I do not believe it ever should have grown out from Israel. If our unbelief is what got us cut off, what exactly are we to believe in order to be grafted back on?
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Hebrews
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"Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of G-d in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all on in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:23-29
Abraham believed in G-d without being a witness to the events at Sinai several hundred years later but the implication is that because Abraham believed in G-d without the full extent of the law then so can all of humanity for faith is better then fulfilling rules for their own sake, or so the Gospel says. Again we Jews would disagree because Abraham had faith because he understood that G-d is law and hence that the Torah would be considered G-d's supreme law. The Jewish people as a whole act in the position of the priest and the world would be the people of the priest. So in essence the law of Moses is still in effect, as I believe most "Messianic Jews" would agree to a certin extent, and hence we Jews have an obligation to fulfill it until the end of time.
"For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery (in the law)." Galatians 5:1
Of course Jesus Christ brings up the trinity and so the concept of grace fulfilled in Christ's death is seen as him becoming the "king of kings" and so when Paul is speaking in "The Letter to the Galatians" he is telling them to see the Torah as a bridge in the coming of Christ and that because Christ has come the world is no longer subject to "the law" and are now under the law of salvation in Jesus. Or at least that is how I am reading the text.
How can the Torah be considered slavery if G-d presented it to Moses on Mount Sinai and why would G-d not have simply presented the Gospel or have sent Christ 1500 years before He did in order to save humanity?
Abraham believed in G-d without being a witness to the events at Sinai several hundred years later but the implication is that because Abraham believed in G-d without the full extent of the law then so can all of humanity for faith is better then fulfilling rules for their own sake, or so the Gospel says. Again we Jews would disagree because Abraham had faith because he understood that G-d is law and hence that the Torah would be considered G-d's supreme law. The Jewish people as a whole act in the position of the priest and the world would be the people of the priest. So in essence the law of Moses is still in effect, as I believe most "Messianic Jews" would agree to a certin extent, and hence we Jews have an obligation to fulfill it until the end of time.
"For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery (in the law)." Galatians 5:1
Of course Jesus Christ brings up the trinity and so the concept of grace fulfilled in Christ's death is seen as him becoming the "king of kings" and so when Paul is speaking in "The Letter to the Galatians" he is telling them to see the Torah as a bridge in the coming of Christ and that because Christ has come the world is no longer subject to "the law" and are now under the law of salvation in Jesus. Or at least that is how I am reading the text.
How can the Torah be considered slavery if G-d presented it to Moses on Mount Sinai and why would G-d not have simply presented the Gospel or have sent Christ 1500 years before He did in order to save humanity?
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"God is Law"? Where does it say that- without interpretations cast upon any text- in the Torah? I know what you are saying, but the law is given to men...so while God is the source of law and a reflection of His character He is more than that.
The NT is the continuation of God's process of revelation (self-disclosure) that began in Eden. In the NT, we are told that God is Love. (Not "love is God") Our understanding is kind of deep on that- too deep for this forum, but we all know that He has other attributes.
Your comments are ok as far as human philosophy goes, but really, they cast interpretations upon texts rather than read them as they are. By emphasizing the "law" of God one de-emphasizes His mercy.
No one can fulfill the Torah- this is called being realistic. Saying that Jews are obligated to fulfill it doesn't make sense on that basis alone. If we are obligated to fulfill every part of it- then start stoning people, killing animals and so forth....the facts stand in the way of the ideal. The Rabbis have invented- since Messiah has come- a religion that reads well, but it simply falls short of the Torah. It is not the Torah religion- it is a religion that has nostalgic connections to the Torah. The Messiah's religion is harder to live by, yet it is available to all. God Himself as Lord of history has made the whole Torah impossible to fulfill.
Anyway- the discussion could ask : How is the law "fulfilled"? This is important. Is it fulfilled by merely keeping it properly (impossible for any human) or is it fulfilled when not just faithfully kept but also brought to its full meaning (as the NT teaches)?
I don't really know what you are saying, but you need to remember that Paul is addressing a congregation- largely Gentile- that was being told they had to be circumcised to follow Jesus. This is not the Gospel, nor is it in the Torah. Paul is simply defending both. Read Galatians in the light of Acts 15 etc.
Two different questions there. First of all, according to the whole NT the law is more like a marriage than slavery- it is a binding. No English translation will be precise on this...but slavery is merely one acceptable translation of the Greek word there. Bondage is ok too. Israel was married to HaShem, and she was not a very good bride. She was adulterous. The laws of the marriage covenant were not kept. God knew this from the start, from eternity. He sent His Son to reconsile us to Himself. His Son a holy man offered to God, and also God offered to man. That makes Him both High Priest and sacrifice.
