confession is sometime external, sometimes it can be between you and God. In the New Testament, Baptism was something that accompanied the other elements of faith. It was something that was just as part of conversion, and thus closely linked to salvation. Although the other elements of faith are or can be internal, baptism is primarily external. These days it has become complicated. So many different views of baptism: infant, child, adult, sprinkling, pouring, immersion. I always tend to go to John 3:16, and want to believe baptism is not required for salvation. My children a pre-teen age, and are believers. They have not yet been baptized, which we are planning soon. If they should die between now and then, I believe they will be saved. Also, my youngest son is in a wheelchair and full immersion is not possible. My pastor believes that sprinkling or pouring will be honored by God. In summary, I believe it is possible to be save without having been baptized. However, we should not forsake the ordinace of baptism and make it of the same importance as the New Testament Church of the 1st century.

I was with you until you said we are saved by faith alone. Produce the Scripture that says we are saved by faith ALONE. I promise you cannot find one. If you are really interested in what the Bible says, instead of what you feel or think, please look back at my previous posts including the chart I posted, and you will see everything I have said backed up by what the Bible actually says. I do not want anyone to belive that baptism is neccessary for salvation because I said, but I want them to belive what Scriptures say.

I wish I were I were wrong about baptism and that all people could be saved by faith alone or by saying a sinner's prayer, which does not exist in Scripture, but that is is not what the Bible teaches.

Why can you not understand clear passages such as:

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If another word like faith, confeses were in the place of the words, you have no probelm saying that faith and confessing Jesus as Lord are neccessary to be save, but since you have been taught that baptism is not part of God's plan of salvation, you do not want to see that baptism does save us. This is not my opinion it is the Word of God. You either believe it or not.

I want you to be honest. Do these Scriptures teach that baptism saves and is for the remission of sins? I know you will be tempted to explain it away, but if you have an honest heart you know that the Scriptures prove that baptism is just a essential for salvation as faith.

As far at not being able to baptize your sin because he is in a wheel chair, I have never seen that keep anyone from being immersed. You just put them into the water and dunk them.
 
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Paul1965

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I was with you until you said we are saved by faith alone. Produce the Scripture that says we are saved by faith ALONE. I promise you cannot find one. If you are really interested in what the Bible says, instead of what you feel or think, please look back at my previous posts including the chart I posted, and you will see everything I have said backed up by what the Bible actually says. I do not want anyone to belive that baptism is neccessary for salvation because I said, but I want them to belive what Scriptures say.

I wish I were I were wrong about baptism and that all people could be saved by faith alone or by saying a sinner's prayer, which does not exist in Scripture, but that is is not what the Bible teaches.

Why can you not understand clear passages such as:

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If another word like faith, confeses were in the place of the words, you have no probelm saying that faith and confessing Jesus as Lord are neccessary to be save, but since you have been taught that baptism is not part of God's plan of salvation, you do not want to see that baptism does save us. This is not my opinion it is the Word of God. You either believe it or not.

I want you to be honest. Do these Scriptures teach that baptism saves and is for the remission of sins? I know you will be tempted to explain it away, but if you have an honest heart you know that the Scriptures prove that baptism is just a essential for salvation as faith.

As far at not being able to baptize your sin because he is in a wheel chair, I have never seen that keep anyone from being immersed. You just put them into the water and dunk them.

I know of the verses you qoute. I guess I'm thinking of the verse: "By grace are you saved through faith,not of works lest anyone boast." This verse points to faith alone I think. As I stated in my previous post, I believe that hearing the word, repentance, confession, and baptism are all elements of faith. Does that mean that God will reject someone who is not baptized? You say yes. I say I don't know. Then again, why would a believer not be baptized? That's why I believe in returning to the New Testament standard of baptism upon/or part of conversion. Actually, I don't think God says, "unless you are baptized you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." But that's what you are saying! I'm not trying to argue, as I am a very strong proponent of baptism of a believer by immersion! I was baptized when I was 30 at a church of Christ. I suspect that's your church, cougan! I was involved in Restoration Movement Churches for 10 years. I am now part of Church of God (Anderson) movement. It does not exclude Christians that are from denominations, but embraces them as brothers and sisters in Christ. They are pro-baptism by immersion. The central theme is salvation through Jesus Christ. Obviously this debate has been going on for centuries. People have different opinions and they must be respected. I think good debate on the topic is valid though! You definitley have a valid arguement for you position, cougan! By the way, my son has Cerebral Palsey and is unable to hold his breath at command or at will. What do you think about immersion for him except putting his head under the water?:wave:
 
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