Killing an animal was merely a symbol to show us about the offence of sin and its just punishment. God Himself alone can take sins away, and this new covenant by the blood of the Cross is honoured and sealed with blood by God Himself. This is just as the covenant with Abraham was. Abraham and his seed could never honour the covenant perfectly so God made it Himself (Gen 15).
This is a mystery, prophecied in the Tanakh (as seen in ancient texts) but revealed in its fullness on earth at God's appointed time. God has likewise joined the church to His Son, and ingrafted this church spiritually into faithful Israel. Therefore the Bride of Messiah has always been Israel and now also Gentiles.
Perhaps God's timing of the Cross is a mystery to us mere humans, but it was the right time according to Him. The whole world has never been the same since and I think even Christianity's harshest critics would agree.
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"The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel cound not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of G-d, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with G-d. In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!
Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only be believing in Christ. Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. But whenever someone turns to the L-rd, the veil is taken away. For the L-rd is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the L-rd is, there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the L-rd. And the L-rd - who is the Spirit - makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image." - 2 Corinthians 3:7-18
This verse talks about the "Spirit of the L-rd" which is the "holy spirit" in the trinity and thus by stating that the glory of G-d is a seperate attribute of G-d one thus takes away His complete unity and makes it something else. This is not Monotheism and it is not taught in the Torah. It also states, "So if the old way, which has been replaced..."! This is a clear statement that the Torah was replaced and not fulfilled as you all claim. Now I am not a Christian so I cannot put Jesus into the bigger picture but it seems clear from the "New Testament" that Christian theology does not mend with its supposed forebarrer, Judaism, for how can the "old law" be replaced when the "new law" was based on a misconception of the origional law? I know I might be repeating things but I am simply trying to tie in both text's to see how and why they [should] fit against each other.
"I will ratify My covenant between Me and you and between your offspring after you, throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d to you and to your offspring after you." - Genesis 17:7
So how can the "old way" not be glorious when it brought humanity into focus with G-d by forcing people to witness G-d in history at Sinai? G-d is the law that He gave to all of humanity and for that reason He is both judge and jury. His law is FOREVER!
Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only be believing in Christ. Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. But whenever someone turns to the L-rd, the veil is taken away. For the L-rd is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the L-rd is, there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the L-rd. And the L-rd - who is the Spirit - makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image." - 2 Corinthians 3:7-18
This verse talks about the "Spirit of the L-rd" which is the "holy spirit" in the trinity and thus by stating that the glory of G-d is a seperate attribute of G-d one thus takes away His complete unity and makes it something else. This is not Monotheism and it is not taught in the Torah. It also states, "So if the old way, which has been replaced..."! This is a clear statement that the Torah was replaced and not fulfilled as you all claim. Now I am not a Christian so I cannot put Jesus into the bigger picture but it seems clear from the "New Testament" that Christian theology does not mend with its supposed forebarrer, Judaism, for how can the "old law" be replaced when the "new law" was based on a misconception of the origional law? I know I might be repeating things but I am simply trying to tie in both text's to see how and why they [should] fit against each other.
"I will ratify My covenant between Me and you and between your offspring after you, throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d to you and to your offspring after you." - Genesis 17:7
So how can the "old way" not be glorious when it brought humanity into focus with G-d by forcing people to witness G-d in history at Sinai? G-d is the law that He gave to all of humanity and for that reason He is both judge and jury. His law is FOREVER!
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I believe the "old" part of the way is in the sacrificial system, where that which is symbolic ... Genesis 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together... even Abraham knew would have its day in prophectic reality...
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
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2 King
By His Wounds We Are Healed
I was thinking on Romans 2:29 some days ago....And someone told me recently about what they believed it meant. So I thanked that person for their view, because it was face valued sense and I had been missing it all this time.
I always thought that "But he is a Jew which is one inwardly…" meant
"Who has an internal work of grace upon his soul" : who has not only an outward name, but an inward nature; not the law of God in the hand, but in the heart; not an external righteousness only, but internal holiness; and who is not a mere outward court worshipper, but a worshipper of God in Spirit and in truth.
I also am aware that the Jews have a saying themselves,
I always thought that "But he is a Jew which is one inwardly…" meant
"Who has an internal work of grace upon his soul" : who has not only an outward name, but an inward nature; not the law of God in the hand, but in the heart; not an external righteousness only, but internal holiness; and who is not a mere outward court worshipper, but a worshipper of God in Spirit and in truth.
I also am aware that the Jews have a saying themselves,
``that whosoever denies idolatry, (ydwhy arqn) , "is called a Jew":''
so that, according to them, this is a name that is not confined to themselves, but belongs to all such who truly fear and worship God; and they say, in the same place, that Pharaoh's daughter was called (tydwhy) , "a Jewess", because she denied idolatry, and went down to wash herself from the idols of her father's house. And elsewhere,
``that faith does not depend upon circumcision, but upon the heart: he that believes not as he should, circumcision does not make him a Jew; and he that believes as he ought, he indeed is a Jew, though he is not circumcised.''
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Christianity makes no such interpretation- you have demonstrated that you don't understand Christian orthodoxy on this point, I'm sorry to have to say. Furthermore, the way some Jews understand the sefirot could also fall under the accusation that it separates the attributes of God and thus is not "taught in the Torah".
You're now teaching Christianity to Christians based on your non-Christian interpretation of the NT. Let's bring it back a gear. Like I said, you need to tell us what you understand by the term "fulfilled".
You need to give more specific examples, because your question is a little vague. Also, I would recommend a decent translation too, unless you are familiar with Koine Greek.
Context: the Covenant mentioned here is "to be a God to you and to your seed after you. And I will give the land to you in which you are a stranger, and to your seed after you, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession. And I will be their God." v. 7, 8
The Covenant mentioned in Gen 17 is still in effect. It is between Abraham's seed and God. The Covenant- in context- mentioned is:
"Gen 17:10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you. Every male child among you shall be circumcised."
You seem to be applying it out of context. The Covenant here is for Elohim to be Am Israel's God, and them to be given Eretz Israel and the sign of that Covenant is to give your male kids a bris! This is still in effect. I don't think anyone here disputes that, do they?
As you know, Christianity makes it clear that Gentiles do not need to be circumcised for the obvious reasons (read Galatians)- yet it is clear that Jews were still circumcised in the ancient church (Acts 16:1-3). This of course is standard Judaism. However, in the New Covenant, circumcision does not make you righteous before God, just as it did not in the times of Abraham. It establishes, declares and demonstrates a relationship with God. It is a sign of a covenant, not a cleanser of the heart. Merely observing the signs of covenants outwardly cannot bring righteousness. One must love God wholly by dedicating one's heart, mind and soul to Him, love one's neighbour as oneself and only then will all the mitzvot and so forth will become fruitful and meaningful. That's the NT understanding.
The laws of Messiah in the NT are in many ways far greater a call to holiness than those of the Mosaic Covenant. They build on Torah, but call for a greater commitment that begins on the inside. Love your enemies, don't get divorced so easily, turn the other cheek, carry your neighbour's burdens, don't even look at someone from the opposite gender with lust etc.
We believe no one can fulfill or faithfully keep the whole Torah or has done so (except Messiah Himself), nor the amplified version of it (the Laws of Messiah,) let alone any other interpretations of it. We need God's help. We need His sacrifice for us, and we need a new heart that follows after Him (just as David said!)
Anyway...I'm rambling.
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Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment that I command you today -- it is not hidden from you and it is not distant. It is not in heaven, [for you] to say, "Who can ascend to the heaven for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?" Nor is it across the sea, [for you] to say, "Who can cross to the other side of the sea for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?" Rather, the matter is very near to you -- in your mouth and your heart -- to perform it.
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Yes- they are close...but still no one person can fulfill the whole Torah. eg. some laws only priests can carry out, some are meant for Gentiles, etc. Can you name one person who fulfilled each commandment without blemish for his or her entire life?
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The one you do, diligently, yourself!
Seriosuly though, there are hundreds of versions on the market -I usually say to students that they should find one that they can read and understand easily - then put it back on the shelf and find one that challenges them. In that way it will push you to explore much more deeply the whole word of G_d not just the latter testament, and will, over time, allow you to see so much more that would, otherwise, have been hidden from you in the comfort of a version that holds no challenge for you.
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You can browse most of them from either of these sites before making a cash investment into any one:
Crosswalk.com
biblegateway.com
The first link also has the options of choosing a KJV or NAS Strong's Numbered version, where you can see how the translators did the translating.
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You can browse most of them from either of these sites before making a cash investment into any one:
Crosswalk.com
biblegateway.com
The first link also has the options of choosing a KJV or NAS Strong's Numbered version, where you can see how the translators did the translating.
Thanks for the info.
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The 613 commandments were created to guide the Jewish people in order to create Israel, the nation. In order for this to work each section of Jewish society was given a role to play but those commandments that applied to each group was to be followed and so the entire Jewish nation worked for G-d. Yet most of the laws were to be followed by every single Jew, man or woman, young or old. And those laws that were to be followed by everyone, which was most of the laws, indeed were followed.
The reason G-d chose the Jews was because, (1) we said we would obey and (2) He knew we would; and so it would be doubful if most Christians follow the 10 commandments let alone even know that their are 613 for Jews. The Gospels do not discount the fact that the laws are to be obeyed without question.
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8:1
Here is the whole point of what we have been saying: we do have just such a cohen gadol as has been described. And he does sit at the right hand of HaG'dulah in heaven. 2 There he serves in the Holy Place, that is, in the true Tent of Meeting, the one erected not by human beings but by ADONAI. 3 For every cohen gadol is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so this cohen gadol too has to have something he can offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he wouldn't be a cohen at all, since there already are cohanim offering the gifts required by the Torah.
8:5
But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain."
..........................
I am curious about this, what do Jews think about God's heavenly pattern that Moses copied for the earthly services? What kind of services do they see happening before God in His Holy Temple in heaven?
Here is the whole point of what we have been saying: we do have just such a cohen gadol as has been described. And he does sit at the right hand of HaG'dulah in heaven. 2 There he serves in the Holy Place, that is, in the true Tent of Meeting, the one erected not by human beings but by ADONAI. 3 For every cohen gadol is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so this cohen gadol too has to have something he can offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he wouldn't be a cohen at all, since there already are cohanim offering the gifts required by the Torah.
8:5
But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain."
..........................
I am curious about this, what do Jews think about God's heavenly pattern that Moses copied for the earthly services? What kind of services do they see happening before God in His Holy Temple in heaven?
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"The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves. The sacrifices under that system were repeated again and again, year after year, but they were never able to provide perfect cleansing for those who came to worship. If they could have provided perfect cleansing, the sacrifices would have been stopped, for the worshipers would have been purified once for all time, and their feelings of guilt would have disappeard. But instead, those sacrifices actually reminded them of their sins year after year. For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. That is why, when Christ came into the world, he said to G-d,
'You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings. But you have given me a body to offer. You were not pleased with burnt offerings or other offerings for sin. Then I said, 'Look, I have come to do your will, O G-d - as is written about me in the scriptures.'
First, Christ said, 'You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings or burnt offerings or other offerings for sin, nor were you pleased with them' (although they are required by the law of Moses). Then he said, 'Look, I have come to do your will.' He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect. For G-d's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifices of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Under the old covenant, the priest stands and ministers before the alter day after day, offering the same sacrifices again and again, which can never take away sins. But our High Priest offered himself to G-d as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at G-d's right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy. And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says,
'This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the L-rd: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.'
Then he says,
'I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.'
And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices." - Hebrews 10:1-18
Exodus 34-40 covers the events in which G-d instructs Moses to build the Tabernacle. Leviticus 1-9 deals with the different types of sin offering in the Tabernacle. I would type it all but it would take too long and I would time-out so I leave it to whomever wishes to read it to do so.
"HASHEM spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the entire assembly of the Children of Israel and say to them: You shall be holy, for holy am I, HASHEM, your G-d." Leviticus 19:1-2
In other words if G-d commanded Moses and the assembly of Israel to carry out sin offerings then He did so for a reason. However, today this poses a problem because in order for offerings to be carried out the Temple in Jerusalem must exist and so the Dome of the Rock must be destroyed so that Israel can be revived as a nation of G-d and for G-d once again, for all time.
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I think you are being a bit disingenuous here, Tanakh. This question you keep asking has been answered under several guises. Just to summarise - there is now no need for sacrifices as per Moshe etc because G_d provided Yeshua to pay the price, to take the sin of the world upon himself (in much the same way as the goat was used in Temple days to take the sin of Y'srael). Your question is, therefore, one to which you have been given the answer more than once. If your faith dis-allows such an answer then it is pointless to keep asking the same question, albeit wrappped in different words each time, because you wll keep getting the same answer, albeit wrapped in different words, as well!
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You can't have an each way bet, Tanakh. Either you are forgiven NOW without the shedding of blood or you are not. Your rabbis say you are forgiven without animal sacrifices.....if this is so, then surely rebuilding the Temple to kill innocent animals is unnecessary, no?
(Christianity alone tells us why God no longer makes available the killing of animals as sin offerings).
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I understand this is a faith forward until it can be carried out again when the Temple is rebult. I really wanted you to focus in on the fact that Moses when instructed on building the tabernacle and all the services instituted, he was informed then that it was a pattern of what is going on in heaven on our behalf. My focus and question is the "ideology or theology" of the goings on in heaven.. the type of this anti-type on earth. How do you see it?
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